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      01-07-2012, 08:59 PM   #45
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      01-07-2012, 09:08 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by pearlwhites View Post
This is funny since the 1M is constantly compared to one of the most hardcore Porsche's around (Cayman R). BMW is obviously not for you, go buy a 911.
i have a 911. i also have an e46 m3 and an e90 335xi.

bmw is for me. but i don't make the car into something it isn't. i love bmw, i love the welt, i love their desire to be on the leading edge of technology.

i work in the automotive journalism industry, so i really wouldn't put any merit in what C&D or MT or RT say. theres a reason guys like Chris Harris are so revered in this field. he speaks the truth and doesn't care if it hurts anyones feeling.

the 1m is a great car, but like all M cars, its a compromise. when i went to BMW NA this past summer and asked them why they didn't put in a v8 into the 1m, which seemed like the most sensible thing to do (z3m had the s52 from the e36 m3, the z3m and z4m also had the s54 from the e46 m3 -weened down but still an s54). they indicated that they were more interested in fuel efficiency than power, since the car was plenty powerful already. that seems like they were just making the car to sell it, not really to appease enthusiasts.

thats like what clarkson said about the cayman and Porsche - it seemed more about marketing than about passion. they chose to make everything in between the boxster and the 911 as they didn't want the 911 to be embarrassed. in this case, bmw didn't want to embarrass the v8 m3.

but yeah, i love BMW.
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      01-08-2012, 03:05 AM   #47
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few points:
in my opinion - a sports car should be simple layout - rwd, manual gearbox, limited slip diff - obviously the transmission does not dictate a sports car or not - ferrari, mclaren, etc. all use double/single clutch gearboxes. i think a sports car also has to have some aspect to it, that doesn't allow the "focus" of the car to be compromised.

the gts is unavailable to the US Market - so its not a sports car we can ALL enjoy. its also a limited edition car.

the size of the e9x chassis, in my opinion, is way too big to be categorized as a sports car. its not even a compact sports sedan in my eyes. i think the e9x m3 is a luxury coupe.

if you go back to the original e30 m3, it was a homologated car that was not luxurious by any means, although it was much better equipped than competitors cars, it was a harsh car. it was rough riding and it was loud, and high revving.

you had to LIVE w/the car and its quirks on a daily basis. todays cars are all luxurious boats. BMW doesn't make ONE car that is like that. if you look at Porsche - they make, i believe, 27 variants of the 911. every single one of those coupes (not cabriolets) are true sports cars. if you ever drive one, its not the luxurious boat feeling you get in a BMW, Merc, or Audi. Its raw, its rough, its mechanical sounding, etc. the car has quirks and character. look at the underside of a 911. its completely flat - for aerodynamic purposes. every single part of the car is focused and has a reason for being the way it is - not just for cost cutting measures (BMW, Merc,Audi, etc.)

no car BMW makes does that for me. they all have become softer and softer, but thats for the good of the company as the type of person that buys a bmw no longer is interested in keeping it forever. more than likely, they will drive the car for a few years and then get the next gen. frankly thats to me.

based on that, i don't believe bmw makes any sports car. do the cars they make - are they sporty in nature? yes. they have great suspension geometry, wonderful limited slip differentials, great gearboxes, lovely chassis, and great steering, but no they are not TRUE sports cars.

the m3 has always been a sports coupe. never a "true" sports car, a la the 911.



+1



the 1m is absolutely NOT a sports car. its a luxury coupe first and foremost, and has upgraded components, but its by no means a sports car - look at its drag coefficient! worst than a stock 3 series.


i never considered BMW to make sports cars. thats what was cool about the M division before they destroyed it with SAVs and Turdbros. they always took vehicles off the line, strengthened the chassis, improved the suspension geometry, pepped up the motor, and had a fun car that had all the practicality of the non M version.

now bmw just uses the M badge to sell cars
Are you kidding? --- I honestly cannot tell =-). Have you sat in a modern 911? You don't think that leather wrapping EVERYTHING that I can possibly touch doesn't make it a luxary car? If that isn't over kill, I don't know what is. What funny quarks do you have to deal with in a modern 911? They have pretty much made it a luxary boat in your defination as well. Have you looked under and M3, it looks pretty well purpose designed to me... You measure a sports car by how much you hate it when you drive it?

