[hks786]

Just wanted to do a poll on this to see what other people think.

I think Obama is a hypocrite because he has failed to deliver on many promises and I was so angry watching him today at the U.N. talking about a free Libya etc. bla bla but America has quietly announced that it will veto any bid by Palestine to apply to the U.N. for a full membership.

I think people should follow the news more carefully and watch out for the things that DON'T make front pages. I think it's crazy that any one state out of the 5 permanent members of the U.N. have the right to veto something and that would automatically rule out that proposal. Who made America the world policeman? or Britain for that matter?

It is so obvious that America and Britain are allies to Israel and don't care about the Palestinian people. Tony Blair was sent to try dissuade Abbass from applying for full membership. I also watched a statement by the White House spokesman saying that a Palestinian state would be counter-productive. WTF are you talking about?

I support the idea of Palestine having it's own free and recognised state because I think it is crucial to the road to peace. I can't and wouldn't justify the violence going on, BUT we should ask ourselves why are people fighting? Palestine want their own state. What's wrong with that? I think they need to be recognised as a state first and then discussions on how Palestine/Israel can live peacefully as neighbouring states can continue.

[BMW//M]

Palestine won't rest until they see Israel demolished. Oh and don't you mean Londanistan? That country is so radical and Muslim right now I don't consider it an ally. Have you heard Tony Blaires sister rant about how Israel should be destroyed by the Palestinians? It's fucking nuts. And my solution of the middle east unrest is to just have both sides destroy each other. They've been fighting for thousands of years and no country has been able to tame them, why should we?

[ScaredOnce]

We need Israel to help start/fight the war with Iran.

F Palestine.

[OldArmy]

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

It's all too easy, the formula above would have resulted in a "Palestinian" state long ago but they'd rather kill than build.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

It's all too easy, the formula above would have resulted in a "Palestinian" state long ago but they'd rather kill than build.

1) 'We recognize Israel, they should recognize Palestine'
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/30/2011 17:32


Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967." The PA president's comments came in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=227346

[driersheets]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

It's all too easy, the formula above would have resulted in a "Palestinian" state long ago but they'd rather kill than build.

killing israelis is hezbollah.

cough iran cough

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by 11Series

1) 'We recognize Israel, they should recognize Palestine'
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/30/2011 17:32


Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967." The PA president's comments came in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=227346

Apparently it's going to be a wee bit harder and have to be a whole lot more "official" than a dropped comment to the press.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=238639

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by 11Series

1) 'We recognize Israel, they should recognize Palestine'
By JPOST.COM STAFF
06/30/2011 17:32


Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Thursday said that the Palestinian people recognize Israel's right to exist and they hope the Israeli government will respond by "recognizing the Palestinian state on the borders of the land occupied in 1967." The PA president's comments came in a speech to the Dutch parliament in the Hague.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=227346

Thanks for posting this. Hopefully this will help clear things up for others around here.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

Apparently it's going to be a wee bit harder and have to be a whole lot more "official" than a dropped comment to the press.

http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=238639

It wasn't a comment dropped to the press, it was Abbas's statement at The Hague, as reported by Israel's newspaper of record. And this wasn't the only nor first statement of recognition by Abbas, the PLO, or the Palestinian Authority.

But in case Israel's largest newspaper, who happens to be center-right in slant isn't valid enough source for you, here it is directly from the official Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs:





"Background - Israel-PLO Recognition

...

an agreement was achieved between Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and PLO Chairman Yasser Arafat. On September 9, 1993, Chairman Arafat sent a letter to Prime Minister Rabin, in which he stated unequivocally that the PLO:

* Recognizes the right of Israel to exist in peace and security
"

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Peace%20Pr...20Negotiations

[chazzz]

Whatever it happens at the United Nations, there will be a war in the Middle East, possibly sooner or later.

Don't be surprised that Israel will win the war. It's very likely that Israel will annex Syria after the city of Damascus will be destroyed ("...Behold, Damascus is taken away from being a city and it shall be a ruinous heap." Isaiah 17:1).

