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      12-03-2011, 09:12 PM   #155
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^^ It looks mean!!!
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      12-04-2011, 09:59 AM   #156
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The Subaru is mechanically (almost) identical to the Toyota – the only difference of note between the two cars is that the BRZ gets marginally stiffer suspension settings. But, although the two brands are officially happy to split the corporate acclaim, it’s worth nothing that the project was almost entirely engineered by Subaru, and both cars will be produced in its factory.
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Suspension has been derived from the Impreza, but cleverly reworked with the lower arms of the front McPherson struts turned back-to-front to make the minimal front overhang possible. Twin wishbones at the back are pure Impreza, but the BRZ gets a larger differential to cater for the fact it's rear-drive only.
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Versus the Toyota, though? That’s a tricky one – design is always subjective, but we reckon the GT 86 looks slightly better. But with Subaru UK anticipating selling around 1000 cars a year – versus 4000 for the Toyota – the BRZ is always going to be a more exclusive option.
Driven: Subaru BRZ
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      12-04-2011, 08:23 PM   #157
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Yes! However, the 911 costs a fortune, it's not the most spacious, doesn't give the best ride compliance as it is optimized for speed, because it has a very low body it's not the easiest to get in or out, not the most quiet car either and rough surfaces do tend to up the noise volume and, finally, to fully appreciate all the available power you really need a track, as long as you know what you are doing, because the speed reserves are VERY high and the handling can be VERY challenging!
I still think this applies to a gigantic number of cars that aren't the 911. lol
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      12-04-2011, 09:06 PM   #158
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I still think this applies to a gigantic number of cars that aren't the 911. lol
Tell me one that pretends to have 4 seats...
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      12-04-2011, 09:38 PM   #159
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Tell me one that pretends to have 4 seats...
Off the top of my head, and only including cars on sale today: the DB9, TT-RS, XK-R, GT-R, and a host of two-door AMGs. All of them are compromised cars with sporting pretenses and mediocre ride comfort, and all possess the torture chair seats (cough, shelves) in the back. Take away the 2+2 requirement and that list blows up four or five-fold when you think of all the compromised sports cars on the market.
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      12-04-2011, 10:31 PM   #160
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Off the top of my head, and only including cars on sale today: the DB9, TT-RS, XK-R, GT-R, and a host of two-door AMGs. All of them are compromised cars with sporting pretenses and mediocre ride comfort, and all possess the torture chair seats (cough, shelves) in the back. Take away the 2+2 requirement and that list blows up even more when you think of all the compromised sports cars on the market.
DB9, XK-R and AMGs are all GT cars therefore much more comfortables than the 911 which is much more track-focused (at least was until the 991).

As for the TT-RS and the GT-R even kids can drive them fast. Don't see old guys driving them anyway.

The 2+2 requirement is only there to highlight the fact that in a 911 the engine is behind the rear axle (though not so much so nowadays) and from an engineering point of view the only valid reason I can see for that would be to make room for back seats where, ironically, it even fails to accomplish and all at the loss of dynamics - more difficult to drive fast than its rivals.
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      12-04-2011, 11:07 PM   #161
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DB9, XK-R and AMGs are all GT cars therefore much more comfortables than the 911 which is much more track-focused (at least was until the 991).

As for the TT-RS and the GT-R even kids can drive them fast. Don't see old guys driving them anyway.

The 2+2 requirement is only there to highlight the fact that in a 911 the engine is behind the rear axle (though not so much so nowadays) and from an engineering point of view the only valid reason I can see for that would be to make room for back seats where, ironically, it even fails to accomplish and all at the loss of dynamics - more difficult to drive fast than its rivals.
This is pretty much going off topic from what I was getting at in the first place, which is that you posted that you always wonder why someone driving a Porsche (sports car) would need 300+ hp. I just see a pattern with you taking digs at Porsche and I'm wondering why you keep isolating that brand.
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      12-05-2011, 06:01 AM   #162
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This is pretty much going off topic from what I was getting at in the first place, which is that you posted that you always wonder why someone driving a Porsche (sports car) would need 300+ hp. I just see a pattern with you taking digs at Porsche and I'm wondering why you keep isolating that brand.
Sure you are smarter than that... where I want to get at is very simple:

What people value in a car with sporting pretenses most of the times has nothing to do how fun and how controllable the car can be - which is the main trait of this Toyobaru and what a sports car should be all about - but it's the image that can be projected to others while cruising that matters instead - which is the main reason why they (old guys) buy a 911. DB9, XK-R and AMGs all are much better options for cruising than a 911, though.


