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      08-17-2011, 03:08 PM   #45
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Wow, out of all the comments I have disagreed with you about(which has been many), this one is the most glaring.

You really think we are not attracting the best and brightest in the medical field?...now that is funny...wouldnt the elites and wealthy not be affected by the cost of the education as daddy would pay for it(which does happen in a small % of medical students)???...3/4 of medical students are poor to middle class and work their butt off to get in...their GPA, MCAT scores are better than 90-95% of others...for certain residency prog's(after completing med school) there are 200 applicants for 1 residency spot...you dont think these are the cream of the crop???...even if your father was a well known physician, you are not getting in unless your GPA and MCAT warrants admission...now if you are in a gray area, having connections will prob get you in.

BTW, the so called "poor" make up the majority of med students right now...when the cost of tuition is 30-40K, 90% of applicants are too poor to afford this hence they need many types of loans to make it through med school...and when you finally get your MD degree and you are doing residency, they will pay you a whopping 40-45K now, real good money for somebody with a doctorate degree...

i think med school doesnt need to attract the more "common" or "poor" folks any more than they do now. why? because there are other ways that med school CAN or COULD BE paid for, but people just dont choose to go down that road.

1. enroll in armed forces. which pays you, then covers your education. and skips your RA.

2. just be damn smart.

to me most of the "people" in med school right now is from either dry cleaner operating asian family... or gas station operating indian/arabic family back ground with low to mid class income trying to absorb a figure they really cannot afford to. so yes, for those there will always be a glass ceiling that must be broken at least once. its that one time that people cant over come. and who is to say no to that? no one, but that also doesn't mean the institution has to bend down to where they are... just because the "most".

if they were truely smart... they would take the option #1... but whos talking since most of them are liberal immigrants who moved just to avoid their own problems and careless about paying their dues to where they live now and always want free this free that.... well least the asians are.

and im sure someone will say something so ill say it first, yes im an immigrant too. hint would be my name.
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      08-17-2011, 05:35 PM   #46
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Entertaining post Korean boy....

Are there a higher % of Asians and Indians that go to med school?...yes!...but on avg are their MCAT scores and GPA's are higher than it is for African-Americans and white people...they work harder and make more sacrifices and you know that is true...since you are Korean your parents work 14 hr days running a grocery store, laudrymat or restaurant hehe so for you to say asians get and want anything for free is ludicrous...asians dont expect anything for free...they work 2 jobs to put their kids through school cause they value an education....they are the hardest working group I have ever seen.

"Just be damn smart"...easier said than done since 98% of society arent genetically super smart...people just try hard.

And go into the military to fund school, esp med school?...you obviously dont have kids...if you understood why we go to war you would never wish that onto your children...god forbid they see actual battle...when people directly attack us its one thing but I wont go to war and kill people for oil...I wont be a political pawn either.

And most asians that I know are not political at all cause they are too busy working their ass off to be politically aware.

Lastly, dont think you have ever been to medical school cause last time I was there, there were a hell of alot of poor and middle class white people too......most people are either poor or in middle class no????



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i think med school doesnt need to attract the more "common" or "poor" folks any more than they do now. why? because there are other ways that med school CAN or COULD BE paid for, but people just dont choose to go down that road.

1. enroll in armed forces. which pays you, then covers your education. and skips your RA.

2. just be damn smart.

to me most of the "people" in med school right now is from either dry cleaner operating asian family... or gas station operating indian/arabic family back ground with low to mid class income trying to absorb a figure they really cannot afford to. so yes, for those there will always be a glass ceiling that must be broken at least once. its that one time that people cant over come. and who is to say no to that? no one, but that also doesn't mean the institution has to bend down to where they are... just because the "most".

if they were truely smart... they would take the option #1... but whos talking since most of them are liberal immigrants who moved just to avoid their own problems and careless about paying their dues to where they live now and always want free this free that.... well least the asians are.

and im sure someone will say something so ill say it first, yes im an immigrant too. hint would be my name.
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      08-17-2011, 06:06 PM   #47
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Entertaining post Korean boy....

