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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BIMMERPOST Universal Forums > General BMW News and Cars Discussion > BMW M GmbH Announces New Model Category! The M Performance Automobiles Range



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      01-15-2012, 02:20 PM   #221
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Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!
This allows BMW to milk more money out of it's customer, especially in emergng markets who don't know any better (and it's established ones, who only care about a name), so hopefully, hopefully they have more money to fund balls out M cars.

Already, Audi has an R8 with two (or even 3 engine options if you count the TDI v12 show car) engines. And a rumored R4, and where is BMW's answer? Already, Mercedes has established 2 AMG versions of the S Class, a CL class and it's AMG versions, a SL and it's AMG versions, and and SLS (which M Division wish that they could build their own special car). And where is BMW's answer? I mean the SL is probably more iconic than the 3 series, and has the genes to prove it...

Hopefully, BMW is taking a page out of Porsche's book, and you'll see the fruits of this strategy.
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      01-15-2012, 06:03 PM   #222
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Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
But as it was mentioned earlier in the thread, now that there's a M-Performance Line, BMW can now return to its heritage with the M-cars, instead of trying to please everyone. Instead of loading them up with technogadgets and such, they can leave those to the M-Performance Line and focus exclusively on performance. Perhaps the next generation M3 will return to its raw visceral lightweight heritage that it was once renown for.
I do not agree with this at all. Based on BMW's past actions:
1) BMW never acknowledged that M is loosing its edge. So why fix something that is not acknowledged.
2) The M Gmbh is a small division. The resources are spread out to focus on a lot more projects. M used to focus on a handful of cars and even less engines. Look at them now, they are everywhere. Talk about resource dilution which inherently brings less focus and less solid products.
3) The M cars (especially the M3) have always proved themselves on the track, in GT series. Name a series that BMW fully committed the e9x to.

BMW in the past years has shown no interest in keeping M Gmbh as a race oriented group that would build 2-3 terrifying machines.

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Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
I wouldn't use Porsche as a comparison model because I'm willing to bet the farm that BMW has way more overhead than Porsche (# of facilities, employees, etc), not to mention that it would have significantly lower margins on their cars given Porsche's stratospheric pricing. But even Porsche has been accused of the destroying their heritage with the Cayenne and Panorama!
Porsche is the best example, as it is a small firm that faced extinction by building only the 911. The 911 profit margin is extremely thin as the Porsche's R&D is VERY expensive due to "passion" engineering. We all know that passion and profit do not mix.

Porsche decided to build other models to allow them to survive. I was among the nay sayers when the Panamera and Cayenne came to light. However, they showed their true intentions when the 911 (997 and 991) turned out to be true to the pedigree and shut all of us up.

As much as the Cayman has great potential to be better than the 911, Porsche will never take it to that level. This is what I call sticking to your heritage and taking a loss just to preserve your hard core followers.

So why can't BMW build 1, 3, 5, x series for the masses and give M to the fanatics? They are big enough to afford this plan.

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Originally Posted by Bunkei View Post
We have to understand that BMW is a business first. A great heritage means very little if the company who created it goes out of business. We'll see if you're right about the pricing for the next-generation M cars, although it is worth mentioning that the new M5 is cheaper than its predecessor from what I remember.
BMW will stay in business whatever M exists or not. That's actually the point I am trying to make. BMW are using M not to survive, but to "pad" their profit at a calculated expense. In reality M Gmbh is such a small entity, that it barely impacts the balance sheet. Its existence was to satisfy a small market and create a "soul". BMW decided to stick it up and turn M into profit making machine. However, they did not have to "whore out" M.

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      01-16-2012, 12:07 AM   #223
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Time will tell all. It's impossible to "whore" out something that most of the american population cannot afford. There's nothing wrong with BMW using M to increase profits; that's what they're supposed to do. We'll see what the next-generation M cars will bring.
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      01-16-2012, 10:31 AM   #224
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
M has history and core meaning. If you are going to make a lessor 3-series than an M3 and call it an M, well... wtf.
I feel the same way. Why would you ever put an M badge on a non M car? I truly believe that BMW dropped the ball on this one. I understand that companies wan't to make money but there are other ways to do it. There is no need to destroy the legacy and heritage of the M to make an extra buck.