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GT 86 development engineer Yoshi Sasaki says the GT 86 is for those who are bored with cars that are too powerful with their turbo engines, have too much grip with their huge tyres and four-wheel drive, cost too much and don't let the driver do enough. 'A fun car,' he says, 'is a car that you control.'
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      12-05-2011, 10:00 AM   #163
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Jeez, not everyone buying a 911 is an idiot. Many buy them because they are a great balance of handling, reasonable performance and comfort. For the same money, they could have bought any number of faster or better handling cars, but where the 911 really shines is that it provides a balance between handling, acceleration and comfort that is relatively peerless within it's competitors.

The BRZ/86 will not be peerless among it's direct competitors. The next gen Miata could clean it's clock, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe while heavy and a little under engineered will appeal to many of the same buyers and of course a Mustang GT is much faster and not a slouch at handling either.

I like this car, but any sort of comparison to a 911 of any generation is just silly, Porsche has had that car right from the beginning and has polished it for over 45 years and your attempt at slighting the 991 by saying it won't be as track oriented as the previous cars apparently missed early N'Ring times that say anything but.
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      12-05-2011, 02:13 PM   #164
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Jeez, not everyone buying a 911 is an idiot.
Of course not! I was referring to those who use it for cruising only.


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For the same money, they could have bought any number of faster or better handling cars, but where the 911 really shines is that it provides a balance between handling, acceleration and comfort that is relatively peerless within it's competitors.
Yes, the 911 is lighter than the most of its competitors, that's a big advantage I reckon... but I don't think it was made for 'cruising'.

What makes it peerless though is its motor racing and hollywood starring roles heritage.


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I like this car, but any sort of comparison to a 911 of any generation is just silly, Porsche has had that car right from the beginning and has polished it for over 45 years and your attempt at slighting the 991 by saying it won't be as track oriented as the previous cars apparently missed early N'Ring times that say anything but.
You should have been seated inside of one... it looks and feels like the Panamera. However, it still manages to be lighter than the 997 despite of being larger and bigger... then again that is definitely good!

The comparison to a 911 has the sole purpose of focusing on what a sports car should be all about (without electronic 'nannies' or 'gadgetry') - in the following order:

1. Handling........... (911 - far from the best)
2. Acceleration...... (911 - among the best)
3. Practicality....... (911 - among the best)
4. Price ............... (911 - far from the best)


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The BRZ/86 will not be peerless among it's direct competitors. The next gen Miata could clean it's clock, the Hyundai Genesis Coupe while heavy and a little under engineered will appeal to many of the same buyers and of course a Mustang GT is much faster and not a slouch at handling either.
You are wrong! Using your own words I can definitely say that there's no better balance between handling, acceleration, comfort and - I shall add - PRICE like in this Toyobaru.
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      12-05-2011, 02:29 PM   #165
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BTW, forget about the new Miata :



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      12-05-2011, 03:00 PM   #166
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1. Handling........... (911 - far from the best)
What? Far from the best? If they are "far from the best" at handling, who is "far better"?

Is it Ferrari? Aston? Corvette? ///M? Because those guys lose a lot to "far from the best" Porsches.





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      12-05-2011, 03:01 PM   #167
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BTW, forget about the new Miata :

No thanks. That takes what's already ugly and makes it worse. Seriously, the existing racing heritage of the Miata makes it a much more appealing car to me than the coupe BRZ/86 and the convertible will get heavier and less agile.

I'd strongly consider a current Miata over this and if the next Miata actually comes close to their target weight of 2k pounds, even with 125-140 hp, it would be the superior car.

