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      07-20-2011, 02:54 PM   #573
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Question for all..
How would meth injection impact temps? Anyone try it? Will I be the first?
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      07-20-2011, 03:06 PM   #574
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Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
BIG WASTE OF MONEY, for performance, or cooling. None of the professional racers have touched any component from that kit. HP autowerks used a 3L liter radiator, with stock oil cooler, pushing almost 500 Horse. The trick was with the distilled water + coolant additive mix. ER used their upgraded oil cooler, stock radiator + distilled water & Motul Mocool.

I don't know where your getting this PPK idea from. No one on this thread has used that stuff on the track.

on a lighter note: WOOHOOO! 1,000th post! I'm a major now!
What if we just get the secondary radiator for $400, would that be worth it compared to an aftermarket radiator for $1k? Of course, I'd be interested in HP Autowerk's radiator but it's not released yet. Also, which 335i (HP Autowerk vs. ER) had better overall cooling and better track times?
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      07-20-2011, 03:08 PM   #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dsbj View Post
Question for all..
How would meth injection impact temps? Anyone try it? Will I be the first?
methanol is great .

Two things on the car can reduce power.
1. high IATs = reduced timing (also creates more heat as combustion is not as efficient)
2. reduced boost

I dont believe our cars start dialing back boost till 280F to 285F oil temps. So if you keep oil temps below that, youll only experience high IATs reducing timing. In addition to upgraded FMICs or possibly good CAIs, adding methanol adresses the issue of high IATs very effectively(much better than FMICs). Thus, it helps the car produce consistant power on the track by holding IATs consistantly low.

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Also, which 335i (HP Autowerk vs. ER) had better overall cooling and better track times?
I dont think theres any information on HP autowerks radiator performance. I wish they would release stuff for us.... its been well over a year
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      07-20-2011, 03:09 PM   #576
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so i went to the track past saturday to pocono raceway with nasa, i was completely fine the 1st session, blowing by S4 and M3s.....the 2nd session after 1 lap car went into limp mode, my oil temp was at 240 and I thought maybe my water temp was too high so i left the hood up and put on max-cool mode on my jb4 went out again and the whole time i was on limp mode, my tech thinks i have a vanos problem but ill have to scan the car and see what happens.
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      07-20-2011, 11:48 PM   #577
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Probably Vanos or HPFP if its not oil/coolant temps.
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      07-21-2011, 11:20 AM   #578
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sejzilla View Post
so i went to the track past saturday to pocono raceway with nasa, i was completely fine the 1st session, blowing by S4 and M3s.....the 2nd session after 1 lap car went into limp mode, my oil temp was at 240 and I thought maybe my water temp was too high so i left the hood up and put on max-cool mode on my jb4 went out again and the whole time i was on limp mode, my tech thinks i have a vanos problem but ill have to scan the car and see what happens.
you need to scan it to know for sure, either via JB4 or BT.

I tried maxcool on 1 session out of 5 on my last event, no difference. Water temps stayed under control for the entire day but that's specifically with distilled + mocool, not antifreeze mix.
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      07-21-2011, 11:51 AM   #579
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if i have autoclear on my jb4 wouldnt it have deleted all my codes already tho?
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      07-21-2011, 11:57 AM   #580
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if i have autoclear on my jb4 wouldnt it have deleted all my codes already tho?
yes, autoclear is not a good option for track/troubleshooting purposes
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      07-21-2011, 01:53 PM   #581
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Go drive it- they should come back. Take off the JB4 entirely. then dealer it. Could be anything. It happened to me, it was the turbos- one of my snails failed, and a vano issue. warranty took care of it.
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      07-21-2011, 02:49 PM   #582
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well i have a catless dp with no o2 sim so ill get a CEL if i dont have autoclear on it, and I have been driving the car and aggressively too, to see if the limp mode comes back but it hasnt....
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      07-22-2011, 03:19 PM   #583
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Much to the chagrin of my compatriots...

I am posting my original message below.

After long consideration I decided that I am going to get the BMW PPK for my car. I know that the solutions indicated in this thread say diluted coolant (still a good idea) and more oil cooling, but based on the costs of an aftermarket oil cooler and the potential impact to my warranty I thought I would try out the PPK as a FIRST course of action.

To answer the obvious question - WHY????????
  • I don't like to mod cars in the first place - OEM engineering means something to me
  • Additional water cooling should provide significant results based on the graphs indicating that water temps have such a great impact on reduced power events
  • All of the information I could find suggesting the PPK would not work was hearsay, and the evidence I found on the 1M forums (Especially from Dan Parker) made be believe this is a viable potential solution
  • What the heck - it even gives me a touch more power to boot.

I am off to Mid Ohio and Road America in Mid August. Since my install of the PPK should happen in early August I will post my results when I return from these events. I am an advanced DE instructor and have numerous days at Mid-Ohio (I can turn a 1:46 in the 335i stock on Hankook Ventus RS3s - Spec Miata turns about a 1:50)

-Tom

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Originally Posted by 968tomr View Post
So, I found that 90 degree heat makes for 16 minutes of fun (and no more).