I bought my M3 in Germany and I can remember how proud they were in regards to their M lineup. They kept on saying how these M cars were so different and special from their regular lineup. I guess that was just a bunch of nonsense.

They could easily have created a different performance package for the regular lineup instead of ruining the M brand. The good thing is that we do have choice on what to buy next time.
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      01-16-2012, 11:24 AM   #225
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Think of BMW M Performance Automobiles giving the M cars equipment and technology they refuse to on the current M cars.

Four Wheel Drive on an M3 and M5 Please? No....That is why the X-M's exist. Diesel Power? Would work in Europe but not commercially viable in other parts of the world.
If you take the X6 M50d and the BMW M550dxDrive what you have is individuality , A performance car with many talents , All wheel drive , Performance and thanks to the diesel - efficiency. These are euro-centric cars aimed at customers who would like an M but when all factors are considered it can be out of their reach and not financially viable.

The M550dxDrive will also be available as a Touring , as M are not yet to commit to an M5 Touring even though there is enthusiasm for such a model.
Given the state of the European market and their diesel priority , it is though that between the Sedan and Touring. The Touring is expected to be the better seller which BMW will judge to see if there is further demand for an M Touring.
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      01-16-2012, 11:55 AM   #226
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[quote=SCOTT26;11158856]Think of BMW M Performance Automobiles giving the M cars equipment and technology they refuse to on the current M cars.

QUOTE]

I think I know what you're saying--the point of the new M performance line is to allow certain technologies exclusive to ///M to show up in a non M car. But I have to ask...isn't that kind of the point of having the M series? To keep certain things exclusive to ///M, which is supposed to represent the craziest and maddest BMWs? What is the reasoning of having the ///M brand if it isn't easily distinguishable, from a performance standard, than the other "regular" models in the lineup?

You've just made the point being echoed here by so many on the board. By pushing that technology downstream, you are in effect diluting the ///M brand.
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      01-16-2012, 12:08 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3XTR3M3 View Post
I think this sucks and waters down the M brand. Every BMW is going to have an M badge on it. The cars we laughed at which slapped an M before the numeric designation like M750iL are coming true.

Unless this opens room for the real M cars to go balls to the wall and break away from the luxury market grip to become more hardcore sports cars, then I can't see ANY good coming from this to M enthusiasts or the M brand. M ALL THE THINGS!
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      01-16-2012, 12:09 PM   #228
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[quote=dmboone25;11159031]
Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
Think of BMW M Performance Automobiles giving the M cars equipment and technology they refuse to on the current M cars.

QUOTE]

I think I know what you're saying--the point of the new M performance line is to allow certain technologies exclusive to ///M to show up in a non M car. But I have to ask...isn't that kind of the point of having the M series? To keep certain things exclusive to ///M, which is supposed to represent the craziest and maddest BMWs? What is the reasoning of having the ///M brand if it isn't easily distinguishable, from a performance standard, than the other "regular" models in the lineup?

You've just made the point being echoed here by so many on the board. By pushing that technology downstream, you are in effect diluting the ///M brand.
No one has seen the next-generation M cars, so I don't know how this assumption can be made. Besides, I thought too much technology is what is keeping the M cars from being the "driver's car" as they once were.

It isn't the technology that separates M cars from the rest, but rather the driving experience, right?
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      01-16-2012, 12:11 PM   #229
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Why is everyone saying that there will "M" badges on every car? 335iM will most likely not have the iconic "M" emblem like the M3/M5/etc. I don't think anyone is going to confuse the two.
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      01-16-2012, 02:23 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tobbep View Post
I feel the same way. Why would you ever put an M badge on a non M car? I truly believe that BMW dropped the ball on this one. I understand that companies wan't to make money but there are other ways to do it. There is no need to destroy the legacy and heritage of the M to make an extra buck.

I bought my M3 in Germany and I can remember how proud they were in regards to their M lineup. They kept on saying how these M cars were so different and special from their regular lineup. I guess that was just a bunch of nonsense.

