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      11-30-2011, 12:05 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
How do you know those are the spring rates for the BMW performance springs?
Under Suspension section, you'll find Mr.5's listing of springs types and rates:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235797

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Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
Ya, they are custom valved Koni's by Dinan. The ride in bumper to bumper traffic going over compression joints is harsh. On the highway, going 120 kms/hour is ok. CVC was saying the same thing and he was on ZSP springs so we are ruling out the springs and blaming the shocks.
Ok, I get it.
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      11-30-2011, 12:58 AM   #46
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Ya, they are custom valved Koni's by Dinan. The ride in bumper to bumper traffic going over compression joints is harsh. On the highway, going 120 kms/hour is ok. CVC was saying the same thing and he was on ZSP springs so we are ruling out the springs and blaming the shocks.

Because we have all of the M3 bits on, this gets transferred to the cabin.

Still, then handling is superbly improved - especially high speed. Cornering feel is great now.
Maybe Dinan valved it with too much compression damping?
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      11-30-2011, 02:01 AM   #47
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Ok Luckylu, what you're asking me is to describe something that has way too many variables or event dependent. But I did encounter an experience as I was coming home this evening.

The scenario is on a high-speed transition ramp from one highway (85N) to another highway (280N). The road was banking towards the left, two vehicles in front of me and positioned in each of the two lanes. There was about a 100 ft. of spacing between the two.

I'm pushing 70-75, jumped to 90 into the banking bend left, splitting the two into the turn, passing them both . As I turned into banked road, I transferring weight on to the front right smoothly, turning, the rear felt solid and connected even with a surface transition (or bump) that stepped out the rear slightly. Via seat-of-the-pants and steering feedback, the unsettled moment still gave me a steering response that included sharpness and confidence about the rear end.

Now, I feel a fair amount of percentage of how the rear end performed and conveyed was due to the VM linkages. Hope may explain to your question about an "experience behind the steering wheel on the one hand, and the elimination of slop behind the rear wheel".
That's a great description. I come back from Los Gatos via that same route. Generally I feel a similar sense of confidence on banked transitions, and combinations of unevenness with crossing roadway seams with banking. The car behaves in a controlled way and sometimes I even get some torquing from the steering wheel that communicates what's happening underneath.

So I would say that in cases of "events" like the one you described, my car behaves well.

The problems I detect in my car are: slight lack of accuracy in steering; lack of feel, or connectedness, going straightahead; and very slight wandering on bumpy freeways.

Going straight ahead on a freeway, such as 280N from De Anza on, the steering wheel does not writhe and wiggle to communicate to me. There are events where it happens, but usually the steering is dead.

On 101, which in my area is usually flat and smooth, steering is sharp and accurate. But on 280, which as you know is banked and filled with interesting bumps, the path the car takes wanders a slight amount.

The weirdest and most annoying path accuracy problem is when I'm in a slight turn, and I can feel the step change in G force as the car decides on its own to tighten the turn ever so slightly.

I am almost certain that compliance in the rear end is a contributor to all of these defects. But if changing the toe arm fixes them completely I will be pleasantly surprised. I fear that some of the ickiness is endemic to the front suspension design, and the design of the steering rack.

I should say that in spite of these lingering problems, the car is so much more enjoyable to drive after the Bilsteins went in. The defects remain but the car is good enough now that I'm less annoyed with them.
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      11-30-2011, 11:48 AM   #48
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[quote=Thumperx;10892401]Under Suspension section, you'll find Mr.5's listing of springs types and rates:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=235797

Those rates aren't published by BMW just estimated by an enthusiast. I haven't seen anyone actually measure the spring rates of the BMW PS for the 335i and that's why I asked the question..
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      11-30-2011, 01:11 PM   #49
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I am almost certain that compliance in the rear end is a contributor to all of these defects. But if changing the toe arm fixes them completely I will be pleasantly surprised.
Well for $289 from HPA, you can see if works or not for you. It's not too expensive to find out the pros and cons.

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I should say that in spite of these lingering problems, the car is so much more enjoyable to drive after the Bilsteins went in. The defects remain but the car is good enough now that I'm less annoyed with them.
Glad to hear it, and I agree with you about it being more enjoyable to drive. There's also way more room to make improvements.
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      11-30-2011, 03:57 PM   #50
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Well for $289 from HPA, you can see if works or not for you. It's not too expensive to find out the pros and cons.
$289 for one part is the wrong way to look at the question. You can't look at parts in isolation any more than you can decide on bond measures in isolation. You have to think of your priorities and what problems you're trying to solve. Remember the story of one forum member, who was trying to tackle I think wheel hop or lateral wiggling in the rear of his 335i. He got an LSD. He got rear subframe bushings. He got the guide arm and the upper arm. Problem wasn't addressed! Finally he put the VM toe arm in and it solved his problem.

