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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > General E90 Sedan / E91 Wagon / E92 Coupe / E93 Cabrio > THE MOST RECKLESS BMW DEALERSHIP IN THE USA... and their lawyers..



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      01-05-2012, 12:08 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by matrix76 View Post
Just signed in, first post, and you sound like a rep for BMWNA. Where the hell did you come from?
I'm not a rep from BMW; I came from another forum where this thread was being discussed. It seems obvious so I shouldn't really have to explain it but that's what happens when you set out to publicise a problem by posting it on various sites on the Internet. Thousands of people read about it and some of them will come to either leave commentary or to ask questions about it. In other words, I'm the direct result of the publicity that's been sought: you have proactively called me here by proactively seeking my voice in this campaign to spread this thread to other places on the Internet

Note that the question is still just as valid regardless of who asks it though. I could be Hitler himself, or the worst killer in the land, and it would be completely irrelevant because the question is still relevant and obvious and needs to be asked. In general, if you have a problem with a question you should try and explain what the problem is (how the question is flawed) rather than trying to discredit the person asking it, as that would be ad hominem.

The question is actually for arguru though so I'd rather he answered it than you, unless he has already comprehensively answered it and you can provide a link to where he has.
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      01-05-2012, 12:10 AM   #178
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I could be Hitler himself...
228 posts before Godwin struck.. That has to be a new record.
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      01-05-2012, 12:34 AM   #179
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lol.
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      01-05-2012, 12:39 AM   #180
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Originally Posted by arguru View Post
I've made it clear to you Richard **cough cough BMW/Penske**

All I want is my rims that were bent fixed (or give me some used 189's, just let me get back on the damn road) as well as the remaining faults that played a role in the steering problem fixed. I don't care if they're not under my CPO, your negligence almost killed me.

...and also a warm hug too...

If you think the hug is a bit excessive then you can just fix my damn wheels and steering issues and we'll call it even as all I'm going to do is sell the damn car and go with a Lexus or Audi now anyways and I'm NOT about to sell a defective car to an innocent unsuspecting victim. I'll leave that to you guys.

It really is that simple. Any of your BMW or Penske cohorts will tell you the same. The only thing I've asked is the bare minimum to get my car back in safe, reliable, and working condition.
I'll ignore the false allegation as I actually don't care whether you do or don't think I am BMW/Penske. It does raise a slight problem for me though because although I've read all the threads and followed your story and believed you I happen to know that I'm not BMW/Penske. But I've now just seen you come to completely the wrong conclusion based on absolutely no evidence at all, so although you were quite plausible before you now aren't; certainly some of your reasoning (that I am BMW/Penske) is very obviously flawed so I'm no longer quite so sure about the rest of your reasoning and your testimony.

That said, I don't actually care too much because your reasoning is not my problem, it's your problem.

So if one of the two remaining problems is the error codes that the third party repair shop found, the obvious questions are...

1. What do the error codes actually mean? What problems do they indicate? Has anyone in this forum been able to diagnose them?

2. What did the second dealership that fixed the computer problem say about those codes?

Also, I noticed in one of your other posts that "BMWNA is refusing to even touch the repair bill (that was done at their chosen CPO dealership), claiming that this wasn't their fault and it's on Penske because of their neglect to properly diagnose the car". Don't you want them to pay that bill anymore?
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      01-05-2012, 01:29 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by RichardJones View Post
But I've now just seen you come to completely the wrong conclusion based on absolutely no evidence at all, so although you were quite plausible before you now aren't; certainly some of your reasoning (that I am BMW/Penske) is very obviously flawed so I'm no longer quite so sure about the rest of your reasoning and your testimony.
Actually, I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt initially, but you just lost me there.

Let's see what happened. You just joined the forum, and so far you've made 3 posts.

Post #1: Asking the OP for the exact terms of resolution.

Post #2: Denying any affiliation with BMW or Penske, by saying, and I quote, "that's what happens when you set out to publicise a problem by posting it on various sites on the Internet".

Post #3: Deliberately questioning arguru's credibility, based on the fact that he found your very suspicious original post, well, suspicious.

