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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Are you guys somewhat worried about the "chip"?



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      06-19-2007, 10:31 AM   #1
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Are you guys somewhat worried about the "chip"?

This is not targeted towards any tuner per say. Just curious if you guys are worried about warranty being void if something does happen like a premature turbo failure which was the cause of running higher boost? And don't say BMW wont know because they will. I had my Audi chipped and the turbo gave at 2.5 yrs and Audi refused to replace it under warranty and I didn't really feel like taking them to court since I know they were right.

I'm currently chipped as well, but I had to REALLY REALLY talk myself out of getting the Procede. That chip just seems too good to be true at 2psi over stock. But hey, maybe in 2 yrs all you Procede guys will still be running smooth without problems and I will be banging my head against the wall for not having that extra 30hp and going with a slightly weaker boost chip. But then again, if the stock turbo is suppose to last 50k miles at 6-8psi I wonder how long it will last at 13.2-15 psi on Procede v1.45 or even more on V2. I'm going to install the turbo timer ASAP and I sure hope all you guys chipped get one to cool these girls down after running on 1Bar boost.

Again, this post is not meant to flame. I am only curious to what your precautions are with the route you took. I know for me, I was so close to ordering the Procede, but I really had to talk my self out of it due to bad past experience with my Audi. And maybe the 335 is just that much better than my old Audi. I had plans to get an exhaust, but now I think about it, what's the point. You guys with only the Procede will probably still walk me with my chip+exhaust. I am just really curious if Vishu is really this Genius tuner who everyone proclaim as GOD on here, or is he just over boosting (yes air/fuel mixture and some other stuff, but mainly boost)? I guess time will tell.

What troubles me is why would BMW pay their engineers and in house tuners millions of dollars to produce the "ultimate driving machine" just so they can detune a motor to 275wrhp when Vishnu himself can tune it to 379rwhp (Procded V2)? I mean detune it 25-35hp I can understand, but 104hp? Makes no sense to me, but that's just me. I'm just rambling on because I didn't have the balls to get the PRocede and I admire all of you who did. You guys got balls with your $50k car. Best of luck to you guys! And please update us on your experiences with the Procede down the road, I for one am very curious as to how all these chip war unfold.

Please don't turn this into a flame war. Everyone is proud of their mods, but lets try and have a civilized discussion here to inform the rest who haven't mod their cars yet. These cars are still very new so a lot of opinions are just speculations, but lets talk about them? Shiv, or any other tuners please shed some light as well if you have the time. Thnx!
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      06-19-2007, 10:41 AM   #2
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No, I don't worry. If people are even remotely concerned about warranty, don't do it. It's not the most important decision a person has to make in their life and all the attention a warranty gets here is absurd. The 335i is a perfectly fine car in its own merit. A person that wishes to modify a car has to understand the consequences of their actions.

Why detune an engine so much? Don't want to compete against the new M3 and concerns of component longevity - see warranty. Automobile manufacturers can't spend too much time worrying abut aftermarket modifcations for the purpose of it eating sales of their higher-line products. Most people don't modify their vehicles. Many people often find modification as lame and the cheap way out of being able to afford the crown jewel of a particular marque. With this fact, it's easy for BMW to detune the engine to allow enough of a performance advantage for the M3 to help justify its selling price.

After all, you could always spend 10k on a used Mustang and some mods and have it run a 1/4-mile quicker than an M3, but at the end of the day you are still stuck with the Mustang. Most people buy the car for what it is, not what it can be.
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      06-19-2007, 10:53 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StylePoints View Post
This is not targeted towards any tuner per say. Just curious if you guys are worried about warranty being void if something does happen like a premature turbo failure which was the cause of running higher boost? And don't say BMW wont know because they will. I had my Audi chipped and the turbo gave at 2.5 yrs and Audi refused to replace it under warranty and I didn't really feel like taking them to court since I know they were right.