Are there a higher % of Asians and Indians that go to med school?...yes!...but on avg are their MCAT scores and GPA's are higher than it is for African-Americans and white people...they work harder and make more sacrifices and you know that is true...since you are Korean your parents work 14 hr days running a grocery store, laudrymat or restaurant hehe so for you to say asians get and want anything for free is ludicrous...asians dont expect anything for free...they work 2 jobs to put their kids through school cause they value an education....they are the hardest working group I have ever seen.

"Just be damn smart"...easier said than done since 98% of society arent genetically super smart...people just try hard.

And go into the military to fund school, esp med school?...you obviously dont have kids...if you understood why we go to war you would never wish that onto your children...god forbid they see actual battle...when people directly attack us its one thing but I wont go to war and kill people for oil...I wont be a political pawn either.

And most asians that I know are not political at all cause they are too busy working their ass off to be politically aware.

Lastly, dont think you have ever been to medical school cause last time I was there, there were a hell of alot of poor and middle class white people too......most people are either poor or in middle class no????
I have never agreed with you more . lol
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      08-17-2011, 06:50 PM   #48
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1) Yes, private insurance companies have been dropping people for years. We are now at around 50 million uninsured. I don't care what your ideological opinions are, these are 50 million REAL PEOPLE who need REAL OPTIONS for where to get insurance once the Private Insurance industry drops them.

Private insurance isn't going to stop dropping people, but you are willing to DENY these real people another option other than the Private Insurance industry that has turned their back on them. I'm not. I'm on the side of getting as many of these 50 million people insurance as possible, and you are on the side of making sure as many Insurance companies can stay in business as possible. I'm happy with my choice.

2) That's a strawman argument. The public option was specifically designed NOT to compete on their own. The law was that providers would be paid the best price that they had already negotiated with Private insurance. So the US gov't would pay no less than Private insurance.

3) Who said anything about single payer? I didn't, and I've already explained why your theory that all private insurance will disappear is false.

4) I think the best we are going to be able to do on this issue is to agree that some sort of program like the German non-profit insurance, or this Singapore program. I lived briefly in Germany, and I can vouch for their system being kick-ass. I've never been to Singapore, so I'm not quite ready to back something I only know about via Wiki. You are aware that Wiki describes the Singapore system as "compulsory", right? As in similar to the "individual mandate" that Ron Paul supporters all hate?

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      08-17-2011, 08:10 PM   #49
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2) That's a strawman argument. The public option was specifically designed NOT to compete on their own. The law was that providers would be paid the best price that they had already negotiated with Private insurance. So the US gov't would pay no less than Private insurance.


4) I think the best we are going to be able to do on this issue is to agree that some sort of program like the German non-profit insurance, or this Singapore program. I lived briefly in Germany, and I can vouch for their system being kick-ass. I've never been to Singapore, so I'm not quite ready to back something I only know about via Wiki. You are aware that Wiki describes the Singapore system as "compulsory", right? As in similar to the "individual mandate" that Ron Paul supporters all hate?
1.) Couldn't agree with your principle more. It's horrible that a first-world nation has a system in which millions of people can't afford healthcare. I still don't think health care is a right, so everyone who can do so, has to pay. But it's terrible that we have so many underprivileged without the means to pay for their healthcare. On top of that, these people are the ones straining our system, overflowing our emergency departments, and spurring the rising costs.

That being said, those numbers are inflated (the 50 million number). Why? Because a good proportion of those individuals are younger adults who choose to opt out of private healthcare.



2.) I'll have to delve more deeply into that proposed public option. But I don't recall the public option forbidding the government from directly negotiating with healthcare providers. That's what health professionals fear. Because when you're negotiating with the federal government, there is no negotiation, short of striking or forming more cohesive labor unions.

4.) I never had any issue with a mandate or compulsion. If you're going to get a national healthcare model out there, it HAS to be compulsory to work. You can't just have the sickest people opting for health insurance, or else the cost per subscriber will be far too high. Everyone must sign up for insurance in order to spread out the risks and make the costs per individual as low as possible. I wish our general public was more intelligent, but the fact of the matter is, even if it was incentivized, many would not choose to get health insurance unless it was MANDATED. So really, I think a mandate is a cornerstone to the solution. And any health economist would tell you the same.

