[arggg45]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

You're against "activist judges", but you're OK with rounding up a bunch of untried, unconvicted "terror suspects", and letting them rot for 10 years in a place that, through some legal loophole, is part of Cuba (which Americans were banned from) and therefore beyond any jurisdiction.

Not to completely piss in your cheerios, or even debate the point you're trying to make, you're mistaken when you say that the US maintains it's possession of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba through a 'legal loophole.'

The U.S. gained sovereignty over Guantanamo Bay as part of the Platt Amendment to the Cuban-American Treaty as a condition for the withdrawal of United States troops remaining in Cuba from the Spanish–American War. The treaty explicitly states that the United States has complete sovereignty over the area established in the treaty for the express purpose of a naval base, and Cuba itself retains ultimate sovereignty.

Furthermore, the U.S. leases Guantanamo Bay from Cuba, and continues to send lease payments (IIRC, ~4k/yr in 1934 Equivalent Dollars) to Cuba.The 1934 lease was made permanent by acceptance of the initial lease payment until such time that both governments agree to break the lease, or the U.S. abandons the naval base. To date, since the Cuban Revolution, only one of these rent checks has been cashed, with the rest left uncashed, though the U.S. continues to send a check annually.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by arggg45

Not to completely piss in your cheerios, or even debate the point you're trying to make, you're mistaken when you say that the US maintains it's possession of Guantanamo Bay, Cuba through a 'legal loophole.'

The U.S. gained sovereignty over Guantanamo Bay as part of the Platt Amendment to the Cuban-American Treaty as a condition for the withdrawal of United States troops remaining in Cuba from the Spanish–American War. The treaty explicitly states that the United States has complete sovereignty over the area established in the treaty for the express purpose of a naval base, and Cuba itself retains ultimate sovereignty.

Furthermore, the U.S. leases Guantanamo Bay from Cuba, and continues to send lease payments (IIRC, ~4k/yr in 1934 Equivalent Dollars) to Cuba.The 1934 lease was made permanent by acceptance of the initial lease payment until such time that both governments agree to break the lease, or the U.S. abandons the naval base. To date, since the Cuban Revolution, only one of these rent checks has been cashed, with the rest left uncashed, though the U.S. continues to send a check annually.

Interesting, but I was referring to the legal loophole that exempts it from international law, yes?

[arggg45]

First, from our previous discussions on economics, I know that you and I agree on very little, and I am not making any arguments about the politics of the Guantanamo Bay comment you made. Unfortunately, due to the unwillingness to try to understand where the other side is coming from these threads often fall into partisan bitching and bickering without anyone actually getting a better understanding of the issues.

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Interesting, but I was referring to the legal loophole that exempts it from international law, yes?

International Law is a unbelievably complicated area of the law with grey areas so large it isn't even funny, but I'll take a stab at explaining how it isn't 'exempt' from international law.

If you are referring to how the prisoners are treated, it is 'legal' because they are not classified as Prisoners of War under the Geneva Convention because they do not fight unified, under the flag of a sovereign nation, and are classified as 'Enemy Combatants' of an 'Armed Conflict.' I'm not going to try to debate the legality of this classification of either the combatants or our military action because I don't know the underlying statutes and would rather not try to attack a legal issue that has effectively baffled the best international attorneys in the country.

Not a loophole, per se, but I see what you're getting at...

If you are referring to the actual possession of Guantanamo Bay, there are really three ways to dispute the possession. (Note: I am NOT commenting on what goes on at Guantanamo Bay, just how the possession of the land and associated sovereignty is legal)

1) Assuming the possession of the land is legal as outlined in the aforementioned treaties, as a U.S. Military base, with the associated sovereignties. Therefore the base is required to be in compliance with Federal Law.

2) If you are referring to the Cuban American treaty's legality post-Cuban Revolution- since the post-revolution government cashed a single rent check from the United States, it is viewed under international contract law to ratify the covenants lease — and that ratification by the new government renders moot any questions about violations of sovereignty and illegal military occupation.

3) If you are referring to the original 1903/1934 treaties being imposed under force, and no longer being applicable under modern international law (Violating articles 60-64 of the Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties, article 4 of the Law of treaties prohibits retroactive application of articles 60-64 to existing treaties. (1903.1934 treaties were executed prior to the passing of the Law of Treaties).