Owned an Acura NSX before owning my M3. I think we can all agree that the NSX was a true "sports car". The M3 is in every possible imaginable way superior in the performance to the NSX. Not only that, it is infinately more practical - it has all the the comfort options AND performs. Its the perfect melding of performance and function. I used to be a raw performance guy, but that means you need two cars. Two cars just are a pain to maintain. I put MAYBE 2k miles on my NSX for 4-5 years, but insured it and maintained it. I paid more than a dollar per mile per year just in upkeep and maintiance just to garage it for 10 months out of the year. Its just not worth it. I drive my M3 to work every day and it brings joy to my face each and every time I hit the start button.

You say BMW uses the M badge to sell cars. That maybe true, but Porsche has been pulling the 911 designation to sell cars for the past 40 years. Why do we need 27 variations of a 911?
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      01-08-2012, 12:07 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
i have a 911. i also have an e46 m3 and an e90 335xi.

bmw is for me. but i don't make the car into something it isn't. i love bmw, i love the welt, i love their desire to be on the leading edge of technology.

i work in the automotive journalism industry, so i really wouldn't put any merit in what C&D or MT or RT say. theres a reason guys like Chris Harris are so revered in this field. he speaks the truth and doesn't care if it hurts anyones feeling.

the 1m is a great car, but like all M cars, its a compromise. when i went to BMW NA this past summer and asked them why they didn't put in a v8 into the 1m, which seemed like the most sensible thing to do (z3m had the s52 from the e36 m3, the z3m and z4m also had the s54 from the e46 m3 -weened down but still an s54). they indicated that they were more interested in fuel efficiency than power, since the car was plenty powerful already. that seems like they were just making the car to sell it, not really to appease enthusiasts.

thats like what clarkson said about the cayman and Porsche - it seemed more about marketing than about passion. they chose to make everything in between the boxster and the 911 as they didn't want the 911 to be embarrassed. in this case, bmw didn't want to embarrass the v8 m3.

but yeah, i love BMW.
If the 911 is a true sports car...is your AUTOMATIC AWD 911 more of a sports car then my manual only 1M? I could care less about labeling a car a sports car or not, but how can you argue the 1M is not the purest form of BMW since the E30? Have you tracked it or let alone driven one?

1M is by no means a luxury coupe, unless you classify having leather as luxurious. I have no options, manual seats, no sunroof or any electronic gadgetry. So where do you get the basis of it being a luxury coupe?

M division is still alive and kicking...you just have to find the most focused models they produce. Instead of posting bullshit on the forums you should have used some of your ingenius automotive foresight and placed a deposit on one of the best M cars ever made.

Now go ahead and make up some bullshit response and contradict yourself yet again.
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      01-08-2012, 02:12 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by TUNEDM3 View Post
If the 911 is a true sports car...is your AUTOMATIC AWD 911 more of a sports car then my manual only 1M? I could care less about labeling a car a sports car or not, but how can you argue the 1M is not the purest form of BMW since the E30? Have you tracked it or let alone driven one?

1M is by no means a luxury coupe, unless you classify having leather as luxurious. I have no options, manual seats, no sunroof or any electronic gadgetry. So where do you get the basis of it being a luxury coupe?

M division is still alive and kicking...you just have to find the most focused models they produce. Instead of posting bullshit on the forums you should have used some of your ingenius automotive foresight and placed a deposit on one of the best M cars ever made.

Now go ahead and make up some bullshit response and contradict yourself yet again.
oh t-neck.

i never said MY 911 was the purest form of what a sports car is, but you can't say to me that the 1M is a uncompromised sports car. my 911 has compromises. i admit it. i did say that porsche still offers the option for people to have a real sports car. and by that i am referring to the gt3 and the gt3 rs and if you want to go by your motto - you can order a carrera s stripped. those cars can be equipped with all sorts of luxury items, but thats usually the case with porsche - they allow you to make a 50k boxster into a 100k entry level convertible. but at the end of the day, the gt3 is the purest 911 they make and it has to be since its a homologated model. no m car that bmw makes does that, for me at least.

my basis for the 1m being a luxury coupe is pretty much the way i think of bmw. u know it and i know it, the m3 used to be a sports car first and a daily driver second. due to cafe regulations and more importantly competition with Audi and Mercedes, now wants their cars to be more efficient and fuel economical than performance based. i.e. why bmw is bringing turbos to the m line and there are only a few v8s and v12s in the line up and NO MORE INLINE 6 motors - that was what BMW was based on, remember?

