[11Series]

Originally Posted by scott_uw

My answer to the poll is "Full U.N. membership", but both nations have been so belligerent for so long I think the world would be better off without them. Their constant fighting has done nothing but increase my disdain for both of them and I refuse to choose a side to defend.

Good luck ever getting these censored to cooperate.

The difference is that while both side have been belligerent, one side has been using this state of constant belligerance to illegally transfer their population into the other side's occupied territory.

There isn't any chance that the problem there is just going to vanish just because we don't want to deal with them. In fact, the opposite is true. The longer we fail to deal with them, the more blowback the US is going to experience.

The biggest failure in US politics is somehow believing that getting both of the belligerent sides to agree upon a set of peaceful borders is somehow siding with one side or another. It isn't, it is siding with US Strategic Intrests for the United States for this issue to be finally resolved.

Everyone involved knows that this can end only one of two ways. Either with the creation of the State of Palestine (2 state solution) or all Palestinians must be given full citizenship and voting rights in the Israeli gov't (1 state solution).

So lets agree on a number of things:

1) That we would both like to see the entire dispute go away.
2) That both parties are too belligerent to solve the problems alone.
3) That it is in the strategic regional interests of the United States that the situation be resolved.

We don't have any choice but to act.

[stylinexpat]

Rodents call these new settlements..

[Socom]

It will never happen. Just as there are groups on both sides who want to the othe side perish. It really doesn't matter what is said publicly. There really is only 1 way to resolve the issue.

[stylinexpat]

More settlements as punishment or revenge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15085308

[hks786]

Originally Posted by stylinexpat

More settlements as punishment or revenge

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15085308

I can't/wouldn't ever justify innocent killings, but people wonder why palestinians launch rockets into Israel. This is why. Over the last 60+ years Israel has increased its land by taking over Palestine and even today the statehood bid Palestine has submitted is based on even smaller land than previously agreed by the U.N. in the 1940s!

Israel knows it can get away with it because they will just label Muslims as "terrorists" if they try to do anything about it. Yet when Israel use their tanks, rockets, planes (and they even have nuclear weapons) noone will think twice.

Also, I know everyone is condemning Israel building these settlements but I think it's part of a greater scheme to provoke Palestinians to cause more violence and then the statehood bid can be vetoed by America on grounds that "direct peace negotiations must resume, not U.N. resolutions".

I don't know why everyone can't see what's REALLY going on here.

[jasonX]

Originally Posted by hks786

I can't/wouldn't ever justify innocent killings, but people wonder why palestinians launch rockets into Israel. This is why. Over the last 60+ years Israel has increased its land by taking over Palestine and even today the statehood bid Palestine has submitted is based on even smaller land than previously agreed by the U.N. in the 1940s!

Israel knows it can get away with it because they will just label Muslims as "terrorists" if they try to do anything about it. Yet when Israel use their tanks, rockets, planes (and they even have nuclear weapons) noone will think twice.

Also, I know everyone is condemning Israel building these settlements but I think it's part of a greater scheme to provoke Palestinians to cause more violence and then the statehood bid can be vetoed by America on grounds that "direct peace negotiations must resume, not U.N. resolutions".

I don't know why everyone can't see what's REALLY going on here.

Has much to do with AIPAC lining up our Politicians' pockets, Christian/Jewish Zionism, and the ignorance of American's affiliating all Arabs as terrorists even though they couldn't name an instance (credible source) where America was attacked by Palestinians (Jews immigrating from Brooklyn to settle on stolen Palestinian land do no count as they are thieves and commiting a crime themselves, furthermore the radical muslim attacks on the US, for example 911 and the first WTC bombing had no Palestinians involved in either). However, I could name numerous instances where our "ally" Israel is clearly more of a threat to the U.S. then Palestine, Unfortunately most of our elected officials have placed the interests of other countries and corporations above our own.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by hks786

I don't know why everyone can't see what's REALLY going on here.

Especially when major parties currently sitting in the Israeli ruling coalition gov't are quite open about what their goals are.

Israeli Foreign Minister Lieberman has been very open about calling for full Israeli rule over all of historic "Haaretz Israel" (Israel, Palestine, plus parts of Syria and Lebanon) and the transfer of all Arabic people (Christian and Muslim) to Jordan.

