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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Suspension | Brakes | Chassis > Rogue Engineering rear toe arms review



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      11-23-2011, 07:31 PM   #1
DaFish
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Rogue Engineering rear toe arms review

Here are the arms I purchased from Harold at HPA for $290
http://www.hpashop.com/Rogue-Enginer...rms-E9X-TA.htm

Current Engine mods:
Procede Rev 2.5 (11-1 map), BMS DCI, AR Catless DPs, AMS FMIC, Procede PWM Meth, Forge DVs, CDV delete,

Front Suspension:
Dinan Stage 3 susp = dinan camber plates, swaybars (front and rear), springs and shocks - PLUS: front M3 wishbones/tension arms

Rear Suspension: rear M3 upper and lower control arms, Subframe bushings, Wavetrac LSD, rear Dinan Sway

PROBLEM:

I was experiencing torque steer on WOT when all the new power kicked in with the Meth and agressive 11-1 maps.

This was sucking all my confidence out of the drive as the car moved around STILL - after doing the rear end with all the parts. I was expecting after the subframe bushings, to have the rear end planted... not the case. I could keep my hands rock solid on the wheel, mat it and the car would end up in the left lane. I believe there was some indirection on heavy braking too, but that didn't bother me as much.

Either case, after spending all this cash on the car, it STILL wasn't right and I wasn't happy with it. I was expecting for a M3 laser straightness for accel and decel.

SOLUTION: Rogue Engineering Toe Arms

I got my parts in on Tues, and I just got back from the BMW stealership and had the 4 wheel alignment done (which was not done after all the rear end work by the way - which could have added to the misalignment).

RESULT:
The car tracks a straight line now. I can mat it, one finger on the wheel and it tracks a straight line. Braking seems to be solid and straight too.

I do notice some movement some times - but this could be from the fact that the rear end is spinning.... in Third gear, it was solid and straight.

I only drove it for a bit tonight (about 1.5 hours) but really noticed the improvement. I"ll review in a few weeks again.
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      11-23-2011, 07:40 PM   #2
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Do you hear any new noises with these links?
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      11-23-2011, 08:03 PM   #3
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Sounds good! Any increase in NVH? Any change in on-center steering feel at high speed? Do you notice if straight-line stability is better, or did that already seem perfect?

Thanks for the review.
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      11-23-2011, 10:17 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
Do you hear any new noises with these links?
The bearings are sealed. I would not expect any clunking at least for 3 months...
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      11-23-2011, 10:21 PM   #5
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So if one is feeling the same but low on cash...would upgrading this without m3 bits be worth it?
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      11-24-2011, 04:14 AM   #6
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Thanks for your review. Looking forward to getting these installed on my car. I also hope they will hold up well over time, with our winters and the salty roads.
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      11-24-2011, 10:29 AM   #7
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Thanks for your review. I got mine a few days ago and will be installing them early next year.

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      11-24-2011, 01:29 PM   #8
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Nice review. I'll be placing my order tomorrow hoping for a Black Friday discount lol.

To anyone wondering about the rear upper arms and guide rods, I honestly didn't feel any difference after replacing them on my car. Who knows what the difference would be with the rogue rear arms and no M rear bits tho. Needless too say, I won't be taking mine off haha
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      11-24-2011, 02:09 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasillalov View Post
The bearings are sealed. I would not expect any clunking at least for 3 months...
Clunking???
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      11-24-2011, 02:14 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmw135er View Post
Nice review. I'll be placing my order tomorrow hoping for a Black Friday discount lol.

To anyone wondering about the rear upper arms and guide rods, I honestly didn't feel any difference after replacing them on my car. Who knows what the difference would be with the rogue rear arms and no M rear bits tho. Needless too say, I won't be taking mine off haha
The guide rods should reduce wheel hop during straight acceleration.
You're probably right about the upper links-they don't do much.
Ever pass a car quickly on a 2 lane road? My car torque steers when I do that, even w/the m3 subframe bushings. These toe links should eliminate/reduce that..
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      11-24-2011, 03:12 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
The guide rods should reduce wheel hop during straight acceleration.
You're probably right about the upper links-they don't do much.
Ever pass a car quickly on a 2 lane road? My car torque steers when I do that, even w/the m3 subframe bushings. These toe links should eliminate/reduce that..
That's exactly what I'm fighting. Most noticeable in 3rd and 4th under heavy load/peak boost. Of course it does it in the first couple gears also, but also wheel spin is a factor there. Especially with wider than stock tires.
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      11-24-2011, 05:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
Sounds good! Any increase in NVH? Any change in on-center steering feel at high speed? Do you notice if straight-line stability is better, or did that already seem perfect?

Thanks for the review.
What is NVH?

On center feel is better car track better, less tramlining

Straight line better, and no it wasn't right before but that could have been my alignment

High speed feels muchbetter
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      11-24-2011, 05:25 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
So if one is feeling the same but low on cash...would upgrading this without m3 bits be worth it?
I don't know.. Harold says do the M3 arms first

I think I would do these last if you have a mountain of power (meth) and have done the m3 arms like I did
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      11-24-2011, 05:29 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
Thanks for your review. I got mine a few days ago and will be installing them early next year.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Alpina do you feel what I described? Looking forward to hearing how you describe the benefit of the mod after track testing

I am not convinced the issue is 100% gone, but it certainly is 90% gone, much better and acceptable.
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      11-24-2011, 05:31 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bmw135er View Post
Nice review. I'll be placing my order tomorrow hoping for a Black Friday discount lol.