It's cool that you're this deep into the cool aid, and I've been this way about other cars (Elise/Exige and various Miatae) but I'm not seeing this as something particularly special.
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      12-05-2011, 03:02 PM   #168
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What? Far from the best? If they are "far from the best" at handling, who is "far better"?

Is it Ferrari? Aston? Corvette? ///M? Because those guys lose a lot to "far from the best" Porsches.
Haha, and that's the 911, imagine if Porsche got behind the Cayman as a racing platform.
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      12-05-2011, 03:17 PM   #169
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Haha, and that's the 911, imagine if Porsche got behind the Cayman as a racing platform.
I'm not going to get into a debate about Cayman vs 911 as a racing platform. If people want a Cayman, they can get it, I'm not a 911 snob.

But when someone says "Porsche is far from the best at handling" I just want to know what car or brand is far better. I think the 911 handling speaks for itself (16 LeMans titles, 18 Sebring titles, numerous FIA GT #1 podium finishes).
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      12-05-2011, 03:37 PM   #170
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I'm not going to get into a debate about Cayman vs 911 as a racing platform. If people want a Cayman, they can get it, I'm not a 911 snob.
Sorry, wasn't trying to start that argument, just that a mid engine car should be capable of providing more accessible handling than rear engined. Like you said, the racing history of the 911 does speak for itself.
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      12-05-2011, 03:50 PM   #171
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But when someone says "Porsche is far from the best at handling" I just want to know what car or brand is far better. I think the 911 handling speaks for itself
Unfortunately, you will never know how far from the best the 911 is until Porsche put the same effort on something like a Cayman to make it the best racing car they can as they did with the 911 (it wouldn't take 45 years, trust me!).

BTW, what was the last major championship title won by the 911?
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      12-05-2011, 04:26 PM   #172
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BTW, what was the last major championship title won by the 911?
A GT3 RSR won 24 Hours of Nurburgring in June.

A GT3 RSR just won the GTE Am class in LeMans in September (Armindo/Nirac) beating out a Ferrari for the top spot. That team is also going to compete in Le Mans 24 next year.
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      12-05-2011, 04:30 PM   #173
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Supercharged Toyota GT 86 in the pipeline


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The existing Subaru sourced 197bhp (147 kW / 200PS) 2.0 naturally aspirated boxer engine will benefit from a supercharger which should boost the overall power output by at least 50bhp. The existing chassis is believed to be strong enough to easily cope with the extra power, but Toyota will be working on an improved suspension system.


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The standard GT 86 will accelerate from 0-62mph (0-100kph) in around 6.8sec in addition to a top speed of 143mph (230 km/h).
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      12-05-2011, 04:32 PM   #174
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Sorry, wasn't trying to start that argument, just that a mid engine car should be capable of providing more accessible handling than rear engined. Like you said, the racing history of the 911 does speak for itself.
No need to apologize, I know you weren't being inflammatory. It wasn't even your comment I took exception to.

I just wanted to know how a car that continually beats some of the world's most recognized performance brands in head to head competition can be considered "far from the best" handling cars in the world.

Regardless, this discussion is completely off-topic, and I think I've made my point.
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      12-05-2011, 04:42 PM   #175
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Regardless, this discussion is completely off-topic, and I think I've made my point.
Agreed, but do we really keep any topic on target around here?

Back to that 6.8 0-60 time, really? That's disappointing, and furthers my argument that the lighter, less powerful, but similar power to weight Miata isn't far off the mark, since it's similarly (not) quick. Here's to hoping they're further along with that supercharger than they've let on.
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      12-05-2011, 05:39 PM   #176
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A GT3 RSR won 24 Hours of Nurburgring in June.

A GT3 RSR just won the GTE Am class in LeMans in September (Armindo/Nirac) beating out a Ferrari for the top spot. That team is also going to compete in Le Mans 24 next year.

I've asked for a MAJOR CHAMPIONSHIP title won by the 911... the 24 Hours of Nurburgring is only a single race and the GTE Am is a secondary category for GTs (997 and F430) in the Le Mans Series, GTE Pro's being the main one and won by the F458.
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