[hks786]

+1 that's pretty much how I think it should be. A 2-state solution.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

There has to be a Modern State of Israel, and there has to be a Modern State of Palestine

The only real argument is how and when this can be accomplished.

Agreed, but we (and the world) still have to deal with this...

Originally Posted by Javi335

And about the expells, i can figure, by the times we are living and what my own eyes see, why they have been kicked from so many countrys. To take nationals currencys and turn it into private is not a thing that everybody likes.

Now we're getting to the meat of the anti-semitism that's behind all this. Yeah, Jews are genetically bred to control the banks. This is the spoken, publicly accepted stereotype that Nazis and others used to exterminate Jews, and it's clearly racist bullshit. Every ethnic group has stereotypes - Italians are mobsters, Irish control politics, etc. None of these stereotypes caused nations to exterminate them.

No, the unspoken truth is that Jews are not Christians, and that's why they've been expelled and nearly wiped-out. As usual, religion is the dividing line that is at the root of all the wars around the world.

[Javi335]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Now we're getting to the meat of the anti-semitism that's behind all this. Yeah, Jews are genetically bred to control the banks. This is the spoken, publicly accepted stereotype that Nazis and others used to exterminate Jews, and it's clearly racist bullshit.

Im not agree with exterminate nobody, but i think the FED and all his members could be perfectly expelled from USA. And his acolytes, jews or not, too.

You know, the problem is when the thing its been boiled for long and burst, there's no time or patience to separate between bads and goods.

Zionism is not a tale

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Zolli

[11Series]

It is well established that there is an over-abundance of hate and bigotry on both sides. Neither side has clean hands.

It would be bigotry for anyone to claim any one side has had completely clean hands.
It would be bigotry for anyone to claim any one side has been the only ones who were bigoted and hateful.

So now here we are. We've got two parties who do not have clean hands, who both have to live next to each other. Neither side can rightfully say the other side should not have a Nation because the other side doesn't have clean hands, when neither side has clean hands.

Now it is time to focus on creating two nations for two peoples. Once that is done, and only after this is done can there be an honest effort towards Truth and Reconciliation. Reconciling centuries of historic injustices cannot be a pre-condition to peace. However, a Just and Fair resolution to the current conflict CAN lead to an honest reconciliation some time in the future.

So I'm back to where I was yesterday. I still don't know what the point is of what you two are arguing about. You can both beat each other up about how neither side has had clean hands until the cows come home, and you will both be right. The only honest and productive debate is how and when we can get to the point where there are two states for two peoples. Only once that has been achieved can there be a chance at reconciling for all the dirty hands.




Now, do either one of you believe that one side or the other doesn't deserve a State due to their unclean hands?

Or do both of you agree that both sides must have a State, even though (like every single nation in the world) they both have a history that includes bigotry and hate?

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

Now, do either one of you believe that one side or the other doesn't deserve a State due to their unclean hands?

Or do both of you agree that both sides must have a State, even though (like every single nation in the world) they both have a history that includes bigotry and hate?

I'll accept the latter statement, but what I think doesn't matter. Many people believe the first statement, due to the sentiments being raised in our "pointless argument". That's precisely why it's not pointless, but rather it's at the crux of the situation.

[Javi335]

Originally Posted by 11Series

So now here we are. We've got two parties who do not have clean hands, who both have to live next to each other.

Actually many of they live togheter, muslims in Israel, jewish on muslims countrys, christians on both, and peacefully. The problem is not the people, are the politics and financial powers who are conflict between them and using the people for they interest. Its tooooo easy to get brainwashed.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Javi335

Actually many of they live togheter, muslims in Israel, jewish on muslims countrys, christians on both, and peacefully. The problem is not the people, are the politics and financial powers who are conflict between them and using the people for they interest. Its tooooo easy to get brainwashed.

So you don't have a problem with there being a Modern State of Israel, along side a Modern State of Palestine?

[Javi335]

Originally Posted by 11Series

So you don't have a problem with there being a Modern State of Israel, along side a Modern State of Palestine?

Of course not. Both people has right to have a country. A few post ago i writte the problem is not have or no to have, the problem is the way thing are be doing, and sorry, specially Israel.

[11Series]

I think it is a mistake to conclude that one side or the other is incapable or unwilling to agree to the peaceful co-existence of both a Modern State of Israel, and a Modern State of Palestine, just because each side loudly complains about the unclean hands of the other side.

Public opinion polls conducted in Israel and the West Bank among both Jews and Arabs overwhelmingly show that the people on both sides want a solution. This is true even though both sides can rattle off a dozens and dozens of ugly accusations against each other.

I apologize for stepping into your debate, but I sorta wanted to make a point. Even two guys ripping into each other in the politics/religion section (famous for divisiveness) can both agree on the two state solution. It's time for it to happen.

[Javi335]

I just want to finish my "speech" with a "confession", for those who call me nazi in the jew crew thread, wich cost me a ban.