I have followed this thread with a great deal of interest as I had every intention of selling my beloved Porsche 968 and Daily Driving and Fun Driving my 335i. This proposition only works for me if I can rely on my 3er to deliver the goods for more than 16 minutes at a time. In 75 degree heat I can get enough track time to run until I am out of gas, but in 90 degree heat, I can only get in 16 minutes.

So, I have seen the solutions offered here include:
  • Larger oil cooler
  • Remove the coolant or run a more diluted mixture

My questions though is this. Does the BMW Performance Power Kit solve the temperature issue? The kit contains all of the additional cooling hardware and software that is found on the z435is, 335is, and 1M. I would think (like to believe) that BMW would not let an M product out of the door that could not lap for days on end without any trouble at all.

Does anyone here have any data or information related to this kit (the Performance Power Kit) or these cars and there ability to handle track days in the heat?

It is an expensive proposition to install the PPK, but the value proposition for me is there if it will accomplish what the Stett cooler does, while maintaining my CPO warranty and coming with a 2 year warranty all its own.

Thanks for the feedback (and the flames - if I read anything about the PPK over at the N54 turbo engine forums it is always about how the PPK doesn't make the horsepower - and my focus is on removing more heat).

-Tom
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      07-22-2011, 08:52 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 968tomr View Post
I am off to Mid Ohio and Road America in Mid August. Since my install of the PPK should happen in early August I will post my results when I return from these events. I am an advanced DE instructor and have numerous days at Mid-Ohio (I can turn a 1:46 in the 335i stock on Hankook Ventus RS3s - Spec Miata turns about a 1:50)

-Tom
Nice. I eagerly await your news.
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      07-23-2011, 08:48 AM   #585
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if limp mode never came back on after track day...is it possible that it was the water temp not the vanos problem? because ive been driving the car for a week now and i have no more limp modes what so ever....
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      07-23-2011, 09:27 AM   #586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 968tomr View Post
I am posting my original message below.

I am off to Mid Ohio and Road America in Mid August. Since my install of the PPK should happen in early August I will post my results when I return from these events. I am an advanced DE instructor and have numerous days at Mid-Ohio (I can turn a 1:46 in the 335i stock on Hankook Ventus RS3s - Spec Miata turns about a 1:50)

-Tom
Good luck with the PPK and let us know how it performs. I'm more interested in how you're turning sub-specMiata lap times with a 335i without inducing limp modes. Are you referring to a single fast lap?
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      07-23-2011, 09:35 AM   #587
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if limp mode never came back on after track day...is it possible that it was the water temp not the vanos problem? because ive been driving the car for a week now and i have no more limp modes what so ever....
it's very difficult to reproduce a full-length HPDE-style session with street driving. I've never had limp modes outside the track no matter what the temps or driving style... If no errors return after you've cleared everything, you may need to wait for your next event, disable autoclear, ignore the CEL, and read codes after every session (either via pre-wired USB cable in glove comp or by running with the cowl off).

As far as water temps go, map your water temps to the fuel gauge next time for later review. I've found the dash display hack to work but the numbers are not readable on video (via GoPro) and watching the dash constantly on an HPDE run is not a good idea.
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      07-24-2011, 08:51 AM   #588
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sejzilla View Post
if limp mode never came back on after track day...is it possible that it was the water temp not the vanos problem? because ive been driving the car for a week now and i have no more limp modes what so ever....
I had the vanos solenoid replaced on mine after two limp modes. The first I ignored the second happened 1month later. I brought her in and they diagnosed the issue and reaced the solenoid under warranty.

You should bring it in to the dealer. Better safe than sorry.
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      07-25-2011, 07:20 AM   #589
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Alright folks,

I've been following this thread for a while now gathering information and learning about the overheating/limp mode issues of our engines on the track. While I have not ever taken my car to a real track yet, I do believe that I have some interesting information to contribute:

Last week Chicago (and other part of the country) was hit by a serious heat wave. On couple of days I've seen 100+F daytime temperatures which for Chicago is quite hot. Pair that with 70+% humidity and you have some really nasty weather when it comes to cars.

When I am stuck in traffic in Chicago in such weather conditions, my oil temps will hover at the 240-250F mark, but never exceed that. I have the stock oil cooler and 6MT. I don't have any additional cooling modifications whatsoever. I do also have the Rixter P3 boost gauge which allows me to monitor all kinds of CAN bus data including engine coolant temperature. On a hot day, in traffic, the coolant temperature will go as high as 230-240F.

Last week, it got so hot, that I had to turn on the AC. And to my surprise, the AC dropped BOTH the coolant temperature AND the oil temperature to 180-190F. I was surprised! Not only that this works in traffic, but it also works while romping on the gas pedal on the highway! I did series of WOT pulls from 20mph up to 90 mph and not once did the coolant and oil temps went above 190F. Again, I had the AC on the whole time and the fan was on the 4th speed.

What I think is worth noting here is this:

* The oil temperatures will follow closely the coolant temperatures. That Stett Oil cooler with the 180F thermostat is just a temporary patch. Once the coolant temps get up to 240, there is no way to keep the oil temps at 180F.