Here's a better source for the Singapore health care model. I have some knowledge of it, as I've done academic research on the topic in the past. Give it a read, I'd be surprised if you don't find it intriguing .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...030301396.html

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We interrupt Washington's feud over the president's "way forward" for a brief word on a path not taken, courtesy of the only rich nation that boasts universal coverage with health outcomes better than ours while spending one-fifth as much per person on health care. Introducing (drum roll please): Singapore.

Yes, it's an island city-state of just 5 million people. Yes, it's more or less a benevolent dictatorship. And, yes, until recently, bringing chewing gum into Singapore could land you in jail. But Singapore, a poor country a few decades ago, now boasts a higher per capita income (when adjusted for local purchasing power) than the United States. And here's the astonishing fact: Singapore spends less than 4 percent of its GDP on health care. We spend 17 percent (and Singapore's somewhat younger population doesn't begin to explain the difference). Matching Singapore's performance in our $15 trillion economy would free up $2 trillion a year for other public and private purposes.

Do I have I your attention?



Today we can't find cash to recruit a new generation of great teachers, rebuild our roads and bridges, pay down the national debt, or invest in better airports, high-speed rail, a clean energy revolution or any of a hundred other things sensible patriots know we should do to renew the country. We can't do these things in large part because the Medical Industrial Complex vacuums up every spare dollar in sight. It's only slightly melodramatic to assert that if we could run our health-care system as efficiently as Singapore's, we could solve most of our other problems.

So how does Singapore do it?

In health circles it's always conservatives who bring up Singapore, because of the primacy it places on personal responsibility. According to Phua Kai Hong of the National University of Singapore, roughly one-third of health spending in Singapore is paid directly by individuals (who typically buy catastrophic coverage as well); in the United States, by contrast, nearly 90 percent is picked up by third-party insurers, employers and governments. Singaporeans make these payments out of earnings as well as from health savings accounts. The system is chock-full of incentives for thrift. If you want a private hospital room, for example, you pay through the nose; most people choose less expensive wards.

Conservatives are right: Singaporeans have the kind of "skin in the game" that promotes prudence.

But that's only half the story. There's also a massive public role. For starters, adequate savings for retirement and health expenses are mandated by government (employees must sock away 20 percent of earnings each year, to which employers add 13 percent). Public hospitals provide 80 percent of the acute care, setting affordable pricing benchmarks with which private providers compete. Supply-side rules that favor training new family doctors over pricey specialists are more extensive than similar notions Hillary Clinton pushed in the '90s. And in Singapore, if a child is obese, they don't get Rose Garden exhortations from the first lady. They get no lunch and mandatory exercise periods during school.

There's more (including an ample safety net for the poor), but you get the gist: Singapore achieves world-class results thanks to a bold, unconventional synthesis of liberal and conservative approaches. It's further to the left and further to the right than what President Obama or his foes now seek. The island's real ideology is pragmatic problem-solving. It works thanks to cultural traditions that let this eclectic blend flourish. The system is nurtured by talented, highly paid officials who have the luxury of governing for the long-term without being buffeted much by politics.

We obviously can't transplant Singapore's approach wholesale to the United States. But the reason we can't emulate even some of Singapore's success has to do with that iron law of health-care politics: Every dollar of health-care "waste" is somebody's dollar of income. As a stable advanced democracy, we're so overrun by groups with stakes in today's waste that real efficiency gains are perennially blocked.

Any hope for something better starts with tallying the price of today's paralysis. Think about that $2 trillion the next time you see states, citing budget woes, shut the door to college on tens of thousands of poor American students. Or when the next firm moves jobs overseas because health costs here are soaring. Or when the next bridge collapses. Thanks, Medical Industrial Complex!

We return now to our regularly scheduled political battle, which (no matter the outcome, according to some projections) will leave health costs headed to more than 20 percent of GDP by 2019.
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      08-17-2011, 08:39 PM   #50
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If you are seriously interested in understanding why the ACA is unconstitutional, specifically the individual mandate - watch Randy Barnett's discussion at NYU. You can bank on these being the winning arguments when SCOTUS finds the law unconstitutional.