I'm currently chipped as well, but I had to REALLY REALLY talk myself out of getting the Procede. That chip just seems too good to be true at 2psi over stock. But hey, maybe in 2 yrs all you Procede guys will still be running smooth without problems and I will be banging my head against the wall for not having that extra 30hp and going with a slightly weaker boost chip. But then again, if the stock turbo is suppose to last 50k miles at 6-8psi I wonder how long it will last at 13.2-15 psi on Procede v1.45 or even more on V2. I'm going to install the turbo timer ASAP and I sure hope all you guys chipped get one to cool these girls down after running on 1Bar boost.

Again, this post is not meant to flame. I am only curious to what your precautions are with the route you took. I know for me, I was so close to ordering the Procede, but I really had to talk my self out of it due to bad past experience with my Audi. And maybe the 335 is just that much better than my old Audi. I had plans to get an exhaust, but now I think about it, what's the point. You guys with only the Procede will probably still walk me with my chip+exhaust. I am just really curious if Vishu is really this Genius tuner who everyone proclaim as GOD on here, or is he just over boosting (yes air/fuel mixture and some other stuff, but mainly boost)? I guess time will tell.

What troubles me is why would BMW pay their engineers and in house tuners millions of dollars to produce the "ultimate driving machine" just so they can detune a motor to 275wrhp when Vishnu himself can tune it to 379rwhp (Procded V2)? I mean detune it 25-35hp I can understand, but 104hp? Makes no sense to me, but that's just me. I'm just rambling on because I didn't have the balls to get the PRocede and I admire all of you who did. You guys got balls with your $50k car. Best of luck to you guys! And please update us on your experiences with the Procede down the road, I for one am very curious as to how all these chip war unfold.

Please don't turn this into a flame war. Everyone is proud of their mods, but lets try and have a civilized discussion here to inform the rest who haven't mod their cars yet. These cars are still very new so a lot of opinions are just speculations, but lets talk about them? Shiv, or any other tuners please shed some light as well if you have the time. Thnx!
Well, I'd say when it comes to reliability a lot depends on the behavior of your right foot. I met the forum a couple of months ago and recognized that quite some members beat the car like crazy to get the best quarter mile results. Here in Europe nearly nobody does. I personally like the low-end torque and to have plenty of power available. In fact, I'll use this power once or twice a month. I also respect the engine's operating temperatures and change oil more frequently than BMW recommends. Behaving like this I never had any engine / tuning related issue so I feel very comfortable with the PROcede. The results of the 12h endurance race are also one significant factor that I can trust the PROcede according to my needs.

My $0.02

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      06-19-2007, 10:54 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by Nyulak View Post
Why detune an engine so much? Don't want to compete against the new M3 and concerns of component longevity - see warranty. Automobile manufacturers can't spend too much time worrying abut aftermarket modifcations for the purpose of it eating sales of their higher-line products. Most people don't modify their vehicles. Many people often find modification as lame and the cheap way out of being able to afford the crown jewel of a particular marque. With this fact, it's easy for BMW to detune the engine to allow enough of a performance advantage for the M3 to help justify its selling price.
But if this motor is SO strong why even detune it and make it a 335? Why even go NA v8 for the new M3 (which most likely is a maxed out motor)? They could have easily already released an I6-TT M3 thats putting down 400hp with more upgrade potentials? I know car manufactures all detune for longevity but 100 HP is just way too detuned for me to believe. And when you speak of longevity, yes we'd all like for our cars to last a long time. For those of us who mod (I am one), we know our consequences for performance mods. But there is also a threshold as to what is acceptable. I'm sure someone can tune a map (fuel/air mixture/boost) to 450 with some race gas and 25psi on stock components which will give your stock components a 2 month longevity (if that), but is that reasonable for you? There is a line to what is safe, and that's what I would like to know. Most chip companies are at 315-320 rwhp. Vishnu is genius to be tunning it to 379 on v2. I'm really impressed, so far and it seems like a lot of ppl here are. But in 6 months if 3-4 Procede cars blow turbos/pistons and BMW voids those claims then what? Are you guys going to cry foul? Not just vishnu, there are many chip tuners. I am only using Vishnu as an example because their #'s are just so damn amazing.
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      06-19-2007, 10:59 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter View Post
Well, I'd say when it comes to reliability a lot depends on the behavior of your right foot. I met the forum a couple of months ago and recognized that quite some members beat the car like crazy to get the best quarter mile results. Here in Europe nearly nobody does. I personally like the low-end torque and to have plenty of power available. In fact, I'll use this power once or twice a month. I also respect the engine's operating temperatures and change oil more frequently than BMW recommends. Behaving like this I never had any engine / tuning related issue so I feel very comfortable with the PROcede. The results of the 12h endurance race are also one significant factor that I can trust the tune according to my needs.