* It will be extremely beneficial for track people to cool off their engines by running their cars with AC on. Not only this will circulate the oil through the oil cooler, thus cooling it, but it will drop BOTH the coolant and oil temps to 180-190F.

* If we want to improve our cars to last longer in the track, we should be concentrating on better radiators, cooling fans and airflow to the radiators. I think that going down the path of improving oil cooling is not beneficial unless your car did not come with stock oil cooler.


If someone is willing to test my theory, that would be awesome. Do a track day with your AC on, windows closed and blower fan on speed 4 or higher. You will be amazed.
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Last edited by vasillalov; 07-25-2011 at 07:26 AM.
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      07-25-2011, 11:04 AM   #590
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Alright folks,
What I think is worth noting here is this:

* The oil temperatures will follow closely the coolant temperatures.
Not at the track. Oil temps rise and level off. Water temps drop on the straights and increase on turns by as much as 10C deltas.

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That Stett Oil cooler with the 180F thermostat is just a temporary patch. Once the coolant temps get up to 240, there is no way to keep the oil temps at 180F.
Quite the opposite. Both the STETT and the ER OCs have proven to hold oil temps under control, with the STETT stg2 going no higher than 260F with very aggressive track driving. The purpose of the 180F thermostat is not track-related, it's used primarily to warm up oil fast in the winter. The thermostat opens at the track either at the false grid or by lap 1 at the latest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
* It will be extremely beneficial for track people to cool off their engines by running their cars with AC on. Not only this will circulate the oil through the oil cooler, thus cooling it, but it will drop BOTH the coolant and oil temps to 180-190F.

If someone is willing to test my theory, that would be awesome. Do a track day with your AC on, windows closed and blower fan on speed 4 or higher. You will be amazed.
While I can't explain why you're seeing that behavior it's certainly worth testing, it's a simple test for any of us the next time we're out there.

Max blower fan speed was tested recently by enabling maxcool on and driving the water pump and fan at maximum with no reduction in water temps. And an FYI, we run at the track with windows down
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      07-25-2011, 11:23 AM   #591
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Turning on the A/C, especially in traffic, may temporarily bring down temperatures as the auxiliary fans are always on when the A/C is on to move air past the condenser and hence also move air past the radiator. However, this will only be temporary and you'd notice the difference at idle with no load on the engine. A/C usage actually increases the load and heat output of an engine as the compressor is putting a decent strain on the engine when it kicks on.

Additionally, a lot of A/C systems will shut off above a certain RPM anyway to save the strain on the compressor and it may not really kick on at the track - although I haven't confirmed there is a shut off at a certain RPM on the E9Xs.

I do turn the A/C on right away after I come out of a session though as it turns the fans on while I'm idling around and going through the pit and paddock and brings more air through the radiator at low speeds. At high speeds and high loads on the track, I don't think the A/C will help too much... But it's worth trying if someone wants to.
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      07-25-2011, 12:09 PM   #592
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Cool cool. I am only sharing my experience and observations. I generally watch my oil and coolant temps like a hawk regardless of where I drive so it was very easy to notice something like this.

Quote:
Turning on the A/C, especially in traffic, may temporarily bring down temperatures as the auxiliary fans are always on when the A/C is on to move air past the condenser and hence also move air past the radiator. However, this will only be temporary and you'd notice the difference at idle with no load on the engine.
I respectfully disagree. When I noticed the unusually lower oil and coolant temps it was a day when I spent just over 4 hours of continuous driving which included in-down-town traffic, highway driving with a few series of WOT pulls and some generally slower city driving (you know, inner city back streets, stop sign to stop sign). Not once for that period of time did the oil and coolant temps rise above 190F.

I guess what I am trying to say is that I believe that managing coolant temperatures is far more important than managing the oil temperatures. It seems that if we have sufficient radiator cooling capacity, the entire engine block will be cooler overall. This in turn will help manage the oil temps naturally.

Another reason why I believe that the coolant temps govern the oil temps is because there is FAR more coolant by volume than there is oil. Also, the radiator is far bigger than the oil cooler. You'd expect to see the coolant temps to variate more than the oil temps which seems to be the case. Also, the entire engine block is water jacketed, so if you have cooler engine block, the oil won't get heated up as much when it is draining.

That's my theory and experience. My car is currently being serviced and I can't retest it, but I am fairly confident that my tests would be easily replicated.

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      07-25-2011, 12:30 PM   #593
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On an automatic it's really important to get the coolant temps down since the radiator shares some heat exchange with the trans fluid. On my manual I never got the coolant hot enough to get the car to limp even on a 95 degree day (although I'm a novice). The oil I got to 300*F though, which gave me the half engine light. So for now I'm going to just do an oil cooler upgrade. zsapphire7 ran with me that same day and with dual ER coolers he didn't have any limp mode issues all day which gives us some data points on how well they work.
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      07-25-2011, 12:38 PM   #594
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^^
Gotcha. It does make sense that the oil will have higher temps because it washes past the super hot turbos. I still think that if the AC-on trick does not work while driving on a track, it will do exceedingly well for cooling off the car while off the track.

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