Its a little long but if you want to move from rhetoric to hard analysis - the relevant discussion starts at 6:40:

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      08-17-2011, 09:17 PM   #51
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If you are seriously interested in understanding why the ACA is unconstitutional, specifically the individual mandate
Nope. Not really interested.
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      08-17-2011, 09:37 PM   #52
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The public option is a system where everyone who joins the system has to pay what they can afford. It is the natural and predictable response to under/unemployment, stagnant wages, and the increase of minimum wage jobs for adults we've seen over the last 4 decades. If we do not have another solution other than the current Private insurance system, the ONLY other solution that actually addresses the lack of healthcare for tens of millions of people is to massively increase wages and employment.

Again, if there is another solution, then great. Otherwise, just complaining about the solution on the table isn't a responsible answer.

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1.) Couldn't agree with your principle more. It's horrible that a first-world nation has a system in which millions of people can't afford healthcare. I still don't think health care is a right, so everyone who can do so, has to pay. But it's terrible that we have so many underprivileged without the means to pay for their healthcare. On top of that, these people are the ones straining our system, overflowing our emergency departments, and spurring the rising costs.
The Singapore plan sounds like it would be great for any country like Singapore that has a 2% unemployment rate. I'm open to any changes that get rid of our current health INSURANCE system that maintains our current health care PROVIDER system. We could institute the German INSURANCE system fairly easily (combined with a public option) without destroying our current health care PROVIDER system. I won't say it would be impossible to implement the Singapore plan, but what you posted makes it sound like it would require replacing our Provider system too.


PS -- yes, the provision basing public option payouts on best Private pricing was in the Obama proposal. With that in place, would you drop your opposition to the public option?
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      08-17-2011, 10:55 PM   #53
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Nope. Not really interested.
You could learn a thing or two about the functioning and proper role of government and to which those powers are enumerated specifically to the Federal government. Healthcare not being one of them, more accurately - Health Insurance.

So no matter how altruistic you feel in the righteousness of extending Health Insurance to all, we are a country of Laws and the Supreme Law (a.k.a the Constitution) allows for none of what you're extolling at the Federal level. If you don't like it, that's easy - convince your representatives to submit a Constitutional amendment to the states that creates a right to Healthcare. Its really simple honestly.

Even if you could forgo the Constitution - it be a helluva lot cheaper just to go ahead and outright pay the Health Insurance premiums for the 50 million or so uninsured Americans than that what was proposed in the ACA.
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      08-17-2011, 11:14 PM   #54
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Stuff your "you could learn a thing or two" self-righteous crap back up where it came from. I'm trying to have a rational conversation with with pman, and I'm not interested in your side-show. I tried to be polite about it with my first response, clearly you need something more to get the clue.


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You could learn a thing or two about the functioning and proper role of government and to which those powers are enumerated specifically to the Federal government. Healthcare not being one of them, more accurately - Health Insurance.

So no matter how altruistic you feel in the righteousness of extending Health Insurance to all, we are a country of Laws and the Supreme Law (a.k.a the Constitution) allows for none of what you're extolling at the Federal level. If you don't like it, that's easy - convince your representatives to submit a Constitutional amendment to the states that creates a right to Healthcare. Its really simple honestly.

Even if you could forgo the Constitution - it be a helluva lot cheaper just to go ahead and outright pay the Health Insurance premiums for the 50 million or so uninsured Americans than that what was proposed in the ACA.

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      08-17-2011, 11:19 PM   #55
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Stuff your self-righteous crap back up where it came from. I'm trying to have a rational conversation with with pman, and I'm not interested in your side-show. I tried to be polite about it with my first response, clearly you need something more to get the clue.
Learn what PMs are for if you want to have a 1:1 convo in an open thread.

If you can't argue the facts then don't respond - there's another helpful "how to use Forums" hint for you.
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      08-17-2011, 11:26 PM   #56
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Here is a helpful "how to use Forums" hint for you:

Don't assume you can tell people they "could learn a thing or two" just because they say they aren't interested in your stupid embedded video spam.


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Learn what PMs are for if you want to have a 1:1 convo in an open thread.

If you can't argue the facts then don't respond - there's another helpful "how to use Forums" hint for you.
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      08-18-2011, 12:12 AM   #57
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Here is a helpful "how to use Forums" hint for you:

Don't assume you can tell people they "could learn a thing or two" just because they say they aren't interested in your stupid embedded video spam.
I assumed nada - The video is in direct response to the to actual TOPIC the OP started the thread with, which was the 11th Circuit finding on the ACA; re: the Constitutional standing of the law.