It is no accident that more settlements were announced at this exact time. This is a direct pattern of open defiance that Israel repeats every time there is a major event. It happened when Bibi met with Obama. It happened when VP Biden visited Israel. It happened a week into the last round of peace talks with Abbas. Etc...

It is their way of saying that there is nothing that will stop them from taking over "Haaretz Israel". Nobody will stop them, and they are openly thumbing their noses at anyone who even thinks of trying to stop them.

[stylinexpat]

We are a neutral broker in peace (The US ) while we block aid to Palestine for not achieving peace with Israel. We do not allow them to bid for their own state while we do and did allow Israel to bid for their own State. We will also not cut off aid to Israel for not achieving peace with Palestine but will cut off aid to Palestine for not achieving peace with Israel and launching their UN state bid

http://www.intifada-palestine.com/20...-palestinians/

We block aid to one side but not the other. How is this broker a neutral broker when all the decisions are influenced by AIPAC The decision is beyond biased.

[Rochdale Pioneers]

The push for the UN declaration was a cry for help. There is no negotiation because whilst the UN, the Palestinians and almost the rest of the world recognise both Israel and Palestine in the pre-67 borders, Israel and the US do not.

Regardless of which side you support (and for so many of us its emphatically BOTH) there are some truths which are both self-evident and stridently ignored.

1. Israel's security policies do not bring Israel security. The only way the current plan could bring Israel security within whatever border it chooses to recognise would be to either subjugate the arab (because the hardline zionists refuse to recognise any such thing as a "Palestinian" or exterminate every one of them.

A change in strategy is needed to achieve the objective, but every time there is a Palestinian rocket attack they go even harder against the Palestinians which results in another rocker attack so they go even harder against the Palestinians which results in another rocket attack.

2. Israel's strength is its weakness. It has enough conventional weapons to defeat any of its neighbours in a war. It has the nuclear weapons required to turn Iran to molten glass (which is why the "threat" of an Iranian bomb is no such thing - they cannot use it even if they had one and wanted to as Israel would utterly destroy them and with it their dreams of being the dominant islamic force in the region).

Yet for all this strength it cannot militarily defeat an ideal - that the occupied want not to be occupied. "Accidentally shoot" a youth throwing stones at soldiers armed with M16s and his brother will replace him. Kill the father and the son will join in. The only route to security is peace, and you can't have peace whilst they continue to steal land from the Palestinian as ruthlessly as the USA did from its indigenous nations.

3. Abbas is the person they need to negotiate with. Sure he's not perfect, nor is the PA, but the lie that keeps being put about is that the PA refuse to recognise Israel. The quotes demonstrating this to be a lie are on record and were posted earlier, yet it keeps being asserted. And yes, Hamas is more hard line. But is a bit player in the bigger picture. IRA hard liners refused to accept any UK involvement on the island of Ireland. Yet the majority cut a deal anyway, brought prosperity and all but a tiny minority have now come round, pariahs amongst their own people.

So there can be peace, but its up to Israel if it wants it. Not up to the Palestinians, only Israel can make the required moves to pull it off. The only conclusion I can draw is that Israel is summarily uninterested in peace.....

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by Rochdale Pioneers

The push for the UN declaration was a cry for help. There is no negotiation because whilst the UN, the Palestinians and almost the rest of the world recognise both Israel and Palestine in the pre-67 borders, Israel and the US do not.

Regardless of which side you support (and for so many of us its emphatically BOTH) there are some truths which are both self-evident and stridently ignored.

1. Israel's security policies do not bring Israel security. The only way the current plan could bring Israel security within whatever border it chooses to recognise would be to either subjugate the arab (because the hardline zionists refuse to recognise any such thing as a "Palestinian" or exterminate every one of them.

A change in strategy is needed to achieve the objective, but every time there is a Palestinian rocket attack they go even harder against the Palestinians which results in another rocker attack so they go even harder against the Palestinians which results in another rocket attack.

2. Israel's strength is its weakness. It has enough conventional weapons to defeat any of its neighbours in a war. It has the nuclear weapons required to turn Iran to molten glass (which is why the "threat" of an Iranian bomb is no such thing - they cannot use it even if they had one and wanted to as Israel would utterly destroy them and with it their dreams of being the dominant islamic force in the region).