They could easily have created a different performance package for the regular lineup instead of ruining the M brand. The good thing is that we do have choice on what to buy next time.
Absolutely agreed.
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      01-16-2012, 02:54 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Bunkei
Why is everyone saying that there will "M" badges on every car? 335iM will most likely not have the iconic "M" emblem like the M3/M5/etc. I don't think anyone is going to confuse the two.
Have you not seen the X6 diesel M video. The badge is blurred but you can clearly make out the full M insignia colors.
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      01-16-2012, 03:02 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCOTT26
Think of BMW M Performance Automobiles giving the M cars equipment and technology they refuse to on the current M cars.

Four Wheel Drive on an M3 and M5 Please? No....That is why the X-M's exist. Diesel Power? Would work in Europe but not commercially viable in other parts of the world.
If you take the X6 M50d and the BMW M550dxDrive what you have is individuality , A performance car with many talents , All wheel drive , Performance and thanks to the diesel - efficiency. These are euro-centric cars aimed at customers who would like an M but when all factors are considered it can be out of their reach and not financially viable.

The M550dxDrive will also be available as a Touring , as M are not yet to commit to an M5 Touring even though there is enthusiasm for such a model.
Given the state of the European market and their diesel priority , it is though that between the Sedan and Touring. The Touring is expected to be the better seller which BMW will judge to see if there is further demand for an M Touring.
No disrespect but come on, this isn't that difficult to understand. Everyone mostly agrees with BMW making more money on this, just use an alternate designation. I've said it three times on this board and on the M5board. If you must use M simply alter it somehow, e.g. MD OR MX for diesel or AWD.

Truthfully, im disappointed but I'll buy a diesel AWD 550Mxd (my preferred designation) if you bring it to the states simply because I think the new Ms are going too be soft anyways. Why pay the premium for HP and torque you can't use if you can't even feel or hear it.
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      01-16-2012, 03:38 PM   #233
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To all those who say that anything that's not a REAL ///M shouldn't get the ///M badge: if you were to purchase a day-to-day F30 aside from your ///M3, would you deliberately not choose the new optional ///M brakes or the nice and thick rimmed ///M wheel JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BADGED ///M?
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      01-16-2012, 03:41 PM   #234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
To all those who say that anything that's not a REAL ///M shouldn't get the ///M badge: if you were to purchase a day-to-day F30 aside from your ///M3, would you deliberately not choose the new optional ///M brakes or the nice and thick rimmed ///M wheel JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BADGED ///M?
From what I can tell, people are mainly taking issue with "M" being used in the model name (and thus appearing on the back of the car).

M-badged parts and the MSport package have obviously been available for a long time now.
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      01-16-2012, 03:46 PM   #235
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Originally Posted by Danconia View Post
If you must use M simply alter it somehow, e.g. MD OR MX for diesel or AWD.
As far as I am aware, that's exactly what they plan to do. However, there will also be non-AWD, non-diesel M Performance models that carry the M designation. There is the rumored M135i, for example. Note, however, that the "i" is still there (which is the gasoline equivalent of the "d").

Quote:
Truthfully, im disappointed but I'll buy a diesel AWD 550Mxd (my preferred designation)
Rumor suggests it will be M550xd, so its almost exactly as you would prefer. I suppose having the M first might somehow make it less acceptable.
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      01-16-2012, 04:23 PM   #236
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[quote=Bunkei;11159097]
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Originally Posted by dmboone25 View Post

No one has seen the next-generation M cars, so I don't know how this assumption can be made. Besides, I thought too much technology is what is keeping the M cars from being the "driver's car" as they once were.

It isn't the technology that separates M cars from the rest, but rather the driving experience, right?
Perhaps that's true, and maybe I focused too much of my response on the technology portion of the current M lineup.

You are more accurate in your response by mentioning the superior driver's feel of a proper ///M car--and I completely agree with that statement. For instance, my 2008 135, with JB4 and other bolt ons was very fast in a straight line. But it was no comparison to the feeling that driving my dad's Z4MC provided. The Z4MC was more engaging, more of a thrill, better in every bend, and significantly more special.

