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      01-02-2012, 08:21 PM   #1
BrianMN
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No oil degradation after a weekend of 285* Oil Temps

I guess this goes to show Mobil1 0w40 is quite resilient.

This oil sample was sitting around since last spring from a PCA weekend at Road America, and I finally got around to sending it in to Blackstone, where I try to send a sample after most oil changes.

The specs for this oil:
-Mobil 1 0w40; total of 2000 miles; apx. 350 track miles (Brand new oil before track)
-30/70 antifreeze:water, with RP Purple Ice
-80* Ambient temps
-30 minute track sessions; sustaining 285* oil temp for 3 laps followed by 1 cool down lap, then repeat. Peak oil temp of 290 in a few runs.

-335 with 45k miles FBO; no meth, no extra oil cooler.

Overall the oil shows no signs of fatigue or degradation from heat; which has me rather surprised. Good nonetheless

Since this event last spring, I've added an AR Oil cooler (which did practically nothing to help temps) and also meth. Now without meth, temps stay down at roughly 275; but with meth it stays down to 265*

Cheers!


OIl Report by MDM Enterprises, on Flickr
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      01-02-2012, 08:32 PM   #2
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Pretty cool; wonder if the OEM is similar, may do the testing after my next session.

Thanks for the data
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      01-03-2012, 11:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yandyr View Post
Pretty cool; wonder if the OEM is similar, may do the testing after my next session.

Thanks for the data
Yeah for sure! I really like the data that can come from oil analysis...unfortunately most of the top synthetic oils are very high-quality so we don't see many shortcomings,breakdowns or loss in viscosity from them over a normal oil change period. It is quite surprising that the oil could stand up to this weekend of roughly 150 minutes of 285* temps.

It'd be great to see how the OEM Castrol performs, as well as others such as LiquiMoly, RP, etc.
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      02-03-2012, 10:38 PM   #4
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Nice! Good to know it stands up to high temps, I've been using it in Phoenix for the past few years.
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      02-04-2012, 08:35 AM   #5
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Curious about the leaded fuel comment on the report - are you concerned about contaminating/plugging the catalytic converter, or does the amount of fuel used not cause any problems?
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      02-04-2012, 11:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrianMN View Post
Overall the oil shows no signs of fatigue or degradation from heat; which has me rather surprised. Good nonetheless

Since this event last spring, I've added an AR Oil cooler (which did practically nothing to help temps) and also meth. Now without meth, temps stay down at roughly 275; but with meth it stays down to 265*

Cheers!
Well this is good news, since I am currently using Mobil 1 0W40, and plan to use it at the track. I previously used total oils for this car, and this is my first time using Mobil 1. So far so good, but the track is obviously the ultimate test. I perviously used total 10W50 (racing oil) for the track, aond 0/5W-30 for the street.

Brian, since you are interested in oil temps, you might want to read up on the N54, and how it handles oil temps (page 42-51)-->

http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...8&d=1165592709

I'm currently using the 1M/N55/335IS water pump, with a non oem whaler thermostat. My cruising oil temps now hover at 210F instead of 245F. However the track will tell if this route is a good way of managing oil temps.
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      02-05-2012, 08:34 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Well this is good news, since I am currently using Mobil 1 0W40, and plan to use it at the track. I previously used total oils for this car, and this is my first time using Mobil 1. So far so good, but the track is obviously the ultimate test. I perviously used total 10W50 (racing oil) for the track, aond 0/5W-30 for the street.

Brian, since you are interested in oil temps, you might want to read up on the N54, and how it handles oil temps (page 42-51)-->

http://www.e90post.com/forums/attach...8&d=1165592709

I'm currently using the 1M/N55/335IS water pump, with a non oem whaler thermostat. My cruising oil temps now hover at 210F instead of 245F. However the track will tell if this route is a good way of managing oil temps.
Thanks; I've already read that pdf many moons ago. If you are using 10w50 in attempts to lower your temps; I'd suggest you read up a bit more on oil's weight vs. thermal properties. Using an oil thicker than what BMW intended is going to hurt you more than help you.

Based on your beliefs in the other thread you started; I think you are not understanding cooling capacity idea vs. thermostat range concept.

The water pump might provide additional benefits; but in my extensive track experience my water temps rarely get above 210; especially with meth.

Regarding the thermostat- For crusing, the lower-temp thermostat might help keep temps lower, and that scenario makes sense. However, where temps become a higher is no road courses; where water/oil temps rise very high very fast.