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

Easy there, fella! In case you haven't noticed, every thread in this forum has a theme of bashing Obama & democrats. So when you complain about a staple of American society (like it or not), the inference is that you're blaming the current admin for something that existed long before (during Bush and prior). That's all. And apparently, that's not what you were doing, but it begs the question: why bring it up in this thread?

I didn't, you did. See my first post and what I quoted. You brought up the fact that conservatives/republicans are all for social security and medicare but against the healthcare reform. I simply stated I'm really not a fan of any of those systems, although they all have their pros and cons, and I stated why I am not necessarily a fan of those systems. There are things I like, and things I don't like. Also, I do feel differently about taxes. Although I don't necessarily agree with the idea of the income tax, it must be in place especially with today's deficit. There's no other way to get rid of it, however the rich should be taxed more, and these Bush tax cuts that have been going on for far too long are just doing more and more harm, day by day... Another topic for another time I guess...

And 11Series. Go back and read the whole thread and read what I posted at the start. You haven't even been in any of the posts in the thread. You just jumped in here, and you seem just as angry for no real reason.

Well if I will only get about 80% of it, then why can't I stop paying 100% of what is required? Why can't I be treated as an adult and given the chance to make my own retirement and investment plan (yes I do this, but I am still required to pay into social security)? Oh, because the money needs to be used for "other purposes" such as unemployment benefits which are a total scam nowadays. I understand giving benefits to those who are genuinely out of work and are actively pursuing employment, but there are a lot who do not quite meet the criteria, yet somehow still receive benefits.

I wasn't asked how my post relates to the thread. Did you read the thread or just read your friend's last post? I'm thinking the latter. I was asked why I wasn't posting here when Bush was in charge, or what any of what I posted had to do with the Obama administration. I answered both, since my post wasn't directly aimed at Obama, and I answered how I felt about Bush.

Seriously, what's up? Everything that doesn't agree with you is an attack on the almighty Obama and automatically Bush was wayyy better. That's not what I am saying at all.

Now I remember why I don't come here, I'll make my way back over to the car forums.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Templar

Now I remember why I don't come here, I'll make my way back over to the car forums.

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. Bye bye, and have fun losing you pretty 2011 M3 because you were too dumb to buy Health Insurance to protect your assets. So long.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

Don't let the door hit ya where the good lord split ya. Bye bye, and have fun losing you pretty 2011 M3 because you were too dumb to buy Health Insurance to protect your assets. So long.

Where did I ever say I didn't have health insurance? Is that all you can come up with? I guess I will just resort to personal attacks too, you're an idiot.

I think I'll stick around, I'll just keep you on ignore. Jealousy is very unbecoming... You're so angry you can't even spell properly, l..o..l...

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by OldArmy

One little, not-so-witty cartoon

Well at least we agree on something!

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by Templar

See my first post and what I quoted. You brought up the fact that conservatives/republicans are all for social security and medicare but against the healthcare reform.

True. But I was making the point that conservatives think that only liberals are partaking in social programs.

Originally Posted by Templar

I simply stated I'm really not a fan of any of those systems, although they all have their pros and cons, and I stated why I am not necessarily a fan of those systems. There are things I like, and things I don't like. Also, I do feel differently about taxes. Although I don't necessarily agree with the idea of the income tax, it must be in place especially with today's deficit. There's no other way to get rid of it, however the rich should be taxed more, and these Bush tax cuts that have been going on for far too long are just doing more and more harm, day by day...

Agree as well. As I previously explained, I labled your comments "misguided" because I assumed your were intentionally referring to these systems as products of Obama/democrats.

There's a trend in these forums to tag the current administration with blame for long-standing issues, from the corporate tax rate, to foreign policy, nuclear energy, social programs, and more. Look at the threads in this forum: they are ALL started by conservatives, and they are ALL anti-Obama/ anti-democrat. So don't be surprised when we get defensive.

[AudiS5]

I laughed. If you agree with what's going on this country right now then you're a fucking idiot.

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by AudiS5

I laughed. If you agree with what's going on this country right now then you're a fucking idiot.