My overall point is that whatever seperates M cars from regular BMWs should stay in the Ms. Whether that's technology based, engine based, lightness, whatever. If 40% or 50% or whatever % of that M specific feel or technology is what BMW determines what this BS M performance model should contain, I think overall that it is a dilution of the brand.
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      01-16-2012, 04:48 PM   #237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
To all those who say that anything that's not a REAL ///M shouldn't get the ///M badge: if you were to purchase a day-to-day F30 aside from your ///M3, would you deliberately not choose the new optional ///M brakes or the nice and thick rimmed ///M wheel JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BADGED ///M?
To answer your question I would not do it. I personally think it looks cheesy as everybody knows it is not an M. If you want aftermarket brakes buy some Brembos and keep your dignity.
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      01-16-2012, 05:26 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel
Quote:
Originally Posted by Danconia View Post
If you must use M simply alter it somehow, e.g. MD OR MX for diesel or AWD.
As far as I am aware, that's exactly what they plan to do. However, there will also be non-AWD, non-diesel M Performance models that carry the M designation. There is the rumored M135i, for example. Note, however, that the "i" is still there (which is the gasoline equivalent of the "d").

Quote:
Truthfully, im disappointed but I'll buy a diesel AWD 550Mxd (my preferred designation)
Rumor suggests it will be M550xd, so its almost exactly as you would prefer. I suppose having the M first might somehow make it less acceptable.
Yes but I first and foremost state to use an alternative designation. Knowing that BMW has made up their mind I ask that they use the M designation more as the "i" "x" or "d" to give some further differentiation from a non "M Performance Automobile."

This can be done without utilizing the Motorsport colors and merely using the letter M.
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      01-16-2012, 09:49 PM   #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danconia View Post
Have you not seen the X6 diesel M video. The badge is blurred but you can clearly make out the full M insignia colors.
Really? Interesting, but diesel does make sense in an SUV that heavy. I still think it's unlikely that they will be using the "M" insignia on the M Performance cars, but we'll see.
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      01-17-2012, 05:23 AM   #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by advantage20 View Post
To all those who say that anything that's not a REAL ///M shouldn't get the ///M badge: if you were to purchase a day-to-day F30 aside from your ///M3, would you deliberately not choose the new optional ///M brakes or the nice and thick rimmed ///M wheel JUST BECAUSE THEY ARE BADGED ///M?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
From what I can tell, people are mainly taking issue with "M" being used in the model name (and thus appearing on the back of the car).

M-badged parts and the MSport package have obviously been available for a long time now.
The pretention behind it is that some M car owners here do not appreciate the fact that a non-M product is badged M and therefore sucks from the M aura, thus diluting the quality and exclusivity of "real" M vehicles.

If this is the actual issue (preserving M's quality and heritage), then the same reasoning should apply to M badged sporty options & accessoires (brakes, steering wheels, seats, door sills...) which shouldn't be available on regular vehicles because they are...regular vehicles and because their quality and aspect do not always match those coming from a real M car (the M Sport's steering wheel doesn't exactly look like the M3 wheel, the M sport rims are not as light, the new M brakes available on the F30 are certainly not as strong...). But if offering diverse M equipment on basic vehicles is acceptable, then putting an M logo on the trunk lid of a vehicle which, though not a real M, has been developped by M and tweaked to offer significantly higher driving qualities, is also acceptable.

If these discontent people are separating these 2 issues, on the one hand accepting that an M Sport 318d (purely image product) is named so and gets plenty of M badges in the cabin, on the rims...just not on the trunk lid, and on the other hand disapproving an M badge on the trunk lid of an M Performance M335i (though closer to a real M vehicle than an M Sport 318d), then I argue that these pretentions are not based on "preserving M's quality, heritage and image" but simply on preserving their own image and ego of sporting the M logo exclusively on their own trunk lid. It is all right to want to avoid triviality and stand out when you buy the 'real deal' (even more so when you pay a big cheque), but if this is the main issue, we shouldn't be talking about heritage and tradition but merely about the right to an upmarket image earned by putting in the required cost. If however heritage is the main issue, then be consistent and disapprove every item that's badged M aside from real M hardcore vehicles and which hurt M's quality and tradition, at least as much as you disapprove your own vehicle's image being diluted by lower range vehicles wearing the M badge on their back, as performant as they might be. And naturally, don't drive a 1M or an M3 because M has long ago 'sold out' on basic 116i or 320d M Sport.