A year ago i find my surnames on a list made by the rabbi Haim Levi, it says, and i quote it literally "recognized Jewish blood and descent"

And making a more deep search, i found it in another one, made by Harry Stein (i dont know who is that man) and says is based on sephardic genealogyc investigations.


I dont consider myself a jewish, but seems no question i have some of jew, and i got to say, if its true im very proud of it, although it be a 00000000000'1%

Well, mom and dad comes from cities with a great sephardic heritage, im not surprised at all. And it wont surprise nobody, Spain and jewish history have a great relathionship, read some about it. Im not the only one in Spain or we are just a few persons with jewish ancestry here.

So:

-I agree with a jewish state (peacefully made)

-I never deny the holocaust or things like that.

-Me myself (and i) got jewish blood and im proud

So, please dont call me a nazi or anti-semit no more; i reserve my right to criticize what i think some jewish sectors are doing wrong and to call the things by their proper name, if you are a jew and feels alluded and annoying is your problem, not mine.

[bkM3]

Originally Posted by 11Series

It is well established that there is an over-abundance of hate and bigotry on both sides. Neither side has clean hands.

It would be bigotry for anyone to claim any one side has had completely clean hands.
It would be bigotry for anyone to claim any one side has been the only ones who were bigoted and hateful.

So now here we are. We've got two parties who do not have clean hands, who both have to live next to each other. Neither side can rightfully say the other side should not have a Nation because the other side doesn't have clean hands, when neither side has clean hands.

Now it is time to focus on creating two nations for two peoples. Once that is done, and only after this is done can there be an honest effort towards Truth and Reconciliation. Reconciling centuries of historic injustices cannot be a pre-condition to peace. However, a Just and Fair resolution to the current conflict CAN lead to an honest reconciliation some time in the future.

So I'm back to where I was yesterday. I still don't know what the point is of what you two are arguing about. You can both beat each other up about how neither side has had clean hands until the cows come home, and you will both be right. The only honest and productive debate is how and when we can get to the point where there are two states for two peoples. Only once that has been achieved can there be a chance at reconciling for all the dirty hands.




Now, do either one of you believe that one side or the other doesn't deserve a State due to their unclean hands?

Or do both of you agree that both sides must have a State, even though (like every single nation in the world) they both have a history that includes bigotry and hate?

the problem with this is that every time an offer is made to the palestinians it is declined and they start to blow up buses. Israel has made so many concessions to the palestinians and all they have to show for it is more dead israelis. a 2 state solution is ideal in theory, the only problem is that only one side here really wants peace, the other wants the opposing side to be completely wiped off the face of the earth.

[jasonX]

Originally Posted by bkM3

the problem with this is that every time an offer is made to the palestinians it is declined and they start to blow up buses. Israel has made so many concessions to the palestinians and all they have to show for it is more dead israelis. a 2 state solution is ideal in theory, the only problem is that only one side here really wants peace, the other wants the opposing side to be completely wiped off the face of the earth.

Fallacies and Strawman rhetoic.

The closest time peace was nearly obtained as Israel was attempting to have fair negotiations, Yitzhak Rabin was murdered by a batshit crazy zionist.

Thereafter, the goal-post was moved repeatedly. If you want to bring up the bullshit offer Arafat was offered, it was a giant virtual prison where Israel controlled borders, airspace, critical resouces, continued IDF presense on Palestinian land, did not allow defense amongst a host of other bullshit clauses. Wow, such a fair offer sign me up.

Netanyahu is a known Zionist who is intent on claiming all of Palestine for Israel. This is clearly evident with the continued settlement expansions recognized worldwide as illegal.

Get your Racist banter out of here. Israel clearly has the ability to want peace as they could crush any Military in the ME as they have shown in the past. The present Israeli administration does not want peace and you are a fool which you have proven, if you believe the drivel you spew.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by bkM3

the problem with this is that every time an offer is made to the palestinians it is declined and they start to blow up buses. Israel has made so many concessions to the palestinians and all they have to show for it is more dead israelis. a 2 state solution is ideal in theory, the only problem is that only one side here really wants peace, the other wants the opposing side to be completely wiped off the face of the earth.

That's one side. It is clear that blowing up buses needs to stop. Calling for the defeat of Israel certainly doesn't help create a 2 state solution. Palestinian extremists certainly aren't helping. It would also help if Palestinians would quit fighting amongst themselves in factions.

If would also help the creation of a 2 state solution if:

1) The Palestinians would stop annexing more and more Israeli land.
2) The Palestinians would stop illegally transferring their citizens into occupied territory.
3) The Palestinians would stop blockading Israel.
4) The Palestinians would stop calling for "Haaretz Israel", where all of the West Bank and Israel described by Talmudic historic tradition would all belong to the Jewish "Chosen Ones", and Arabs who do not agree to live as second-class citizens would be forcefully deported or killed.
5) The Palestinians would stop saying that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian", and that Palestinians should all leave Israel and the West Bank and go live in Jordan.
6) Palestinian Rabbi's should stop saying Jews are justified by the Talmud to kill even innocent Muslim children if their existence gets in the way of Jews returning to rule over "Eretz Yisrael" (Greater Israel, including all the West Bank).
7) The Palestinians would stop their "Price Tag" attacks on Arab villages every time the Israeli gov't tried to enforce Israeli law on settlers.