the 1m is more of a daily driver than an uncompromised car. i remember a video of you talking about what the ideal bmw sports car was. size of the 1 series, lighter car, with a different motor - dunno if you said v8 or v10 - definitely not a twin turbo motor. bmw has the ability to give the 1m an adjustable suspension like the gt3. bmw has the ability to give the 1m brembo brakes, like the gt3. bmw has the ability to give the 1m proper under car aerodynamics, like the gt3. but it doesn't, because its not a sports car. its a car that you can drive on a daily basis, but also is sporty. not a true sports car. a true sports car kind of takes practicality out of the situation. its more focused. i.e. cayman r or gt3. but thats what makes BMW great. they take cars that are practical and make them a bit more focused, but still they have compromises (build quality, mechanical problems, weight, etc.)

how many of the 3000 1m"s were ordered as stripper cars like yours? not many. most of the 1Ms that dealers sourced, I've checked, all have navigation. bmw is in the business, as they should be, of making profit vs. making the best car they can make. not saying porsche doesn't do that as well, but porsche does offer those kind of models for the us. if BMW brought the GTS or the E46 M3 CSL here, like they made the e36 ltw, then i'd say, yeah thats the bmw sports car. otherwise, they are all compromised.

i didn't put an order on the 1M because, in my 335xi i have the same motor, and i wouldn't trust that motor as a track car motor. as a daily driver sure, but not a track car motor. i also would have preferred the v8 m3 over the 1M. + if i had 50k to spend, i would buy a 996 GT3 for that price. i think that coil overs, intake, exhaust, tune, tires, brakes, will all add up to the cost of a used 996 GT3.


so in conclusion, the term sports car is too broad. what a sports car for one person, may not be a sports car to another. to me, i don't think bmw makes ANY sports cars for US sales. the only sports car they make is the GTS, but even then its more money than a GT3 and doesn't perform nearly as well.

so no, bmw makes NO sports cars and the 1M, in my eyes, is a luxury coupe. obviously more focused than a 135 or a 335, but still not a sports car.



edit: saw this on wikipedia

"Sports car versus sporting models

A car may be a sporting automobile without being a sports car. Performance modifications of regular, production cars, such as sport compacts, sports sedans, muscle cars, hot hatches and the like, generally are not considered sports cars, yet share traits common to sports cars. They are sometimes called "sports cars" for marketing purposes for increased advertising and promotional purposes.[5] Performance cars of all configurations are grouped as Sports and Grand tourer cars or, occasionally, as performance cars."

that sounds like what BMW makes. sporting automobile.

-Crossa, Robert G. and Dixit, Ashutosh. "Customer-centric pricing: The surprising secret for profitability" Business Horizons, Volume 48, Issue 6, November-December 2005, pages 483–491.-
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      01-08-2012, 02:25 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vuudoopham View Post
Are you kidding? --- I honestly cannot tell =-). Have you sat in a modern 911? You don't think that leather wrapping EVERYTHING that I can possibly touch doesn't make it a luxary car? If that isn't over kill, I don't know what is. What funny quarks do you have to deal with in a modern 911? They have pretty much made it a luxary boat in your defination as well. Have you looked under and M3, it looks pretty well purpose designed to me... You measure a sports car by how much you hate it when you drive it?

Owned an Acura NSX before owning my M3. I think we can all agree that the NSX was a true "sports car". The M3 is in every possible imaginable way superior in the performance to the NSX. Not only that, it is infinately more practical - it has all the the comfort options AND performs. Its the perfect melding of performance and function. I used to be a raw performance guy, but that means you need two cars. Two cars just are a pain to maintain. I put MAYBE 2k miles on my NSX for 4-5 years, but insured it and maintained it. I paid more than a dollar per mile per year just in upkeep and maintiance just to garage it for 10 months out of the year. Its just not worth it. I drive my M3 to work every day and it brings joy to my face each and every time I hit the start button.