So.... who are you and what are you doing here?
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      01-05-2012, 04:54 AM   #182
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Post #1: Asking the OP for the exact terms of resolution
Yes. This makes perfect sense to me and I don't understand why anyone would have a problem with it. It's a question that a few people have asked both here and in other forums but that I hadn't seen answered yet. In any situation where you have a problem, in order to resolve it you have to know what you want to happen to resolve it. There was much talk of the problem but it wasn't clear to me exactly what arguru actually wanted, so I asked specifically what it was. You seem to be implying that asking what to me is the most obvious, logical and relevant question is wrong in some way. Can you explain why it's wrong?
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Post #2: Denying any affiliation with BMW or Penske, by saying, and I quote, "that's what happens when you set out to publicise a problem by posting it on various sites on the Internet"
Yes, it's a fact. You have a problem, you post it in a forum, people get angry about it and set out to post it to more forums to give it higher visibility. They literally "set out to publicise a problem by posting it on various sites on the Internet". It's happened a thousand times before and it will happen a thousand times again. As a result you will definitely get higher visibility of the problem (assuming it's something that resonates with people) and as a result of that you will definitely get more people coming along and reading the original posting of the problem and you will also get more people commenting on it. You seem to be implying that by pointing out this obvious fact that you must already know for yourself that I'm doing something wrong. Can you explain what is wrong with it?
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Post #3: Deliberately questioning arguru's credibility, based on the fact that he found your very suspicious original post, well, suspicious
Actually no. I definitely didn't question his credibility based on the fact that he found my post suspicious. I questioned his reasoning because he concluded that I was something I'm not based on such ludicrous evidence. Those are two very different things. One is suspicion of something: that it might be. The other is a firm conclusion that it is. You illustrated the difference quite well here...
  • matrix76 thought I sounded like a rep for BMWNA. That is suspicion.
  • You and darebornsolja thought it was getting interesting. That is suspicion
  • arguru immediately concluded that I was "cough cough BMW/Penske". That is not suspicion, it's a firm conclusion. Given that I already know I'm not BMW/Penske, I already know for an absolute and undeniable fact that he is wrong. So now that I know that he can very easily and very quickly draw the wrong conclusion how can I trust the rest of his conclusions to the same degree that I did before?
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So.... who are you and what are you doing here?
I'm not sure what you're asking. Do you want my name, my nationality, my age, my country - what exactly do you mean? Note that I've already told you what I'm doing here and that I've actually already done it (I asked a question).
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You just joined the forum, and so far you've made 3 posts
Technically yes. But really I've made one post asking a completely logical question, one posts correcting a false allegation and then one post asking a (very valid and again very logical and obvious) follow up question. I think if you take a step back and think about it a little you'll see that it actually makes a lot of sense for someone to take the time to point out they aren't something that they've been falsely accused of, and then to try and reask the question that was ignored in favour of the false allegation, and then to ask a logical follow on question. It's very possible and quite likely that your natural reaction to this post will be to accuse me of all sorts of things because I took the time to answer your further allegations. Again though, I think if you take a step back and have a think about it you'll see that it's entirely logical for someone to answer questions that you specifically ask them.
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      01-05-2012, 05:00 AM   #183
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We've been through the error codes and what they mean throughout the two related posts.
I'll re-read them and see if I can find them. What I've gotten so far though is this:
  • You want the rims fixed
  • You want the remaining faults that played a role in the steering problem fixed (I assume you mean the faults that are indicated by the third party diagnosed error codes that I mentioned above, and the relevance of those codes has already been discussed throughout the two posts).
  • You aren't willing to say what the second dealership thought about those error codes (or you've already said what they thought about them and it's in the previous comments)
  • You don't care if the faults aren't covered under you CPO. This is information I didn't have before. I hadn't realised that the repairs you wanted weren't covered by the CPO, I thought they were covered by the CPO but they were refusing to fix them
  • You aren't prepared to say if you do or don't want the cost of the repair bill from the second dealership paid (or you've already said and it's in the previous comments). From that it seems like you're happy with paying it (which seems very unlikely given the situation) or it was already waived or it was covered by the CPO.
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      01-05-2012, 07:30 AM   #184
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For what it's worth, imho Richard Jones is being accused of working for your dealer because he is asking logical questions using proper grammar and complete sentences. My guess is that he is an attorney or other professional in which he writes documents for a living. Hardly sufficient evidence that he in fact works for your dealer or BMW.