Yet for all this strength it cannot militarily defeat an ideal - that the occupied want not to be occupied. "Accidentally shoot" a youth throwing stones at soldiers armed with M16s and his brother will replace him. Kill the father and the son will join in. The only route to security is peace, and you can't have peace whilst they continue to steal land from the Palestinian as ruthlessly as the USA did from its indigenous nations.

3. Abbas is the person they need to negotiate with. Sure he's not perfect, nor is the PA, but the lie that keeps being put about is that the PA refuse to recognise Israel. The quotes demonstrating this to be a lie are on record and were posted earlier, yet it keeps being asserted. And yes, Hamas is more hard line. But is a bit player in the bigger picture. IRA hard liners refused to accept any UK involvement on the island of Ireland. Yet the majority cut a deal anyway, brought prosperity and all but a tiny minority have now come round, pariahs amongst their own people.

So there can be peace, but its up to Israel if it wants it. Not up to the Palestinians, only Israel can make the required moves to pull it off. The only conclusion I can draw is that Israel is summarily uninterested in peace.....

Check out this article and look at the hypocrisy..
http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayA...ion=middleeast

Basically if the Palestinians ask the Israelis to stop settlements is seen as a pre-condition and Israel says it does not accept pre-conditions Palestine though must stop rockets from being launched into Israel and this of course is not a pre-condition Why is it that one side can continue to or is allowed to continue with something to aggravate the Palestinians by stealing land while the Palestinians are not allowed to aggravate the Israelis by fighting back Are people really that dense these days or just that thick skinned

To be fair and neutrally fair both sides should stop both actions which are considered provocative to one another which in this case is rocket attacks by the Palestinians and further theft of land which is referred to as settlements by Israelis.

If we want peace with this gopher in our backyard we must not attack any of his settlements in our backyard but mean while we must allow him to continue making new settlements in our backyard.

[Robin_NL]

Originally Posted by BMW//M

If the Muslim religion didn't have so many radicals the world would be a better place. You don't see Israel slaughtering its civilians and dehumanizing women do you? It's the rest of the middle east that is doing that and creating hatred and violence throughout the world. The Muslim people might be good people but their religion calls for too much hate and violence resulting in extremist, radicals and terrorists. I also believe that Iran's Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is the Hitler of our time. Now he's in NY talking to loony college kids.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by Robin Hood

So you're in the Netherlands, right? Isn't that where that Christian wacko gunned down like a hundred people?
Can I get a hell-yea?

[jasonX]

^

Game-Set-Match

There are radicals for virtually all religions, even in present times.

[cmk227]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

1) Recognize Israel's right to exist.
2) Stop trying to kill Israelis.
3) Get recognized

It's all too easy, the formula above would have resulted in a "Palestinian" state long ago but they'd rather kill than build.

I support this.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by jasonX

^

Game-Set-Match

There are radicals for virtually all religions, even in present times.

Very true and the more radicals there are the more problems we have. The Israeli government is made up of many religious radicals or is it not?? If one expects to be recognized then they should recognize the other side as well.

[Javi335]

I had never read so much crap like this thread, and I usually read my own post after write it.

Palestine was at that site for thousands of years, then the Israel people decide that is time to get his own country right there. Its ok, a little bit late to get back, but it was his land too, there was space enough for both. But the territory begin to get small for they and star to expand into out lands where palestinian people is livining, by killing, bombing, and by whatever they want.

They tread his neck, and they are soldiers. Palestinians fights back, but hey! they are terrorist.

oh, and me a nazi, how not!

[hks786]

^^^ Exactly. The problem with mainstream media is that the Israel/Palestine conflict isn't reported accurately. This conflict isn't a few years old, it's decades old. Also, Israel isn't the victim people think it is. Sure there have been innocent jews killed, they are the real victims, but the Israel itself is a terror state.

Israel is nuclear armed and buys weapons from U.S. and receives lots of support from America. Also, Israel exists only because the land was originally stolen from the Palestinians and they keep stealing more land! The U.N. application made by Abbass is actually for only 22% of the land. Even in the last few weeks Israel has announced more illegal settlements of thousands of homes on Palestinian land.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by Javi335

Palestine was at that site for thousands of years, then the Israel people decide that is time to get his own country right there.