Oh wait, scratch "Palestinians" from that list, and replace it with "Israelis". Israel also has it's own long list of things it is doing to perpetuate the conflict, just like the Palestinians. It's own long list of ugliness and rejection of solutions, including killing their own leader to stop peace.

BOTH sides have elements who are actively working on removing the other from the land. BOTH sides have people who say the other side has no legitimate claim to any land, and the other side should be removed or killed.


So what does it matter for creating 2 states, that both sides have historic complaints about the other? Yup, they both have done things wrong they should have done different. Time to move past that and implement 2 states and move forward from everything that has happened in the past.

Each side has complaints about the other side. But neither side's complaints invalidates the right for the other side to live in peace on their own land.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by 11Series

That's one side. It is clear that blowing up buses needs to stop. Calling for the defeat of Israel certainly doesn't help create a 2 state solution. Palestinian extremists certainly aren't helping. It would also help if Palestinians would quit fighting amongst themselves in factions.

If would also help the creation of a 2 state solution if:

1) The Palestinians would stop annexing more and more Israeli land.
2) The Palestinians would stop illegally transferring their citizens into occupied territory.
3) The Palestinians would stop blockading Israel.
4) The Palestinians would stop calling for "Haaretz Israel", where all of the West Bank and Israel described by Talmudic historic tradition would all belong to the Jewish "Chosen Ones", and Arabs who do not agree to live as second-class citizens would be forcefully deported or killed.
5) The Palestinians would stop saying that there is no such thing as a "Palestinian", and that Palestinians should all leave Israel and the West Bank and go live in Jordan.
6) Palestinian Rabbi's should stop saying Jews are justified by the Talmud to kill even innocent Muslim children if their existence gets in the way of Jews returning to rule over "Eretz Yisrael" (Greater Israel, including all the West Bank).
7) The Palestinians would stop their "Price Tag" attacks on Arab villages every time the Israeli gov't tried to enforce Israeli law on settlers.

Oh wait, scratch "Palestinians" from that list, and replace it with "Israelis". Israel also has it's own long list of things it is doing to perpetuate the conflict, just like the Palestinians. It's own long list of ugliness and rejection of solutions, including killing their own leader to stop peace.

BOTH sides have elements who are actively working on removing the other from the land. BOTH sides have people who say the other side has no legitimate claim to any land, and the other side should be removed or killed.


So what does it matter for creating 2 states, that both sides have historic complaints about the other? Yup, they both have done things wrong they should have done different. Time to move past that and implement 2 states and move forward from everything that has happened in the past.

Each side has complaints about the other side. But neither side's complaints invalidates the right for the other side to live in peace on their own land.

Theft of land also needs to stop and so does illegal occupation of stolen land. There are also over 600 resolutions that need to be addressed as well by Israel.

[stylinexpat]

Originally Posted by bkM3

the problem with this is that every time an offer is made to the palestinians it is declined and they start to blow up buses. Israel has made so many concessions to the palestinians and all they have to show for it is more dead israelis. a 2 state solution is ideal in theory, the only problem is that only one side here really wants peace, the other wants the opposing side to be completely wiped off the face of the earth.

There is the old saying of negotiating with the guy who stole your pizza to where he continues to eat your pizza as he negotiates how much of that pizza he is going to return back to you.

[stylinexpat]

Great news for Palestine

http://news.yahoo.com/palestine-beco...124118823.html

The US obviously has not been so neutral these years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-15518173

Following a US law passed in the 1990s, America has said it would cut funding to any UN body that admitted Palestine as a full member.

[Ahmed]

Originally Posted by driersheets

killing israelis is hezbollah.

cough iran cough

killing palestinians is israel.

cough USA cough

[bbbbmw]

Didn't realize this was such an old thread

[Ahmed]

It's a sequel resurrected!

[P-rex]

Palestinians contrary to ignorant beliefs... Don't hate the west.. Or America.... They dont support al queda nor idolized OBL...

They do have an issue with foreign occupation of their land after WW2 and the British gift to Jews...

While I have no ill will to the Jews... I do think that an ongoing conflict with the Palestinians is profitable to them with the US funding them $3B in hard earn American tax Benjamin's...

With the Iranian regime change happening very soon with new elections.... I see a moderate government coming into power and one that will try to warm up relations with the west... For the sake if prosperity... I think that is what the Obama administration is looking patiently to see before taking any action....

[P-rex]

I also think that Hamas militants are idiots thinking that firing missiles into Israel would be productive knowing that they do little damage and provoke the 'big bad wolf' to retaliate with brute force...

Endless cycle of stupidity....

[Ahmed]

P-Rex I agree with you 100%. I can see a moderate Iranian government coming in and trying to soften things up in teh region cause this is way too tense for everyone!