??????

Not sure which way you're going with that, but here's the way this country is going:

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- From 1979 to 2007, average household income for the nation's top 1% more than tripled, while middle-class incomes grew by less than 40%, according to a new report from a research arm of Congress.
While those at the top have seen their incomes soar over the past three decades, middle-class and lower incomes have stagnated, the report by the Congressional Budget Office found.
Over the past three decades, the distribution of income in the United States has become increasingly dispersed -- in particular, the share of income accruing to high-income households has increased, whereas the share accruing to other households has declined," the CBO said.
For the top 1% of the population, average inflation-adjusted household income grew by 275%. The rest of wealthiest fifth of the population, not including the top 1%, saw household income grow by 65% during that time, faster than the rest of the population, but "not nearly as fast as for the top 1%."
For middle-class earners, it was a different story.
Household income grew by just under 40% and the poorest fifth of the population saw their incomes rise by just 18% in a little less than 30 years, according to the study, which was based on IRS and Census data.
During that time, income ballooned at the top of the spectrum and government policy did less to redistribute wealth, the CBO found.
"The rapid growth in average real household income for the 1% of the population with the highest income was a major factor contributing to the growing inequality in the distribution of household income between 1979 and 2007," the report said. "Shifts in government transfers and federal taxes also contributed to that increase in inequality."

Just to clarify, I'm all for people making money, and I have nothing but respect for the entrepreneurs in this country. I also feel it's up to the company's board of directors to decide how much to pay their CEO, and that should be a private business decision.

But when it comes to taxes, the middle class is getting squeezed by too-high of a tax burden relative to income, while the upper class is paying at the lowest tax rate in US history.

[bolinp78]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

But when it comes to taxes, the middle class is getting squeezed by too-high of a tax burden relative to income, while the upper class is paying at the lowest tax rate in US history.

Just out of curiosity, where can I find a non-partisan chart that gives me a visual of your above quote?

[ScotchAndCigar]

Originally Posted by bolinp78

Just out of curiosity, where can I find a non-partisan chart that gives me a visual of your above quote?

Is the IRS non-partisan enough?
http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-soi/histab23.xls

With the exception of '88-92 (and there are additional qualifiers for those years), we're at the lowest rate since 1932. And before you cry foul, the rate difference between now and 88-92 is insignificant in the big picture. For much of the last century, the top rate has been 70% or higher.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by ScotchAndCigar

True. But I was making the point that conservatives think that only liberals are partaking in social programs.

Agree as well. As I previously explained, I labled your comments "misguided" because I assumed your were intentionally referring to these systems as products of Obama/democrats.

There's a trend in these forums to tag the current administration with blame for long-standing issues, from the corporate tax rate, to foreign policy, nuclear energy, social programs, and more. Look at the threads in this forum: they are ALL started by conservatives, and they are ALL anti-Obama/ anti-democrat. So don't be surprised when we get defensive.

Agreed! I've noticed it as well just after looking at a few of the threads over the last couple of days.

It wasn't my intent to tag Obama with blame for anything I mentioned.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Templar

Where did I ever say I didn't have health insurance? Is that all you can come up with? I guess I will just resort to personal attacks too, you're an idiot.

I think I'll stick around, I'll just keep you on ignore. Jealousy is very unbecoming... You're so angry you can't even spell properly, l..o..l...

Just what I thought, you've got health insurance like I'd said two posts ago.

So when you said the following, you were just making up mindless political bullshit:

Originally Posted by Templar

I'd like to walk into the doctor's office if I am sick, and pay him directly for services rendered to me to diagnose or make me feel better.

Because there is nobody stopping you from dropping your insurance and paying in cash. If you really want it like you claim, do it.

But you don't really want what you claim to want. You just want to put out some false and intellectually disingenuous political baloney, and then you don't want to own up to it when you are caught red-handed.


Go ahead and put me on ignore. I'll just keep pointing out to everyone else here how intellectually disingenuous you are over and over. Please stick around. It's always nice to have a blatantly intellectually disingenuous foil in order to point out how completely false typical arguments against health care and other topics really are. Not having you respond will just be a bonus.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

Just what I thought, you've got health insurance like I'd said two posts ago.