Let's just say that a baseline for oil temps is 265*.
With a stock oil and water thermostat; we can agree that both thermostats are 100% open when oil temps are 240*. Now; if the thermostats were to open 20* sooner, that would not keep the oil temps cooler whatsover. They might stay cooler for another 15-30 seconds; but within 10 minutes of track use: the oil temps will be 265* no matter what thermostat is used in the engine.

I'd like to see more documentation showing the 1M water pump is significantly superior. If so I'd definitely put it in. It's kinda hard to get objective data with this though; so we almost have to have BMW Published docs to provide details.
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      02-05-2012, 08:42 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DieselDiner View Post
Curious about the leaded fuel comment on the report - are you concerned about contaminating/plugging the catalytic converter, or does the amount of fuel used not cause any problems?
Yep, Leaded fuels can clog up a cat very fast. I had to pound out a clogged HFC on an EvoX after only 300 miles on the odometer from leaded fuel.

For this car I don't have cats; so that's not an issue. The only other part that leaded fuel can harm is the O2 sensors; which is definitely a risk. I only run leaded gas 12-15 times a year for track events; and so far my O2 sensors are still functioning fine
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      02-05-2012, 11:27 PM   #9
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I'd like to see more documentation showing the 1M water pump is significantly superior. If so I'd definitely put it in. It's kinda hard to get objective data with this though; so we almost have to have BMW Published docs to provide details.
Firstly, Brian, the M1 water pump has to be stronger than ours. It has a different part number, and cost almost $200 more. If you read the doc, I posted, you would see where the pump for the N52 is rated at 7000L/Hr or 400 watts, while ours is at 9,000L/Hr, and pulls 600 watts. There should be a slight increase in pump capacity, and watts with the M1 pump.

Lastly, I just wanted you to re-read the doc, to drive home a point that I think you have missed about oil temps. Here are the main points:

1. We have high oil temps because the turbo's gasses can reach 1,500 deg, and the oil, and water both are diverted to cool them.

2. The ECU has 4 total cylinder head temp targets to choose from, and majority of the time it targets 108C, the eco mode, as we all know. 108C cylinder head temps, or 240F pan oil temps. Because the ECU decides the oil temps to maintain, and 99% of the time, is in fuel economy mode, we won't get anywhere on the track, until someone figures out how to force the ecu to acknowledge the fact you are trying to race your car.

3. water pump has several pre-programmed operating modes to choose from, and the ECU communicates with it, and the thermostat to decide our car's oil temps in real time.
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      02-05-2012, 11:56 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by Turkeybaster115 View Post
Firstly, Brian, the M1 water pump has to be stronger than ours. It has a different part number, and cost almost $200 more. If you read the doc, I posted, you would see where the pump for the N52 is rated at 7000L/Hr or 400 watts, while ours is at 9,000L/Hr, and pulls 600 watts. There should be a slight increase in pump capacity, and watts with the M1 pump.

Lastly, I just wanted you to re-read the doc, to drive home a point that I think you have missed about oil temps. Here are the main points:

1. We have high oil temps because the turbo's gasses can reach 1,500 deg, and the oil, and water both are diverted to cool them.

2. The ECU has 4 total cylinder head temp targets to choose from, and majority of the time it targets 108C, the eco mode, as we all know. 108C cylinder head temps, or 240F pan oil temps. Because the ECU decides the oil temps to maintain, and 99% of the time, is in fuel economy mode, we won't get anywhere on the track, until someone figures out how to force the ecu to acknowledge the fact you are trying to race your car.

3. water pump has several pre-programmed operating modes to choose from, and the ECU communicates with it, and the thermostat to decide our car's oil temps in real time.
As I said; We need to get objective data showing that the 1M water pump will produce significant benefits. Also as I said; I absolutely hope it does produce results; and I will buy one in a heartbeat if it does....so I'm not just trying to be a negative nancy.

You are absolutely correct that the DME tries to target 240* oil temps; that is nothing new and nobody is arguing that.

In fact, I would LOVE my oil temps to stay at 240*. Hell, even 250* would be nice.

The argument is this: no matter what the DME requests: the cooling hardware on the engine simply cannot keep the temperatures below 265-280* on the track. The thermostat makes absolutely no difference in the ability to reduce temps in this range, period. If the thermostat stayed only 50% open at 280*, that would be a different story. But it doesn't; it's 100% open at 240* oil temps.