Having said that, would it be so bad if it was your dealer or BMW? Actively engaging you in a public forum asking you what needs to happen to bring the situation to resolution?

I've been following the thread from the start and I sympathize. If it happened to me I would have been very angry to say the least. But it has been weeks. You've vented. Now you have to decide what you want to do.

My $.02

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      01-05-2012, 09:03 AM   #185
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Not at all if he/she identified his or herself properly as opposed to an alias.

With that said, I don't think Dick is a rep for anyone. He's just not very good with sarcasm.
I agree. It also seems to me that Richard (Dick) is very well informed about all of your issues with BMW/Penske and he is accumulating all of the facts related to your problem, not mention the safey issues raised. His assessment of what he finds will be used to come up with a resolve to put an end to all the negative publicity towards BMW/Penske and BMW North Scottsdale that is spreading across the net. I also believe that all of these additional posting outside of this thread are starting to have an affect on the powers to be. I see no other reason why RichardJones, aka LAWYER , or who is a rep for someone, would have shown up here all of a sudden. IMO

I will also add one thing, with all the money BMW and other companies spend on advertising, do they not realize that in this day in age treating customers fairly and with respect is their best advertising. I mean look what this thread has come to for them, an absolute shit hole of publicity.
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Last edited by matrix76; 01-05-2012 at 10:43 AM.
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      01-05-2012, 09:22 AM   #186
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I'm glad this is going to be on Jalponik soon, I'm very excited Arguru!

With that said, I don't think Dick is a rep for anyone. He's just not very good with sarcasm.[/quote]

So my google-fu has brought up a few pages that are questionable. If you search google for "richard jones penske" you'll find a couple of mentions of the two. Including a facebook page for Penske's BMW North Scottsdale, seen here. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll see that the outing was liked by a Richard Jones... So, riddle me this batman, a RichardJones appears and starts asking questions in an interesting manner and raises several suspicions, and has a connection to BMW North Scottsdale. Now, this is assuming the new user isn't very creative and used his real name, but I think we have a Red Alert gents.

More google-fu coming...
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      01-05-2012, 10:10 AM   #187
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^^^^^^+1. Yes, he may deny that he is not affiliated with BMW N.A nor Penske BMW, but the contents/analysis, in which, how he raised suspicion regarding Arguru's claims, sounded like either, an attorney, or someone who is affiliated with Penske.
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      01-05-2012, 10:21 AM   #188
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Well done cptcrunch.

I also believe "Richard Jones" is a lawyer. His intentions may be noble seeking an amicable resolution to this situation between BMW/Penske/BMWNA, et all. I don't believe that for a second. That said, he may very well be the rep that has signed on to cover the butt of the GM, the SA, and/or any involved parties who downplayed the thrown codes. This representaion would be on a personal level, not corporate.

I would bet we now have several lawyers who are interested in the developements transpiring, ie, what would have to happen to resolve this issue and make it go away.

My question to the lawyers. Would there be a lingering responsibility on the part of those involved that have attempted to sweep this under the rug and did not bring this out for a complete and thorough investigation as to the cause of the initial steering failure? Would some parties possibly be liable for damages and prosecution should another incident occur, this one with catastrophic consequences as a result of their lack of professional safety ethics?

Just a few random thoughts that came to mind.
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      01-05-2012, 10:36 AM   #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andrewket View Post
For what it's worth, imho Richard Jones is being accused of working for your dealer because he is asking logical questions using proper grammar and complete sentences. My guess is that he is an attorney or other professional in which he writes documents for a living. Hardly sufficient evidence that he in fact works for your dealer or BMW.

Having said that, would it be so bad if it was your dealer or BMW? Actively engaging you in a public forum asking you what needs to happen to bring the situation to resolution?

I've been following the thread from the start and I sympathize. If it happened to me I would have been very angry to say the least. But it has been weeks. You've vented. Now you have to decide what you want to do.

My $.02

A
Seriously? Mr. Richard signs on to this board and right away goes to work on this post because he saw it posted on other boards? Come on man lol...
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      01-05-2012, 10:40 AM   #190
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Well done cptcrunch.

I also believe "Richard Jones" is a lawyer. His intentions may be noble seeking an amicable resolution to this situation between BMW/Penske/BMWNA, et all. I don't believe that for a second. That said, he may very well be the rep that has signed on to cover the butt of the GM, the SA, and/or any involved parties who downplayed the thrown codes. This representaion would be on a personal level, not corporate.