I say this because it is a very common cognitive error to look at each mini-decision in isolation as if it exists alone. But we're buying this stuff to solve problems and we've spent thousands of dollars not hundreds. As much as I'd like to find out the pros and cons in the interests of Science, that is not the end goal. The end goal is to fix or mostly fix particular problems I experience.

As a thought experiment: try iterating your recipe on every part in the car.

That said I will probably end up buying the RE arm, as soon as I learn how its ball joints compare in design and function to the ball joints in the M3 factory toe arm. I corresponded with Ben Liaw but he is cagey.

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Glad to hear it, and I agree with you about it being more enjoyable to drive. There's also way more room to make improvements.
True. I was happy with my unmodded E36. I'm really just trying to get back to par.
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      12-01-2011, 12:25 AM   #51
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$289 for one part is the wrong way to look at the question. You can't look at parts in isolation any more than you can decide on bond measures in isolation. You have to think of your priorities and what problems you're trying to solve.
Actually, I'm only going along what you've said and logic in post #20, "Why? It's hundreds cheaper to do the rear arm first and see if it solves the issue". (Since you used "you" and "your" throughout in the previous response.) Hmm, I recall that I'm not the one having a suspension problem to solve. I thought I'd already solve them and only reported my findings. Incidentally I don't recall (more or less) anyone in this thread of having a real issues, only reporting.

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I would say to focus on specific problems you're having, and do the cheapest stuff first that addresses those problems. Tension struts (in front) and toe arms (in rear) are good candidates for directional stability and mechanical grip."
Again I'm not having any suspension issues, actually the opposite. Not sure why you've mention this. In the above statement, if toe arms are a "good candidate for directional stability and mechanical grip", then try them out as I suggested. Once done, you can have your own personal experience whether the toe links work for you or not. Keep this in mind, both OEM arms and VM or RE links perform the same task, but it's the degree of feedback performance that separates them in directional stability and mechanical grip.

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Remember the story of one forum member, who was trying to tackle I think wheel hop or lateral wiggling in the rear of his 335i. He got an LSD. He got rear subframe bushings. He got the guide arm and the upper arm. Problem wasn't addressed! Finally he put the VM toe arm in and it solved his problem.
I wouldn't assume that I'm up to speed with every subject mentioned in this forum. Nevertheless, I'm not familiar with this situation. It sounds like through the forum member's own experimental process, he got himself from being upside down. I have VMs, and I'm happy with my decision. Regardless, I do understand and agree with the spirit of your statement though. Again, it goes along what I've mentioned before.

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As a thought experiment: try iterating your recipe on every part in the car.
Huh, I though that's what I've been doing all along.

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Originally Posted by luckyu View Post
That said I will probably end up buying the RE arm, as soon as I learn how its ball joints compare in design and function to the ball joints in the M3 factory toe arm.
Whew, go for it.
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      12-01-2011, 01:15 PM   #52
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Actually, I'm only going along what you've said and logic in post #20, "Why? It's hundreds cheaper to do the rear arm first and see if it solves the issue".
But it's not the same logic, Thumperx. The logic that tells me to buy the cheaper part before the more expensive part, does not tell me to buy the cheaper part. One is a sequencing decision; the other is a purchasing decision.

I hope you won't continue exhorting people to buy products after they've expressed interest in them.
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      12-02-2011, 03:16 AM   #53
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With the VM arms major deflections are removed.

With oem arms, not only the bushings have large deflections, the arm itself is made to bow under load as well, not good for getting the power to the ground.
Why does BMW engineer the toe arms to have so much deflection?
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      12-02-2011, 03:43 AM   #54
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Why does BMW engineer the toe arms to have so much deflection?
Because unlike on the M3, the 335i suspension was designed to offer decent comfort with RunFlat tyres. So as RFT are "harder" than conventional tyres, BMW softened the bushings to prevent an overly harsh ride.
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      12-02-2011, 09:56 AM   #55
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Because unlike on the M3, the 335i suspension was designed to offer decent comfort with RunFlat tyres. So as RFT are "harder" than conventional tyres, BMW softened the bushings to prevent an overly harsh ride.
Bingo ! I couldn' have said this better.

Here is my experience.

1) replaced the RFTs with non-RFTs - handling went for a crapper (front tires rolled over on hard cornering), ride was beautiful - using Dinan Stage 2 tune (still in warranty) - not happy
2) Change suspension - Dinan Stage 3 (springs shocks, front sway, camber plates), added front M3 tension and wishbones - handling very firm, much improved handling and performance - change tune to Procede, catless DPs, AR FMIC, DCI - somewhat happy.
3) change rear suspension - add subframe, M3 arms (upper and lower), rear sway, LSD - MUCH better handling, ride still f'n firm, add: Meth and Forged DVs - almost happy (happy with power)
4) add rear toe arms - car tracks straight where I point it - 90% at least, change to Procede 11-1 maps (power great) -HAPPY with whole package.