My $0.02

Cheers
Eugen
>>> I'm glad you are enjoying your Procede. I bet you got the silliest grin on your face when you smash that pedal! I know I do, so I can only imagine your grin twice as big as mine since the Procede is like chipping my chipped car. Those posted dynos graphs are just ridiculously amazing.
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      06-19-2007, 11:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
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>>> I'm glad you are enjoying your Procede. I bet you got the silliest grin on your face when you smash that pedal! I know I do, so I can only imagine your grin twice as big as mine since the Procede is like chipping my chipped car. Those posted dynos graphs are just ridiculously amazing.


Doube your grin for $1.365 as well. It's really worth the price. I have been very sceptical related to piggyback's, the PROcede is my first engine tuning attempt using this technology. I'm very impressed and think this is the way to go.

Cheers
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      06-19-2007, 11:17 AM   #7
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Interceptors are good until the ecu is cracked and flashing takes off, at which time the resale of the piggybacks drop to basically nothing. I have a SMART Xede for my Evo laying around that thank goodness I didn't buy new (would have been $1200+) and now I'd have a hard time selling it for $150.
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      06-19-2007, 11:17 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StylePoints View Post
But if this motor is SO strong why even detune it and make it a 335? Why even go NA v8 for the new M3 (which most likely is a maxed out motor)? They could have easily already released an I6-TT M3 thats putting down 400hp with more upgrade potentials? I know car manufactures all detune for longevity but 100 HP is just way too detuned for me to believe. And when you speak of longevity, yes we'd all like for our cars to last a long time. For those of us who mod (I am one), we know our consequences for performance mods. But there is also a threshold as to what is acceptable. I'm sure someone can tune a map (fuel/air mixture/boost) to 450 with some race gas and 25psi on stock components which will give your stock components a 2 month longevity (if that), but is that reasonable for you? There is a line to what is safe, and that's what I would like to know. Most chip companies are at 315-320 rwhp. Vishnu is genius to be tunning it to 379 on v2. I'm really impressed, so far and it seems like a lot of ppl here are. But in 6 months if 3-4 Procede cars blow turbos/pistons and BMW voids those claims then what? Are you guys going to cry foul? Not just vishnu, there are many chip tuners. I am only using Vishnu as an example because their #'s are just so damn amazing.

As great as the N54 is, turbo-charging does not match the M Divisions design philosophy. M engines are about searing acceleration and inertia free revs---which makes for vivid acceleration.

They like to make horsepower through light weight pistons, valves, and breathing...exotic stuff. As if turbo-charging is beneath them.

Or maybe they saw that Merc/AMG (6.2 L or "XX63" cars) and Audi (RS4/RS8) have moved towards high-revving larger capacity V8s and they followed.