To anyone wondering about the rear upper arms and guide rods, I honestly didn't feel any difference after replacing them on my car. Who knows what the difference would be with the rogue rear arms and no M rear bits tho. Needless too say, I won't be taking mine off haha
The guide rods should reduce wheel hop during straight acceleration.
You're probably right about the upper links-they don't do much.
Ever pass a car quickly on a 2 lane road? My car torque steers when I do that, even w/the m3 subframe bushings. These toe links should eliminate/reduce that..
Bingo! That is the prob
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      11-24-2011, 05:35 PM   #16
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Quote:
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What is NVH?
Noise
Vibration
Harshness
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      11-26-2011, 12:36 PM   #17
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I second DaFish's findings.

I have Velocity motorcars rear suspension links, and they really help keep everything planted in the rear. Since there's no rubber bushings at each of the links, steering input is increased. Having said that, yes, NVH is up a bit.

Additionally, I track my car and it was well worth the effort to change over these types of toe arms.
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Last edited by Thumperx; 11-26-2011 at 02:26 PM.
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      11-26-2011, 06:14 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thumperx View Post
I second DaFish's findings.

I have Velocity motorcars rear suspension links, and they really help keep everything planted in the rear. Since there's no rubber bushings at each of the links, steering input is increased. Having said that, yes, NVH is up a bit.

Additionally, I track my car and it was well worth the effort to change over these types of toe arms.
Thanks for giving your experience! But, can you be a lot more specific? What does it mean they keep everything planted? What exactly is the difference? Keeping in mind that we understand perfectly the theoretical benefit of replacing bushings with ball joints; I'm asking about what you felt. And what does it mean, steering input is increased? Steering accuracy and on-center feel are very important to me, but your description could mean so many different things... I know you're just trying to share your experience, I'm trying to get some rigor here.

If the people who have the arms could be specific about what exactly the difference was, without vague language, and what your test was, it would be 10X more helpful to us that don't have the part.

And thanks for the feedback on NVH, I haven't heard anyone mention that before.
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      11-26-2011, 08:14 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr_PharmD View Post
So if one is feeling the same but low on cash...would upgrading this without m3 bits be worth it?
I would do the M3 subframe bushings first.
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      11-26-2011, 08:49 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I would do the M3 subframe bushings first.
Why? It's hundreds cheaper to do the rear arm first and see if it solves the issue. If you do the subframe bushings you have to decide whether to do the m3 rear bar at the same time, and that's a big change to how the suspension works.

I would say to focus on specific problems you're having, and do the cheapest stuff first that addresses those problems. Tension struts (in front) and toe arms (in rear) are good candidates for directional stability and mechanical grip.

That said, it may well turn out that subframe bushings are necessary to get the result you want. It's not known, since no one's tried just installing the toe arm, without having done the subframe bushings beforehand.
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      11-27-2011, 02:11 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
Thanks for giving your experience! But, can you be a lot more specific? What does it mean they keep everything planted? What exactly is the difference? Keeping in mind that we understand perfectly the theoretical benefit of replacing bushings with ball joints; I'm asking about what you felt. And what does it mean, steering input is increased? Steering accuracy and on-center feel are very important to me, but your description could mean so many different things... I know you're just trying to share your experience, I'm trying to get some rigor here.
Quite simple, I think you've answered your own question. If you know "the theoretical benefit of replacing bushings with ball joints", then the outcome is (what you are looking for) "steering accuracy and on-center" feedback. It just that simple.

The "difference" is the spherical bearing eliminates slop and alignment changes that stock rubber bushings under load. Unlike DAFish's direction, my focus and direction was to supplement positive lateral input by changing three of links (rear guide arms, rear upper link, and rear toe arms) and at track geometry changes.

Without changing the M3 sub frame bushings, this link system will not cure the rear suspension wallow that most of us complain about. There's a drastic reduction of wallowing through moderate and sharp turns on comparative basis to a rubber bushing links. As mentioned here and other threads, I do highly recommend swapping the rear sub-frame bushings for the M3 ones first (or simultaneously) before any other suspension link upgrades.

More importantly having installed: M3 front end bits, sway bars, performance shocks, and performance tires all together contribute in how I want my car to behave. For me it wasn't just changing the rear toe links; rather, a total suspension package changes (with more upgrades to come) to meet a more "planted" feel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
Why? It's hundreds cheaper to do the rear arm first and see if it solves the issue. If you do the subframe bushings you have to decide whether to do the m3 rear bar at the same time, and that's a big change to how the suspension works.
True it's cost efficient to have the arms done first, but (retrospectively) I think it's best to have a solid and firm foundation accomplished first (if you can afford it). Then one can confidently build up from there. I should have changed mine bushing along with when changing the rear sway bar and shocks. Otherwise, you're chasing your tail like I have (in a couple months I will performing the swap).

Here are some pics to how the links look installed at the rear:



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Last edited by Thumperx; 11-27-2011 at 04:38 PM.
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      11-27-2011, 02:52 PM   #22
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Quote:
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Alpina do you feel what I described? Looking forward to hearing how you describe the benefit of the mod after track testing

I am not convinced the issue is 100% gone, but it certainly is 90% gone, much better and acceptable.
No, I do not have this problem right now. I'm rather looking for additional flexibility in geometry changes of the suspension, in addition to the Íhlins suspension that will go on my car. I have quite a few issues with the Bilstein suspension (see my review of that), and the lateral instability of the rear axle that I notice on the track may be exacerbated by the toe links.

They'll not go on my car before February, so it will be a while until I can test that out.

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