[OldArmy]

C'mon, at least read the link (from your same source). http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=238639

Apparently the Israeli's think it's still an issue. An Hamas (part of the government) doesn't seem to be on the right page (read the Hamas charter). And the "agreement" you quoted is historical, over and long dead, just like the two characters in your fiction. And nothing of any consequence has come out of the Hague, much less from a speech from an emasculated leader. No, only you think there is full and real acceptance of the right of Israel to exist. The formula would work if they would just try:

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

Edit: One add for your review. Appears the palestinian reps to the U.N. have a logo of interest. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...el_594027.html

[11Series]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

C'mon, at least read the link (from your same source). http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=238639

Apparently the Israeli's think it's still an issue.

Let me explain the history you don't know about what is in the article you linked to in the Jslm Post.

From 1948 until 1993, the demand was that the Palestinian state recognize the right of the Israeli state to exist. In 1993, Arafat agreed to this condition in peace talks, the PLO's elected body ratified it with a vote of ~90% in favor of ratification, and it has been repeated by Abbas many times in official statements and letters. Israel does NOT dispute this, and Israel accepted the language of Palestine saying it "Recognizes the right of Israel to exist in peace and security" back in 1993.

Then in 2008, Israel moved the goal posts. Instead of just accepting the Palestinian's recognition of the Israeli state to exist, Israel fabricated a NEW demand. Now Israel demands that the Palestinians say that Israel (which is about 3/4 Jewish, and 1/4 Arab) is an exclusively Jewish state, instead of a Democratic state representing ALL it's citizens. Abbas refused to change the language of recognition that both parties agreed to in 1993 by saying:

"For us, there is the state of Israel .... I told them that this is their business and that they are free to call themselves whatever they want"



Are you now moving YOUR OWN goal posts? You said it was sufficient that the Palestinians "Recognize Israel's right to exist." The Palestinians have done that repeatedly in very official ways for over two decades, and the Israeli gov't has officially acknowledged this.

Are you now saying that recognizing Israel's right to exist isn't enough?

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by 11Series

Are you now saying that recognizing Israel's right to exist isn't enough?

Yes, exactly, right from my very first post. It was my whole point. Only a couple of things required and they would be easy for a people even vaguely interested in peace.

And please, come up to date and explain Hamas' current influence on your history and their current posture and their STATED GOALS. They want the Israeli's dead and gone, erased. And they are the government chosen by the palestinians.

Nope, the Israeli's aren't buying it and neither does anyone else.

I almost hope the arabs try major military action again, make a full up effort. But they won't as arab talents don't extend to a real fight. They much prefer the oblique approach--murder, terror, long distance rocket fire, fighting from behind civilians, etc.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

Yes, exactly, right from my very first post. It was my whole point. Only a couple of things required and they would be easy for a people even vaguely interested in peace.

And please, come up to date and explain Hamas' current influence on your history and their current posture and their STATED GOALS. They want the Israeli's dead and gone, erased. And they are the government chosen by the palestinians.

Nope, the Israeli's aren't buying it and neither does anyone else.

I almost hope the arabs try major military action again, make a full up effort. But they won't as arab talents don't extend to a real fight. They much prefer the oblique approach--murder, terror, long distance rocket fire, fighting from behind civilians, etc.

Just what I thought. You pretend there are simple conditions for the Palestinians to meet, and then they would get their state.

In reality, there is NOTHING the Palestinians can do that will satisfy people like you. People like you won't be satisfied until all of them all convert to knit-kippa wearing Likudnik Zionist Orthodox Rabbi's. Even then you guys would find a reason to block them from forming a state.

[Singletrack]

It's amazing the ignorance in this thread already. People know nothing of the conflict or how the west actually caused it post ww2.

[Singletrack]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

Yes, exactly, right from my very first post. It was my whole point. Only a couple of things required and they would be easy for a people even vaguely interested in peace.

And please, come up to date and explain Hamas' current influence on your history and their current posture and their STATED GOALS. They want the Israeli's dead and gone, erased. And they are the government chosen by the palestinians.

Nope, the Israeli's aren't buying it and neither does anyone else.

I almost hope the arabs try major military action again, make a full up effort. But they won't as arab talents don't extend to a real fight. They much prefer the oblique approach--murder, terror, long distance rocket fire, fighting from behind civilians, etc.

It's funny that you lump all Arabs together as terrorists. How long have you been a racist?

There will always be radical divisions within any oppressed people.