You say BMW uses the M badge to sell cars. That maybe true, but Porsche has been pulling the 911 designation to sell cars for the past 40 years. Why do we need 27 variations of a 911?

i respect your opinion. i think porsche has somewhat faltered, just how bmw has over the years. but porsche still offers the option of a true sports car - gt3.

i also respect that you owned a legend - the NSX - still a car that i dream of owning. sad to hear of your troubles with the car.

what you describe is what makes the m3 a great car to get. it offers sports car performance but has the space to accommodate a small family safely.

i believe that Porsche still offers 27 models just so it can satisfy the hard core enthusiasts (GT3) to the ridiculously hot trophy wife that wants a Porsche convertible automatic with AWD. (C4 dpk cabriolet)
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      01-08-2012, 02:43 PM   #51
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PKumarM3 View Post
few points:
in my opinion - a sports car should be simple layout - rwd, manual gearbox, limited slip diff - obviously the transmission does not dictate a sports car or not - ferrari, mclaren, etc. all use double/single clutch gearboxes. i think a sports car also has to have some aspect to it, that doesn't allow the "focus" of the car to be compromised.

the gts is unavailable to the US Market - so its not a sports car we can ALL enjoy. its also a limited edition car.

the size of the e9x chassis, in my opinion, is way too big to be categorized as a sports car. its not even a compact sports sedan in my eyes. i think the e9x m3 is a luxury coupe.

if you go back to the original e30 m3, it was a homologated car that was not luxurious by any means, although it was much better equipped than competitors cars, it was a harsh car. it was rough riding and it was loud, and high revving.

you had to LIVE w/the car and its quirks on a daily basis. todays cars are all luxurious boats. BMW doesn't make ONE car that is like that. if you look at Porsche - they make, i believe, 27 variants of the 911. every single one of those coupes (not cabriolets) are true sports cars. if you ever drive one, its not the luxurious boat feeling you get in a BMW, Merc, or Audi. Its raw, its rough, its mechanical sounding, etc. the car has quirks and character. look at the underside of a 911. its completely flat - for aerodynamic purposes. every single part of the car is focused and has a reason for being the way it is - not just for cost cutting measures (BMW, Merc,Audi, etc.)

no car BMW makes does that for me. they all have become softer and softer, but thats for the good of the company as the type of person that buys a bmw no longer is interested in keeping it forever. more than likely, they will drive the car for a few years and then get the next gen. frankly thats to me.

based on that, i don't believe bmw makes any sports car. do the cars they make - are they sporty in nature? yes. they have great suspension geometry, wonderful limited slip differentials, great gearboxes, lovely chassis, and great steering, but no they are not TRUE sports cars.

the m3 has always been a sports coupe. never a "true" sports car, a la the 911.



+1



the 1m is absolutely NOT a sports car. its a luxury coupe first and foremost, and has upgraded components, but its by no means a sports car - look at its drag coefficient! worst than a stock 3 series.


i never considered BMW to make sports cars. thats what was cool about the M division before they destroyed it with SAVs and Turdbros. they always took vehicles off the line, strengthened the chassis, improved the suspension geometry, pepped up the motor, and had a fun car that had all the practicality of the non M version.

now bmw just uses the M badge to sell cars
Are you kidding? --- I honestly cannot tell =-). Have you sat in a modern 911? You don't think that leather wrapping EVERYTHING that I can possibly touch doesn't make it a luxary car? If that isn't over kill, I don't know what is. What funny quarks do you have to deal with in a modern 911? They have pretty much made it a luxary boat in your defination as well. Have you looked under and M3, it looks pretty well purpose designed to me... You measure a sports car by how much you hate it when you drive it?

Owned an Acura NSX before owning my M3. I think we can all agree that the NSX was a true "sports car". The M3 is in every possible imaginable way superior in the performance to the NSX. Not only that, it is infinately more practical - it has all the the comfort options AND performs. Its the perfect melding of performance and function. I used to be a raw performance guy, but that means you need two cars. Two cars just are a pain to maintain. I put MAYBE 2k miles on my NSX for 4-5 years, but insured it and maintained it. I paid more than a dollar per mile per year just in upkeep and maintiance just to garage it for 10 months out of the year. Its just not worth it. I drive my M3 to work every day and it brings joy to my face each and every time I hit the start button.

You say BMW uses the M badge to sell cars. That maybe true, but Porsche has been pulling the 911 designation to sell cars for the past 40 years. Why do we need 27 variations of a 911?
+1
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      01-08-2012, 03:10 PM   #52
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      01-08-2012, 03:20 PM   #53
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      01-08-2012, 03:49 PM   #54
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      01-08-2012, 04:01 PM   #55
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joy is the ultimate driving machine.