I would bet we now have several lawyers who are interested in the developements transpiring, ie, what would have to happen to resolve this issue and make it go away.

My question to the lawyers. Would there be a lingering responsibility on the part of those involved that have attempted to sweep this under the rug and did not bring this out for a complete and thorough investigation as to the cause of the initial steering failure? Would some parties possibly be liable for damages and prosecution should another incident occur, this one with catastrophic consequences as a result of their lack of professional safety ethics?

Just a few random thoughts that came to mind.
There is nothing nobel about not admiting to the truth doesnt matter what his intentions are.. from the start he should have said who he is, what are his intentions etc... Instead all he has done is stir the pot!
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      01-05-2012, 11:11 AM   #191
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Seriously? Mr. Richard signs on to this board and right away goes to work on this post because he saw it posted on other boards? Come on man lol...
He's most likely being paid by the hour, so why not?
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      01-05-2012, 11:16 AM   #192
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have bmw buy the car back and supply one WITHOUT ACTIVE STEERING.

Let this car follow in the footsteps of all those M3s that got trashed on the shipping vessel.

ppp

p.s. if it gets destroyed before the NHTA get their hands on it... no proof bmw
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      01-05-2012, 11:31 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by cptcrunch View Post
So my google-fu has brought up a few pages that are questionable. If you search google for "richard jones penske" you'll find a couple of mentions of the two. Including a facebook page for Penske's BMW North Scottsdale, seen here. If you scroll down to the bottom of the page, you'll see that the outing was liked by a Richard Jones... So, riddle me this batman, a RichardJones appears and starts asking questions in an interesting manner and raises several suspicions, and has a connection to BMW North Scottsdale. Now, this is assuming the new user isn't very creative and used his real name, but I think we have a Red Alert gents.

More google-fu coming...
And the plot thickens
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      01-05-2012, 11:37 AM   #194
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I'll ignore the false allegation as I actually don't care whether you do or don't think I am BMW/Penske. It does raise a slight problem for me though because although I've read all the threads and followed your story and believed you I happen to know that I'm not BMW/Penske. But I've now just seen you come to completely the wrong conclusion based on absolutely no evidence at all, so although you were quite plausible before you now aren't; certainly some of your reasoning (that I am BMW/Penske) is very obviously flawed so I'm no longer quite so sure about the rest of your reasoning and your testimony.
In my opinion, and I'm sure many others who have read your posts, the only person who has their credibility in question is you. You've come to this forum apparently out of some innate curiosity about what can possibly be done to set things right - odd in itself considering the most natural first questions one might have is to understand the problem deeper. The very next post when the OP jokingly questions whether you are with Penske/BMW, which by the way was a reasonable assumption given your direct questioning towards resolution, you perform some linguistic and logical gymnastics to assume that the OP's joke was in fact a conclusion and not a suspicion and try to undermine his credibility after 3 short posts on this forum.

If you aren't a lawyer, or with any of the parties involved in this case, then you are just a jerk and are adding nothing of value to this discussion.
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      01-05-2012, 11:47 AM   #195
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The Empire Strikes Back? I think Richard would have a different reception if he had a track record here, not just a first series of posts.
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      01-05-2012, 11:51 AM   #196
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If you aren't a lawyer, or with any of the parties involved in this case, then you are just a jerk and are adding nothing of value to this discussion.
most lawyers are jerk by default... no? ....
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      01-05-2012, 11:57 AM   #197
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I think it's safe to say this has turned into entertainment with no redemptive value in sight. Allegations and conspiracy theories abound. OP is now on record accusing these entities of less than upright motive and conduct, else he'd be sued by now for libel. Really? What else are you going to throw against the wall? OP started out with a very level-headed set of claims to now bordering hysteria and irrationality. Stone-walling has that effect on some people.

Take a break to reassess your strategy.

Thank you for the lesson.
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      01-05-2012, 12:10 PM   #198
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most lawyers are jerk by default... no? ....
Well my point was that at least if he was affiliated with someone who could actually help, his initial line of questioning might have some redeeming interpretation. Otherwise, he's just a boring old jerk off the internet streets.
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