It should be clear though that BMW Motorsport is not a confidential racing team but a globally growing sub-brand which logically offers a whole bunch of products and accessories: hence hardcore M vehicles in first place, but also M Sport image vehicles, M accessories available even on non-M Sport vehicles (wheel...), and all the more, a range of M Performance products which without being hardcore M vehicles have a decent edge over regular models, are actually developped with M's engineering expertise and thus legitimately deserve a name and therefore a badge in association with M.

Last edited by advantage20; 01-17-2012 at 09:11 AM.
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      01-17-2012, 09:44 AM   #241
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The pretention behind it is that some M car owners here do not appreciate the fact that a non-M product is badged M and therefore sucks from the M aura, thus diluting the quality and exclusivity of "real" M vehicles.
Maybe for a select few, but I guess I am just ignoring them since the ship sailed on that argument long ago. BMW has been offering MSport vehicles with M badges throughout the car for... well for a long time now - I believe since the E30 days. So there are plenty of BMW products with M's on them that are not actual M3s or M5s, or what have you. I really don't think that point is lost on many at all. There are perhaps a few. Again, just ignore them since they are clearly ignorant of the facts.

As far as I can tell, though, a far greater number of people who are taking issue with the new line of M Performance vehicles are very much aware of these already existing M products. Their argument is that the new lineup and naming scheme is taking it one step too far. Is it hair splitting? I suppose one could argue that. I honestly am pretty neutral on the whole issue myself. But the fact remains that this is a new strategy for BMW and M, and I can see some substance to both sides of the debate.

If I have any issue, it would not be with the marketing side, but rather a question of keeping the brand values alive and the actual viability for traditional M vehicles as we know them as things go forward. I am the first to acknowledge that there has been a systematic "softening" of the M brand (if you will) over the decades. Every new model is more accessible than that before it. But, what I don't want to see is a complete break from the philosophy of offering the hardest-core model that can be built profitably. The reall concern is, if in the future everyone buys this new M440i (say) instead of an M4, then how long can we expect them to even build an M4? Not long. Instead, maybe eventually what they would have marketed as a 435i (say) just gets renamed to M440i, and what would have been called the M440i is now an M4. So where is the M4? It is either gone, or maybe its now a very low production vehicle like an M4 GTS. I am not saying it will happen, I am just saying its yet another concern to put on the pile of concerns about the brand that has been stacking up recently (M SUVs when they said they'd never build them, forced induction when they said they would stay N/A, Ms with mildly tuned engines from series vehicles, etc, etc).
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      01-17-2012, 05:49 PM   #242
thedm
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If what I've been reading on this thread is true, then this will go one of two ways.

1. They will put the ///M badge along with the series name in a way indistinguishable from the real M's and confuse the average consumer, further diluting the brand.
2. They will put the ///M badge, but it will not be in true M fashion. As in, the badge location, size, placement, etc. will be different enough that both average people and enthusiasts will both know the distinction.

Depending on how this is going to play out, I think this is beneficial for BMW to bring in some more sales to focus on their true M division. There are a lot of people out there who want M-like performance without the price tag. Maybe they just want SOME of the soul, since they aren't the type to fully track their cars all the time anyway. I think it fills a great in-between segment that the "-is" was trying to awkwardly fill.

I think some people taking issue with this new range are the ones that are insecure that their true M's will be confused with "mass M's". If you can spread motorsport heritage a little more to the masses, then why not? The "true M" owners and enthusiasts (all of us) are the ones that know the real M's anyway. Are the real M owners scared that this new category will actually be a lot of bang for the buck? Just a thought.

I don't think BMW is abandoning their heritage, as I've seen some mention already. They have produced some fantastic cars, but maybe they haven't performed as well as their ancestors, relative to their time. The M3 being used for RLL racing is doing well, no? I honestly don't think BMW would abandon and dilute the M brand just to make a buck. I think they know that the exclusivity and heritage of the brand is what really powers BMW because ///M is the soul. I don't even have an M3, but I am really happy with my 328i because I know that it's granddaddy is the M3. If there was no M division, I don't think I would've considered BMW when buying a car.

They really need to shorten their designations though. "335is" was already too many numbers and letters IMO. Can you imagine "M108374XDSASD AWD"?

Last edited by thedm; 01-17-2012 at 06:00 PM.
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