The point being the entire car was designed for very firm side wall tires and you can't just change those - you have to redesign things to match them like the M3 has.

It would be interesting to see how the M3 would drive with 480 ft/lbs of torque to contend with.
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      12-02-2011, 10:05 AM   #56
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Bingo ! I couldn' have said this better.

Here is my experience.

1) replaced the RFTs with non-RFTs - handling went for a crapper (front tires rolled over on hard cornering), ride was beautiful - using Dinan Stage 2 tune (still in warranty) - not happy
2) Change suspension - Dinan Stage 3 (springs shocks, front sway, camber plates), added front M3 tension and wishbones - handling very firm, much improved handling and performance - change tune to Procede, catless DPs, AR FMIC, DCI - somewhat happy.
3) change rear suspension - add subframe, M3 arms (upper and lower), rear sway, LSD - MUCH better handling, ride still f'n firm, add: Meth and Forged DVs - almost happy (happy with power)
4) add rear toe arms - car tracks straight where I point it - 90% at least, change to Procede 11-1 maps (power great) -HAPPY with whole package.

The point being the entire car was designed for very firm side wall tires and you can't just change those - you have to redesign things to match them like the M3 has.
I'm now at point 3) with my car (- meth), overall quite happy, and Procede Rev 2.5 upgrade and the Toe Arms are in the mail

Unfortunately it won't be until January that I'll have the toe links installed. But user impressions so far seem promising!
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      12-02-2011, 11:48 AM   #57
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Unfortunately it won't be until January that I'll have the toe links installed. But user impressions so far seem promising!
Cool. Once done, give us your thoughts.
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      12-02-2011, 12:05 PM   #58
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      12-02-2011, 01:13 PM   #59
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Quote:
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Because unlike on the M3, the 335i suspension was designed to offer decent comfort with RunFlat tyres. So as RFT are "harder" than conventional tyres, BMW softened the bushings to prevent an overly harsh ride.
I agree that the rubber bushings are soft at least partly b/c of RFT (if there is some other reason I don't know what it is)... But, the arms themselves deflecting?
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      12-02-2011, 01:58 PM   #60
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I agree that the rubber bushings are soft at least partly b/c of RFT (if there is some other reason I don't know what it is)... But, the arms themselves deflecting?
I'm guessing to promote understeer. A softer sprung rear should provide more grip.
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      12-02-2011, 05:21 PM   #61
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I agree that the rubber bushings are soft at least partly b/c of RFT (if there is some other reason I don't know what it is)... But, the arms themselves deflecting?
I don't think the arms themselves are deflecting. Only the bushings. These suspension arms have to withstand shocks from driving over potholes etc. So I can't imagine they would "bend" under normal load conditions
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      12-02-2011, 05:53 PM   #62
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I don't think the arms themselves are deflecting. Only the bushings. These suspension arms have to withstand shocks from driving over potholes etc. So I can't imagine they would "bend" under normal load conditions
Does seem weird doesn't it. But Harold says the arms do bend under load. He's quoted by CVC in a post above.
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      12-04-2011, 10:15 AM   #63
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Does seem weird doesn't it. But Harold says the arms do bend under load. He's quoted by CVC in a post above.
well, "something" was "flexing" (I think is a better word).

That is 90% gone now.

By the way. I would only do these arms if you are experiencing torque steer or indirection on hard braking. If you don't, then I would skip the cost.
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      12-04-2011, 01:08 PM   #64
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Quote:
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Does seem weird doesn't it. But Harold says the arms do bend under load. He's quoted by CVC in a post above.
The oem I was reffering to was the guide rods.
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      12-04-2011, 01:22 PM   #65
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Wow! Great thread...looking to do everything mentioned here, as well.

Why Rogue? What happened to the other manufacturer? I must have missed it.
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      12-04-2011, 04:04 PM   #66
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Location: San Francisco Bay Area, California

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Quote:
Originally Posted by flip4335 View Post


Wow! Great thread...looking to do everything mentioned here, as well.

Why Rogue? What happened to the other manufacturer? I must have missed it.
You mean Velocity Motorcars? They have been out of toe arms for a while. I emailed them a week or two ago and never heard back. Don't know what's up with them.

Megan Racing also makes a toe arm for E9x.
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2007 328i ZSP. M3 suspension: custom valved Bilstein shocks, Hyperco race springs, M3 lower control arms front and rear, M3 sway bars, and M3 subframe bushings. E46 front guide supports. Euro tail lights.
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