So when you said the following, you were just making up mindless political bullshit:



Because there is nobody stopping you from dropping your insurance and paying in cash. If you really want it like you claim, do it.

But you don't really want what you claim to want. You just want to put out some false and intellectually disingenuous political baloney, and then you don't want to own up to it when you are caught red-handed.


Go ahead and put me on ignore. I'll just keep pointing out to everyone else here how intellectually disingenuous you are over and over. Please stick around. It's always nice to have a blatantly intellectually disingenuous foil in order to point out how completely false typical arguments against health care and other topics really are. Not having you respond will just be a bonus.

^ lol, more made up bullshit. What a queer.

You go ahead and say I don't have healthcare, then when I say I do you say "I knew it!" You're more incompetent than I thought. In my current position and employment state, I can't just drop healthcare and pay out of pocket. I have one option, so I go with it. That doesn't change the fact that I would like other options. You just keep making shit up. What is it like living in your mother's basement and trolling internet forums all day?

Now officially ignored, since he can't do anything but make shit up about me without any real argument. What factual evidence do you have on any of the accusations you've made (all personal attacks by the way) against me? All you can say is that I am "intellectually disingenuous." If anyone is intellectually flawed, it's you. And jealous to boot.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Templar

^ lol, more made up bullshit. What a ******.

I guess you didn't have the courage to publicly admit you are two-faced here, so you had to PM it:

PM from Templar:
****************
What I would LIKE to do and what I CAN do are two totally different things. You don't know anything about me, yet you presume you do and make up total bullshit because you think you're some sort of badass, when you're really just a jealous ******.
***************

I'm not jealous of being two-faced.

Either you really want to do is to drop your health insurance and pay in cash, or you don't.

There is no "CAN" about it. You absolutely CAN! Nobody is stopping you.

So just give us all the answer straight. Which is it? Do you want to drop your health insurance and pay in cash or not?

Stop being a two-faced weasel and be honest for the entire 8 seconds it would take to respond to this direct question.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

I guess you didn't have the courage to publicly admit you are two-faced here, so you had to PM it:

PM from Templar:
****************
What I would LIKE to do and what I CAN do are two totally different things. You don't know anything about me, yet you presume you do and make up total bullshit because you think you're some sort of badass, when you're really just a jealous ******.
***************

I'm not jealous of being two-faced.

Either you really want to do is to drop your health insurance and pay in cash, or you don't.

There is no "CAN" about it. You absolutely CAN! Nobody is stopping you.

So just give us all the answer straight. Which is it? Do you want to drop your health insurance and pay in cash or not?

Stop being a two-faced weasel and be honest for the entire 8 seconds it would take to respond to this direct question.

Actually, because of my job, I absolutely CANNOT. If you were as intelligent as you are pretending to be, you might have figured out what my job is, and why I cannot just openly post about my job and what my political feelings are. I guess I am kind of doing so now, so taking a bit of a risk here (another reason I'll probably stop posting here).

Maybe you'll figure it out without me spoonfeeding it to you.

I am an extremely healthy individual, and have been in the hospital once in my life for an injury sustained at my job. I never get sick, and other than that once I have never been injured to the point of needing medical care. I would love to pay for my own care if prices are reasonable (which nowadays they are not and haven't been for quite some time because of technology). I haven't missed of day of work for "illness" in I don't know how long, since the most I ever get is the sniffles from a little cold.

The jealousy really came out when you made up stuff presuming I would lose my car. The car has been paid off, buddy... I don't need to borrow money to get what I want, I've earned everything on my own.

I am really out though this time. Not worth the trouble or the time, since obviously you are so personally offended by what my opinions and feelings are.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by Templar

Actually, because of my job, I absolutely CANNOT. If you were as intelligent as you are pretending to be, you might have figured out what my job is, and why I cannot just openly post about my job and what my political feelings are. I guess I am kind of doing so now, so taking a bit of a risk here (another reason I'll probably stop posting here).

Maybe you'll figure it out without me spoonfeeding it to you.