If it hurts you so bad, lay off your reply button and PM your heart away on the value-prop of mimicking the German healthcare model in the U.S when we could've just spent $400m to just buy everyone Insurance and be done with it so as to not discuss the actual topic at hand.
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      08-18-2011, 12:37 PM   #58
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Entertaining post Korean boy....

Are there a higher % of Asians and Indians that go to med school?...yes!...but on avg are their MCAT scores and GPA's are higher than it is for African-Americans and white people...they work harder and make more sacrifices and you know that is true...since you are Korean your parents work 14 hr days running a grocery store, laudrymat or restaurant hehe so for you to say asians get and want anything for free is ludicrous...asians dont expect anything for free...they work 2 jobs to put their kids through school cause they value an education....they are the hardest working group I have ever seen.

"Just be damn smart"...easier said than done since 98% of society arent genetically super smart...people just try hard.

And go into the military to fund school, esp med school?...you obviously dont have kids...if you understood why we go to war you would never wish that onto your children...god forbid they see actual battle...when people directly attack us its one thing but I wont go to war and kill people for oil...I wont be a political pawn either.

And most asians that I know are not political at all cause they are too busy working their ass off to be politically aware.

Lastly, dont think you have ever been to medical school cause last time I was there, there were a hell of alot of poor and middle class white people too......most people are either poor or in middle class no????

well it seems like this post has moved along but to reply back to what was quoted... yes i agree with you up to the first paragraph of your post.

but i have to say, when its time to vote or show political opinions, there are more liberal views from the immigrants. i cannot say so for other races, but i do know and can vouch for koreans. ok fine being democrats dont necessarily say you are a liberalistic person, but i think if you look back there were more tax increase and more government hand outs ("free money") when dems were in office.

for example, my ex-girlfriends cousin ran for a seat as a county judge. of course she had to be a dem party associated candidate and first thing that she offered is more this more that to korean communities. and of course most koreans voted her not because of political views or ideas but because she was korean and her offers.

so as far as "free" goes, that was what i meant by "free". and yes youre right nothing is free they just seem so... specially from our gov. someone always pays.

and what i meant by just be damn smart was not just being a genius. im sure it takes some knowledge to do anything in this world but we all know that just being smart in the head isnt the best either. i guess for me being damn smart means, i really really hate to say this but being like obama. some education, iffy background (fake), minority, but i guess the man knows where to go what to do and who to talk to since he is the president now. i hate the man but i have to give it to him for what he did with him self.

ah and yes the military... well i can tell you right off the back, 5 of my friends have died in iraq and afghan in the past 4 yrs. but 4 others have never seen or stepped a foot in the sand. why? because 5 that got killed went in as what they were signed up to and other 4 specifically went in as medical. one of the 4 went but because he wanted to and was only stationed at the base as a medical doc.

so yes if you dont know what you want they will use you like a dog or a pawn like you have mentioned. but if you know what you want and what you are willing to give then i think there is a benefit to gain. and i guess that goes back to being damn smart.

ok so enough of my rants and off topic replies. obamacare is a sham they just want to get more money from us for them to borrow from just like Social Sec no matter who says what/ gov. is the biggest scam and crooks of all time that always gets away/ and i think more people need to wake up and see the reality.
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      08-18-2011, 01:20 PM   #59
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What is wrong with you?...so angry...seriously, why not keep an open mind and try to learn something...or do you know everything already?...

That guy was being considerate and nice and you act as if he stole your first born...sheesh.

Closed minded people are so...hmm...mundane and boring?...


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Here is a helpful "how to use Forums" hint for you:

Don't assume you can tell people they "could learn a thing or two" just because they say they aren't interested in your stupid embedded video spam.
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      08-18-2011, 02:30 PM   #60
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What is wrong with you?...so angry...seriously, why not keep an open mind and try to learn something...or do you know everything already?...

That guy was being considerate and nice and you act as if he stole your first born...sheesh.

Closed minded people are so...hmm...mundane and boring?...


you watch your mouth or else
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