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      01-08-2012, 05:14 PM   #56
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Now to make good on going back to their old slogan, BMW needs to offer at least one model thatís somewhat in line with the new Toyota GT-86 (Scion FR-S)/Subaru BRZ - a lightweight, back to the basics, no frills sports car (the 1M came close but not close enough).
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      01-08-2012, 05:17 PM   #57
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Huh? Just because we can't buy dozens of other sports cars priced in the six figure range doesn't mean they "don't count" either.

Your argument is invalid.
I think he meant because they don't sell the GTS in N. America...
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      01-08-2012, 07:29 PM   #58
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JOY was the epitome of wuss commercialized. The Ultimate Driving Machine is like James Bond driving through a hail of gunfire to pick up his supermodel girl so they can arrive tastefully late to a brat and beerfest.
Bingo! We have a winner!

I just never understood how you could put the word 'JOY' on a kickass Grand-Am race car?!

Hell, I would have understood if BMW racing would have had TUMs as the sponsor (The Ultimate Machine[s]), but a dumb marketing logan like'JOY'?! Boy, that made me want to be seen in a BMW...not!
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      01-08-2012, 07:31 PM   #59
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oh my goodness people.... all this talk about BMW not making sports cars and how they have compromised blah blah blah is all a load of crap. yes, the e30 m3 is a one of a kind but you need to stop living in the past. The brand has evolved and is still evolving with the times and efficiency is what matters sells to the public right now. With the company's success, what did you expect was going to happen? If you can make something better than the previous, and make it more efficient, why not?

yes the F10 M5 doesn't sound as aggressive as the previous v10.... yeah the i6 will be missed in the 3 series. But if BMW thought that performance would be compromised to improve efficiency, I think they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the turbo i4. Until we see more of the car, we can only hope that they made a car even better.
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      01-08-2012, 08:25 PM   #61
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      01-08-2012, 08:41 PM   #62
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oh my goodness people.... all this talk about BMW not making sports cars and how they have compromised blah blah blah is all a load of crap. yes, the e30 m3 is a one of a kind but you need to stop living in the past. The brand has evolved and is still evolving with the times and efficiency is what matters sells to the public right now. With the company's success, what did you expect was going to happen? If you can make something better than the previous, and make it more efficient, why not?

yes the F10 M5 doesn't sound as aggressive as the previous v10.... yeah the i6 will be missed in the 3 series. But if BMW thought that performance would be compromised to improve efficiency, I think they wouldn't have pulled the trigger on the turbo i4. Until we see more of the car, we can only hope that they made a car even better.
+1 living not in the past

disagree, I think the F10 M5 is much better than the E60 in every aspect.
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      01-08-2012, 10:17 PM   #63
kmarei
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Great ad
Sure beats that joy crap
What the hell is joy?
They should have just called it gay
The older English meaning of course
That's like Audi having a tag line of Happy
Compare that with
The Ultimate Drivng machine
I can just smell the testosterone in that statement
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      01-09-2012, 12:54 AM   #64
Glim
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Joy is Christmas, hot chocolate and a toasty fire.

Joy is BMW finally turning off the embarrassing blue kidney lights on the i8.

The Ultimate Driving Machine

Amen.
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      01-09-2012, 06:34 PM   #65
jjojo2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bimmerjph View Post
Glad to see the Ultimate Driving Machine is back. I don't think they should have used the GTS in the commercial though, because we didn't get it here. So then most people will just think its an orange 3 Series coupe with a big spoiler on the back, instead of a stripped down M3.
I don't think that matters at all--the fact that it's a BMW drifting and burning rubber on a nationally televised TV commercial speaks VOLUMES!!!
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      01-09-2012, 06:35 PM   #66
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Where did people get the idea that BMW EVER made a sports car? Let alone some kind of "pure" or "hardcore" one? That was never what BMW was about. BMW is about making the ultimate driving machine, which means the ultimate tool to drive to the grocery store, to pick up the kids OR to carve up a canyon. The reason I've loved the 3 BMWs I've owned (E36, E90 and E82) and plan on buying many more is because you never find yourself in a situation where you think "Damn, I wish I had brought my other car." A BMW is like a Swiss Army knife, appropriate for any situation.
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