Either way. It's a good time to be alive
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      06-19-2007, 11:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StylePoints View Post
But if this motor is SO strong why even detune it and make it a 335? Why even go NA v8 for the new M3 (which most likely is a maxed out motor)? They could have easily already released an I6-TT M3 thats putting down 400hp with more upgrade potentials?
Simply put, to the average consummer, a V8 markets better than an inline 6. It is the same reason that the STI is a 2.5L and the evo is only a 2.0L. The average man walks up to the dealership and says, "oh wow, that is a 2.5L, that means it is, or can be made much faster." In reality, the evo IX is faster, and more power can be made with it. As silly as it sounds, displacement sells cars.

In regards to your concerns, I think it is somewhat natural to feel the way you do at this point in the game. What I can tell you is that there is always a portion of the community that feels the same way you do in the beginning. People do not want to believe that these power gains can be had. However, time and time again we have shown in different communities what can be reasonably done with a car, and if we look at the numbers, it makes sense. Using WHP, our new v2.0 is making about 125WHP per litre. If you compare this to our most popular evo package, we are making around 150whp per litre. With that said, we also have many evos making around 225whp per litre, which are still very reliable. It is extremely rare that boost and power will cause significant problems, on the other hand, bad tunes almost always will.
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      06-19-2007, 12:06 PM   #10
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I'm sure it isn't all about boost.

With Vanos and Valvetronic you can do some really cool things like altering the lobe separation angle, advancing and retarding timing on both camshafts, and lift all the through out the operating range of the motor. It's about as close as you can get to having the ideal cam at all rpms until they come out with electronically controlled valvetrains.

So, at low RPM you can advance both cams to spool the turbos quickly and make good torque. Then up top you can retard them and make good power. When they put Mivec on the intake cam of the Evo IX it made a big difference in the width of the power band. These cars are way beyond that stage.

These cars also have direct injection. Which adds yet another area of tunability.

Regarding the turbos, these are Mitsubishi turbos which are some of the best built turbos out there. I would be willing to bet they are better pieces than the KKK turbos on your Audi. That is just my opinion with no facts to present though. All we need is variable geometry like Porsche has now.

Have you ever considered that maybe some tuners leave some on the table to make the gains from products they will be releasing later look more impressive? IE: Our catback exhaust make 45 horsepower. You will need to retune the car from our stage1 tune for this.

Bottom line is if you are worried about a warranty leave the car alone though.

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      06-19-2007, 12:08 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dustin@Vishnu View Post
It is extremely rare that boost and power will cause significant problems, on the other hand,bad tunes almost always will.
AMEN...
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      06-19-2007, 12:12 PM   #12
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Stylepoints, so you are saying you chipped your car but didnt go with Vishnu? That seems pretty lame considering their time, effort, research and development. All these piggybacks and chips will give you more power, reason why I went with Vishnu is because i trust their research and development. Hell if AA or TT made more power then the Procede, I'm pretty sure I still would have gone with the Procede. Look at their credibility and the time and effort they put into keeping us updated with whats really going on.
By the way, what company did you go with?
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      06-19-2007, 12:23 PM   #13
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But BMW knowing that the tuning potential is so high for this engine, why didn't they detune then adjust the power to be around the current range such that it would not be worth while to tune for more performance. (Like what they did with the N52 325/330.)
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      06-19-2007, 12:32 PM   #14
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all this talk is killing me

I am going to order a procede today...Yes I do care about the warranty (especially since it's lease)

I think you just have to bite the bullet and do it...or don't. If you want the power it's a risk you have to take.

Thing thing that I feel I have to fall back on is that you really need to have faith in the company who builds your car. You own a machine that is built by a company with one of the finest engineering reputations in the world. You have to have faith in what they do...Yes a tuner may push the limits, but you have to believe that finely crafted automobile can handle the increase.

I was on the fence for about 2 weeks and am going to do it today...providing they call me back (left a message 8am EST).

If something happens to the car and god forbid the warranty does get voided....so be it. My risk...my fault.



ps...someone from vishnu please call me back....

Derek
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      06-19-2007, 01:03 PM   #15
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Overall I have to agree with StylePoints. So far, at least, I simply can't justify risking a blown engine in this $50K car when the OEM performance is already amazing.