I am an extremely healthy individual, and have been in the hospital once in my life for an injury sustained at my job. I never get sick, and other than that once I have never been injured to the point of needing medical care. I would love to pay for my own care if prices are reasonable (which nowadays they are not and haven't been for quite some time because of technology). I haven't missed of day of work for "illness" in I don't know how long, since the most I ever get is the sniffles from a little cold.

The jealousy really came out when you made up stuff presuming I would lose my car. The car has been paid off, buddy... I don't need to borrow money to get what I want, I've earned everything on my own.

So what you are implying is that you have free gov't health care, provided for you by US tax payers, and you will have free gov't health care provided by US tax payers for life. Maybe you should just be GRATEFUL for that???


If you had no health insurance, and you had bills, YES you would lose your M3, paid for or not. It would actually be one of the first assets designated for liquidation in a bankruptcy proceeding, or in collection proceedings. Millions of people who can't get health insurance through NO CHOICE of their own are living that reality right now, along with losing their savings, their houses, etc. Maybe you should just be GRATEFUL the US tax payers have made sure you will never know what that is like.


EDIT: You need to grow a thicker skin if you taking critical critiques of your political "opinions and feelings" as being just "personal". You have political opinions, you are in the political forum posting them. Others will rip apart your political "opinions and feelings". Grow up.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by 11Series

So what you are implying is that you have free gov't health care, provided for you by US tax payers, and you will have free gov't health care provided by US tax payers for life. Maybe you should just be GRATEFUL for that???


If you had no health insurance, and you had bills, YES you would lose your M3, paid for or not. It would actually be one of the first assets designated for liquidation in a bankruptcy proceeding, or in collection proceedings. Millions of people who can't get health insurance through NO CHOICE of their own are living that right now. Maybe you should just be GRATEFUL the US tax payers have made sure you will never know what that is like.

Yea, free. I haven't given up anything for it... It's also not for life, it depends on when I decide to move on. There's a LOT about it that you don't know here, and I don't expect you to, so I won't go into great detail with it.

I am grateful, but I also feel I am entitled to it for what I have done, for over 10 years now, and almost half of that time being in places no one should ever have to go to. Yes, I am a volunteer, but in reality you only "voluteer" once, then for a while you are "voluntold" as we say. I also pay taxes, so it's not like I am freeloading here. You think all of my income is tax free and goes straight to me? Shows how little you really know...

Money isn't the only measure of value.

[NYCGP]

Originally Posted by 11Series

Looks like 3 childish Republicans (redundant) who think that candy is their candy (they earned it) when really they are also benefiting from social programs and hand-outs just like everyone else.

Really... come on 1.. It's political satire. It's meant for humor and nothing more. I laugh at people that think John Stewart's the devil because he makes fun of the republican party. It is done for entertainment and nothing more. If you can't laugh at stuff like this, life must be pretty dull.. Let the guard down every once and a while and smile a little bit.

[11Series]

Originally Posted by NYCGP

Really... come on 1.. It's political satire. It's meant for humor and nothing more. I laugh at people that think John Stewart's the devil because he makes fun of the republican party. It is done for entertainment and nothing more. If you can't laugh at stuff like this, life must be pretty dull.. Let the guard down every once and a while and smile a little bit.

I was laughing when I wrote it.

What's funnier than pointing out that in a piece of political satire, there is an underlying unintentional layer of satire that goes completely in opposition to the author's original intent? You like the direct satire on the face of the piece, I like the underlying satire. Tomayto/Tomahto.

I'm not sure what YOUR problem is?




Edit: Oh, and it's "11", not "1". As in a reference to Spinal Tap's line about their amplifiers having volumes labeled from 1 to 11, and they can turn them up to 11 (because that's 1 higher...). It's funny. You laugh now. My entire moniker is based upon humor, so saying I don't have any sense of humor is pretty funny.

[mact3333]

Guys, try not engage the liberal attack dogs...they are focused and determined...they are full of vitriol and hate it is so obvious...they know just enough to be dangerous...ya know, like 80%, but they dont realize that last 20% is actually important...just kiddin ya guys, I really like 11 and Scotch...we hang out all the time and discuss life, football and even cross stitching all the time...

They sound like mean hateful people, but in life, they are quite the jokesters and even tell me Obama racist jokes.....