[BMW//M]

If the Muslim religion didn't have so many radicals the world would be a better place. You don't see Israel slaughtering its civilians and dehumanizing women do you? It's the rest of the middle east that is doing that and creating hatred and violence throughout the world. The Muslim people might be good people but their religion calls for too much hate and violence resulting in extremist, radicals and terrorists. I also believe that Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the Hitler of our time. Now he's in NY talking to loony college kids.

[Mahmood07]

Originally Posted by Singletrack

It's funny that you lump all Arabs together as terrorists. How long have you been a racist?

There will always be radical divisions within any oppressed people.

Bingo!

[hks786]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

C'mon, at least read the link (from your same source). http://www.jpost.com/DiplomacyAndPol...aspx?id=238639

Apparently the Israeli's think it's still an issue. An Hamas (part of the government) doesn't seem to be on the right page (read the Hamas charter). And the "agreement" you quoted is historical, over and long dead, just like the two characters in your fiction. And nothing of any consequence has come out of the Hague, much less from a speech from an emasculated leader. No, only you think there is full and real acceptance of the right of Israel to exist. The formula would work if they would just try:

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

Edit: One add for your review. Appears the palestinian reps to the U.N. have a logo of interest. http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/...el_594027.html

The problem with your theory is that it places more favour to Israel. You're proposing that Israel's rights are acknowledged first THEN Palestine. This is the exact type of discrimination that I'm talking about.

Israel is already recognised by the whole world as a state. They have full backing of the entire western world including major funding by the U.S. Let's not forget they are also a nuclear armed state! Why not let Palestine be recognised as a state of the U.N. and then resume peace talks to live as neighbouring states? Why does everything in the world have to meet the terms of America (and Israel and Britain)? America is happy to use the U.N. when they want to bomb Iraq or Libya but not now.

Originally Posted by BMW//M

If the Muslim religion didn't have so many radicals the world would be a better place. You don't see Israel slaughtering its civilians and dehumanizing women do you? It's the rest of the middle east that is doing that and creating hatred and violence throughout the world. The Muslim people might be good people but their religion calls for too much hate and violence resulting in extremist, radicals and terrorists. I also believe that Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the Hitler of our time. Now he's in NY talking to loony college kids.

Our religion calls for peace. You need to study our books properly in their true context and great understanding of the arab language. What I do know is that the major powers in this world are corrupt. Just today there is a report of a U.S. drone attack in Yemen killing 10 people. Wtf? It is clear that western powers will do whatever they want and they can always "justify" it. If a muslim uses a bomb they are a terrorist yet if America kills hundreds of thousands and starts war it is in the name of a "new world order", "peace" or "democracy". What a load of BS.

Originally Posted by Singletrack

It's funny that you lump all Arabs together as terrorists. How long have you been a racist?

There will always be radical divisions within any oppressed people.

This pisses me off too. A lot of people group all muslims and arabs together. Whether you admit it or not there is a stereotype and the word "terrorist" is now widely associated with Islam. I'm a muslim and when I hear the word I think of muslims!

[BMW//M]

Well let's just say the middle east brought the war on themselves when they killed 3000 Americans on 9/11/01. And what America's been doing since then is eliminating the Al-Qaeda and Hamas terrorists. Also, who here supports Sharia Law? I think it's one of the sickest things in the world.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by BMW//M

Well let's just say the middle east brought the war on themselves when they killed 3000 Americans on 9/11/01. And what America's been doing since then is eliminating the Al-Qaeda and Hamas terrorists. Also, who here supports Sharia Law? I think it's one of the sickest things in the world.

You're an ignorant kid, programmed to spew right-wing rhetoric. Try studying the history you so obviously were not witness to, or aware of.

Ever heard of the Spanish inquisition, the Crusades, the Nazis, the KKK, the militia? Know anything about US involvement in Iran-Contra, supporting Noriega, supporting Saddam Hussein in Iraq-Iran, supporting Bin-Laden in Afghan-Soviet, the Gulf war, the war in Bosnia, the Iraq war? This is just the tip of the clueless iceberg.

[ScotchAndCigar]

BTW, I agree that 9/11 was horrible, as it always is with the killing of innocent people. But we've lost about 5000 soldiers since then, and what about the tens-of-thousands of Iraqi civilians? Or do they not matter?