I too am impressed with Vishnu's results, but I don't agree with Dustin's simplistic statement that "It is extremely rare that boost and power will cause significant problems ...". All parts have their maximum stress limits above which they will (eventually) fail. Increased boost is increased stress on the turbo and drivetrain. Maybe the N54 is overengineered to the point that reasonable boost increase will never produce a significantly higher failure rate, but the fact is, none of us know that now.

My last car was a Saab 9-3 Aero in which I installed a BSR Stage 1 kit taking HP from 203 to 247. I drove the car for 3.5 years without a problem, and one month before I sold it the turbo failed (45K miles). I have little doubt that the early failure was due to the boost increase. The dealer never detected the ECU upgrade and replaced the turbo under warranty. In this case, I was lucky and the performance from the upgrade was worth the cost.

By comparison, with the 335 having the best OEM performance of any car I've owned and its cost so high, a voided warranty just isn't worth the risk.

Maybe I'll change my mind after a year or so of feedback from Procede owners. At the boost level Vishnu is probably using for v2, any significant increase in engine failures should start surfacing within that time.
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      06-19-2007, 01:30 PM   #16
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Those with concerns are always saying they don't want to do damage to a $50K car. Did eveybody's 335 cost $50K but mine ?
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      06-19-2007, 01:31 PM   #17
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Does any one know full Price for 335i OEM Turbos ?
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      06-19-2007, 01:32 PM   #18
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Those with concerns are always saying they don't want to do damage to a $50K car. Did eveybody's 335 cost $50K but mine ?
Nope.
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      06-19-2007, 01:38 PM   #19
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It's not that they detuned the motor x amount of HP. Every engine has the capacity to make more HP. Those with forced induction have even more potential. If every engine was built to its max potential, then you'd lose a lot of reliability and longevity. You'd have more broken parts, more failures as you pushed the envelope to make more power.

The 335i was built to suit where BMW thought they should be in there market segment. It wouldn't make much sense for them to sell a 400 hp 335i. Then to make the M competitive, it would have to make x amount more. I am sure we would all like it, but if they are competitive in there market, then no need to push the engines limits. No manufacturer can control what happens in the after market. I am sure they knew it was inevitable that the 335i would be tuned.

I don't think the PROcede, or other tuners, are going to necessarily decrease the life of the 335i, but more so ones driving habits will. The harder you drive the vehicle, the higher the propensity of failure.
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      06-19-2007, 01:42 PM   #20
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Those with concerns are always saying they don't want to do damage to a $50K car. Did eveybody's 335 cost $50K but mine ?
My car has been nearly $80K. I have no concern, that I will break it. I drive the car, not the PROcede. And the car performs better with the PROcede.
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      06-19-2007, 02:28 PM   #21
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Quote:
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Those with concerns are always saying they don't want to do damage to a $50K car. Did eveybody's 335 cost $50K but mine ?
What options do you got on it?! That's probably what's driving up the price for everyone... all those irresistible options
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      06-19-2007, 02:32 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by eugen.niederreiter View Post
Well, I'd say when it comes to reliability a lot depends on the behavior of your right foot. I met the forum a couple of months ago and recognized that quite some members beat the car like crazy to get the best quarter mile results. Here in Europe nearly nobody does. I personally like the low-end torque and to have plenty of power available. In fact, I'll use this power once or twice a month. I also respect the engine's operating temperatures and change oil more frequently than BMW recommends. Behaving like this I never had any engine / tuning related issue so I feel very comfortable with the PROcede. The results of the 12h endurance race are also one significant factor that I can trust the PROcede according to my needs.

My $0.02

Cheers
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I agree. Just because an extra 100hp is there, doesn't mean it's always being used. Beating on a stock car every day could be much rougher on the drivetrain than a sedate driver with a tune that takes the car to the track a few times a year.
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