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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Serious Anti-Sway Bar Talk



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      11-08-2011, 08:06 PM   #23
e90pilot
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I haven't heard about the Dinan bar. I wonder why it's not that popular.
Usually people don't by it alone. They buy it with the suspension kit. That's what I did.
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      11-08-2011, 08:09 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I wish I can keep it like this, but car understeers immensely. My old GTi had less understeer than this, and thats sad. I would love to put the M3 bar in the back, but as e90pilot stated, I am not a big fan of stiff bars, makes the car feel boxy and gittery on straights.

Wish there was an option for around 15mm.
http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...80&hg=33&fg=45
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      11-08-2011, 08:44 PM   #25
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Interesting! This actually fits a non Xi model?
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      11-08-2011, 08:46 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90pilot View Post
Usually people don't by it alone. They buy it with the suspension kit. That's what I did.
How do you like it?
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      11-08-2011, 09:05 PM   #27
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w/o reading this whole thread, put your c/o on first and go from there.
If you still want to increase rear roll bar, BMW makes a 14mm and 15mm rear bar.
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      11-08-2011, 09:22 PM   #28
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Hotchkiss' rear bar is a 16mm. That is what I am putting on mine. I already installed the front and was waiting for my LSD to come in too before I install the rear.

I will have my ZSP sways up for sale soon if you are interested.
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      11-08-2011, 09:52 PM   #29
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Roll bar springrate. Assuming same dimensions.

13 mm ... 24 lb/in
14 mm ... 32 lb/in
15 mm ... 42 lb/in
M3 ....... 109 lb/in
20 mm .. 133 lb/in
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      11-08-2011, 10:43 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
Interesting! This actually fits a non Xi model?
The E93 is also supposed to have a 15mm rear bar; not sure if it's the same bar. A BMW dealer could tell you.
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      11-08-2011, 11:48 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
How do you like it?
I have stage 3 on mine. I ran it with stock stagger at first. Then I ran it with a 245 tire up front. Made a huge difference but Dinan tuned it that way so it makes sense. Rides like crap though.
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      11-08-2011, 11:53 PM   #32
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Rides like crap though.
Ouch.
I guess I should try the M3 rear one first. Test it out. If it gives me few close calls, I will upgrade the front with M3 also.
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      11-09-2011, 01:01 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I wish I can keep it like this, but car understeers immensely. My old GTi had less understeer than this, and thats sad. I would love to put the M3 bar in the back, but as e90pilot stated, I am not a big fan of stiff bars, makes the car feel boxy and gittery on straights.

Wish there was an option for around 15mm.
Agreed with the understeer to a point... but - dunno what gen GTi you refer to (mine was a mark 4), while the understeer is comparable in the braking half of a turn, in the acceleration half it almost completely disappears on the bimmer because of the RWD.

As for the straights... the sway bar does not do anything in straights, it only works when an asymmetrical load is received by the springs (cornering, or hitting bumps with only one side on the car, or 3-wheeled inclines ;-) ).

I actually loved my stiff RSB's on the golf given it's inherent understeer during acceleration, best by far being the Shine. I never upgraded the front sway because a stiffer one makes the car understeer more. So while I am scrathing my head over the thick M3 bar, given the V8 in that car - which would cause even more understeer - I'm figuring the lighter N52 I6 will then maybe oversteer a little ?

Having said that, I might do the rear first and then see how it compares... (but I'm also upgrading to M3 control arms).

One other thing is while I'm on the 18" staggered and the wider patch should have more adherence, I'm slipping in corners if I drive out it harder. So while some say this is a 335i issue, it is present in the 328i as well (even with the OEM sport susp).

The stagger effect is another debatable issue, some say it worsens the dynamics some like Harold say that is not true. After all f1 cars are like that for a reason, granted the suspension there is way beyong anything on-street.
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      11-09-2011, 01:48 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by DaanBMW View Post
As for the straights... the sway bar does not do anything in straights, it only works when an asymmetrical load is received by the springs (cornering, or hitting bumps with only one side on the car, or 3-wheeled inclines ;-) ).
When I took off the FSB on MK4 GTi, car felt totally different. Steering got way more feel, left the "boxy" feeling that you get when you turn the wheel. Had way more feed back through the turns. But it ate thru control arm bushings. Had to replace them every 30K or so. Auto-X'ers have told me that the car actually handles worse on the track with no FSB, but for street use, I would have never gone back.

I put a 28mm RSB on it, car handled like a dream. Front had lots of feel, while the back cooperated nicely. However, on a highway straights, back was very gittery from the thick RSB, due to restricting individual side movements of rear suspension.


My e90 currently does have good feel, due to having a balanced RWD chassis, but I can feel it could be so much better. With DTC on, back does slide out easily on wet surfaces. However, during everyday driving, I can feel the back end is a little "lazy". So that's why I am going after RSB to get the right feel. I know it's an expensive installation and want to get it right the first time...
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      11-09-2011, 11:22 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
When I took off the FSB on MK4 GTi, car felt totally different. Steering got way more feel, left the "boxy" feeling that you get when you turn the wheel. Had way more feed back through the turns. But it ate thru control arm bushings. Had to replace them every 30K or so. Auto-X'ers have told me that the car actually handles worse on the track with no FSB, but for street use, I would have never gone back.

I put a 28mm RSB on it, car handled like a dream. Front had lots of feel, while the back cooperated nicely. However, on a highway straights, back was very gittery from the thick RSB, due to restricting individual side movements of rear suspension.