Wow, coming from the land of the Spanish Inquisition, that's a very comprehensive summary of the region's history.
Ever heard of Canaan, the Israelites, Jerusalem, the Old Testament, Moses, Abraham, the Jewish people?
"Palestinians" are arabic, just like the hundreds of millions of Arabs in the region. And then there's this:
"the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the twentieth century". Not exactly thousands of years, eh?
So the 1.5 billion Muslims can have a generous portion of the word's land, but the few Jews who haven't been exterminated can't keep their New Jersey-sized homeland - sounds about right.

[Javi335]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Wow, coming from the land of the Spanish Inquisition, that's a very comprehensive summary of the region's history.

Oh really, did some american indian tell you that?

Ever heard of Canaan, the Israelites, Jerusalem, the Old Testament, Moses, Abraham, the Jewish people?

no sir, just heard about Sefarad. I think was in Australia

"Palestinians" are arabic, just like the hundreds of millions of Arabs in the region. And then there's this:
"the prevailing view is that Palestinian identity originated in the early decades of the twentieth century". Not exactly thousands of years, eh?
So the 1.5 billion Muslims can have a generous portion of the word's land, but the few Jews who haven't been exterminated can't keep their New Jersey-sized homeland - sounds about right.

[/quote]

Call it palestinians, muslims, arabics ... doesnt matter, the fact is jewish dont leave that region a decade ago, a century ago ... and nobody expells jews from there, they go by their own.

i guess you want arabic people living there go like "hey, lets leave a empty place forever if one day jewish want to come back!"

Oh no prob, tomorrow all the spaniards we gonna take a plain and go to California, Nevada, Florida, etc, and demand a portion of there because it was the Old Sacred Kingdom of Spain, and so the frenchs with New Orleans, the brits with the Colonies ... this is ridiculous

Dont seems like jewish people was very worried about his own land until IIWW

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by Javi335

Call it palestinians, muslims, arabics ... doesnt matter, the fact is jewish dont leave that region a decade ago, a century ago ... and nobody expells jews from there, they go by their own.

i guess you want arabic people living there go like "hey, lets leave a empty place forever if one day jewish want to come back!"

Oh no prob, tomorrow all the spaniards we gonna take a plain and go to California, Nevada, Florida, etc, and demand a portion of there because it was the Old Sacred Kingdom of Spain, and so the frenchs with New Orleans, the brits with the Colonies ... this is ridiculous

Dont seems like jewish people was very worried about his own land until IIWW

You are completely ignorant of history. It was the Jewish homeland, and the Jews have been expelled from there unwillingly over hundreds of times, through war and systematic extermination. The idea that Jews willingly left is the same type of propaganda that exists with those who deny the holocaust.

Your analogy is flawed, a more accurate one is if someone came to takeover Spain.

[Javi335]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

You are completely ignorant of history. It was the Jewish homeland, and the Jews have been expelled from there unwillingly over hundreds of times, through war and systematic extermination. The idea that Jews willingly left is the same type of propaganda that exists with those who deny the holocaust.

Your analogy is flawed, a more accurate one is if someone came to takeover Spain.

Pardon messie ... lets assume that is true, then i ask again, if jews want to return to Israel and create his own country, because its belong to them, lived there or whatever, then we have to be ready for a globlal shock of peoples asking his lands back, just think about all the afroamericans expelling white people from southafrica for his return, all indians killing you all euro ancestry from USA, or France, Spain and England demanding on the ONU congress his old possesions in america ... like a i said, thats hilarious.

Its ok to me if jews want to create a country, its ok even if they want a piece of the old Israel, but definitly that's not the way. To me the matter is not to have or no to have, is how and ways they are doing.

And about the expells, i can figure, by the times we are living and what my own eyes see, why they have been kicked from so many countrys. To take nationals currencys and turn it into private is not a thing that everybody likes. Shame all jews get punished and pointed after for that.

C'mon Mr. Tolerant, give me your best shot

[11Series]

I don't know what the point is of what you two are arguing about.

There has to be a Modern State of Israel, and there has to be a Modern State of Palestine --- regardless of what South Africa did, or what was done to Native Americans, or what ancient monotheists from Egypt did.

The only real argument is how and when this can be accomplished.


My apologies in advance if anyone feels that I'm stepping on anyone's toes.