My e90 currently does have good feel, due to having a balanced RWD chassis, but I can feel it could be so much better. With DTC on, back does slide out easily on wet surfaces. However, during everyday driving, I can feel the back end is a little "lazy". So that's why I am going after RSB to get the right feel. I know it's an expensive installation and want to get it right the first time...
My friend has a Mk5 GTI with a 28mm solid RSB. It handles perfect but it goes up on 3 wheels every time you turn lol!

On the subject of stagger, keep this in mind. The e90 335 and 328, 325, 330 all have the same sport suspension and alignment and tire stagger and all have different power outputs. Older BMW didn't do this. A 530 sport had a square setup and the 540 had only 20mm of stagger. Not sure why a 325 has 30mm of stagger and 215hp. F1 cars have 800hp. Can you tune the suspension to work with the effects of the stagger and lack of power? Sure. This is what Harold is getting at. It's just not my preference. You have to make the rear so stiff and add lots of camber to the front. Stock for stock a non-sport has way better balance than a sport even though it has lower limits.
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      11-09-2011, 12:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
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Stock for stock a non-sport has way better balance than a sport even though it has lower limits.
Interesting. I thought about this too. Mine felt more balanced with stock 16"s.

Older models always had stagger due to lack of sophisticated traction control?
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      11-09-2011, 01:36 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
When I took off the FSB on MK4 GTi, car felt totally different. Steering got way more feel, left the "boxy" feeling that you get when you turn the wheel. Had way more feed back through the turns. But it ate thru control arm bushings. Had to replace them every 30K or so. Auto-X'ers have told me that the car actually handles worse on the track with no FSB, but for street use, I would have never gone back.
Well, steering input does load the springs asymmetrically too, but I would really think it'll make the steering less precise, but yes maybe more "comfortable" [edit] and increase oversteer (which in a FWD means more neutral steering) [edit]. I had an Autotech lower front tie bar that did miracles to the steering precision by reducing the flex in the suspension.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I put a 28mm RSB on it, car handled like a dream. Front had lots of feel, while the back cooperated nicely. However, on a highway straights, back was very gittery from the thick RSB, due to restricting individual side movements of rear suspension.


My e90 currently does have good feel, due to having a balanced RWD chassis, but I can feel it could be so much better. With DTC on, back does slide out easily on wet surfaces. However, during everyday driving, I can feel the back end is a little "lazy". So that's why I am going after RSB to get the right feel. I know it's an expensive installation and want to get it right the first time...
The reduction in rear wheel spin out of corners is one of my 2 main objectives, the 2nd one being the reduction in body roll under braking. If you do rear sway look into subframe bushings as well. I think the whole rear needs less movement/flex.
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      11-09-2011, 10:07 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post

Is there anything in between 13mm - 20mm?

Thanks in advance.

Yes, try convertible 335i a 15mm. Convertible 135i a 14mm.

The increase in roll stiffness is minimum and probably not worth the 3 hours of labor changing it.
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      11-11-2011, 12:58 PM   #39
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With coil overs + M3 rear sway, would the ride be considerably bad in the back?
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      11-12-2011, 06:22 PM   #40
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With coil overs + M3 rear sway, would the ride be considerably bad in the back?
With the runflats you will likely have a very harsh ride. Going to non RFT's will help a whole lot.

I have KW Series 1 with Michelin Pilot Super Sports and the ride is at least as good if not better than stock with runflats.
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      11-12-2011, 06:53 PM   #41
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With the runflats you will likely have a very harsh ride. Going to non RFT's will help a whole lot.

I have KW Series 1 with Michelin Pilot Super Sports and the ride is at least as good if not better than stock with runflats.
I changed out of RFT's recently..best thing I've ever done, till I get a flat tire at least...
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      08-20-2012, 08:13 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sle39lvr View Post
I want to talk about rear sways for the most part.

I have a non-sport E90 328i (pre LCI) and reloem.com states me rear sway as:
13mm - 33556764425

After months of research on this board, it seems like no ones knows if the ZSP has thicker sway bars or not. If anyone who reads this knows, please state...

I put 18" stock staggered wheels, and planning to get coilovers and want to go slightly lower than sports package height. (sports package is .6" lower and I want to go around 1").

Ultimately, I do want m3 control arms up front, but DO NOT WANT to touch the front sway bar. If anything, I would go skinnier up front. My last fwd car, I ran with a thicker sway in the back and no sway up front, feel was 100 better.

So down to the question:
After putting 18", I can tell car understeers even more (probably due to wider tires in the back). I want to put a thicker sway in the back to have the car feel neutral. Popular solution here seems like the M3 rear sway, which I think will be too much for me. Will be harsh in the back in straight line and stories about snap-oversteer scares me.

M3 rear sway is 20mm?
H&R also makes a 20mm one.

Is there anything in between 13mm - 20mm?

Thanks in advance.
Yes, removing front sway would be the easy and cheap way to get better balance, and to reduce understeer by increasing the mechanical grip in the front.
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      08-20-2012, 08:49 AM   #43
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Ive only heard the opposite. Basically a Fat front sway (e93 M3) and stock rear sway will be the best setup. Harold@HPA can for sur ehelp out the best.
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      08-20-2012, 09:05 AM   #44
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Ive only heard the opposite. Basically a Fat front sway (e93 M3) and stock rear sway will be the best setup. Harold@HPA can for sur ehelp out the best.
That would get the understeer worse.
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