This is really a simple concept.
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      02-06-2012, 09:46 AM   #11
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In fact, I would LOVE my oil temps to stay at 240*. Hell, even 250* would be nice.
You can accomplish 250F with the Stett Stg2 OC at the track. Street temps will drop to ~210F.
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      02-06-2012, 11:30 AM   #12
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You can accomplish 250F with the Stett Stg2 OC at the track. Street temps will drop to ~210F.
Absolutely doubt it. Maybe at a little Autocross course or something, but not a "normal" roadcourse

Even with AR Secondary Oil cooler AND meth, oil temps still linger at 265.

The only solution that seems to be 'good enough' is the ER dual-core Oil cooler setup...

Last edited by BrianMN; 02-06-2012 at 11:44 AM.
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      02-06-2012, 12:03 PM   #13
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Quote:
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Absolutely doubt it. Maybe at a little Autocross course or something, but not a "normal" roadcourse

Even with AR Secondary Oil cooler AND meth, oil temps still linger at 265.

The only solution that seems to be 'good enough' is the ER dual-core Oil cooler setup...
we're talking about 20min sessions, not AutoXs. What are you basing your "only good enough solution" info on? The data we've collected suggests otherwise.
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      02-06-2012, 01:19 PM   #14
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we're talking about 20min sessions, not AutoXs. What are you basing your "only good enough solution" info on? The data we've collected suggests otherwise.
You can have a 60 minute session on a primarily 3rd gear course and keep oil temps at 250* no problem. The oil temp issue comes into play when you're on long, fast tracks with an average speed of 90mph or more. (It always puts things into perspective when you calculate average mph)

Average speed for a normal driver in a normal sports car:
Laguna Seca - 69mph
Willow Springs and Sebring (Known for being VERY high speed tracks) 85mph

The two main tracks I go to:
Road America- 100mph
BIR- 96mph

This should help understand the differences in engine demands and the heat created.

I have no doubt you have good objective data to back up your oil cooler working to keep temps down to 250*...and that is great to hear. The setup you have is just not enough for some other people in more demanding circumstances.

I'm basing the "Good enough" criteria off of a system that can bring my otherwise 285* temps down to say 250* with meth. That would be good enough for me; and if there is a kit on the market that *might* be able to do it; it's the ER Dual core system.

Since the secondary oil cooler I have on did practically nothing; I'm going to venture to say that the replacement core that Stett sells will do close to nothing as well.

Please dont' think I'm bashing on the Stett OC; I have actually purchased other Stett products and am happy with them. It's just that the OC is not enough to meet the demands.
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      02-06-2012, 03:51 PM   #15
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I'm looking at my data in trackmaster, average speed at Pocono IMSA (full course): 92mph. 30minute session yields no more than 250F w/STETT stg2. This will no doubt vary by driver level and no doubt there are plenty of drivers out there that will push much harder that what my data above logs. None of the other tracks in this area yield similar avg speeds for comparison.

As long as you're qualifying your statement that the ER dual core is the 'only one that seems to be good enough' to apply to your level of driving, then we're golden For some of us, the STETT stg2 kit has already proven sufficient.
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      02-06-2012, 04:43 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
I'm looking at my data in trackmaster, average speed at Pocono IMSA (full course): 92mph. 30minute session yields no more than 250F w/STETT stg2. This will no doubt vary by driver level and no doubt there are plenty of drivers out there that will push much harder that what my data above logs. None of the other tracks in this area yield similar avg speeds for comparison.

As long as you're qualifying your statement that the ER dual core is the 'only one that seems to be good enough' to apply to your level of driving, then we're golden For some of us, the STETT stg2 kit has already proven sufficient.
Peter- Please don't think I'm calling you out or questioning your abilities or knowledge. Your past posts show you have many track days under your belt and a fair amount of general knowledge.

First off, I'm not even sure that the ER Oil cooler will keep temps at 250...especially without meth. I'm just saying that if there is a system capable of it; that would the one. It would appear the next option is to add more oil capacity. Perhaps bring the oil up to 10 or 12b quarts.. I've toyed with the idea of adding a 3qt Accusump; but just have never gotten around to it.
I don't know what the conditions of your track days were like that would bring your temps up to 300* and then allow your temps to stay at 250* for an all-out run. Perhaps the Stett Oil cooler really did bring your temps down from a repetitive 300* to 250* in the same conditions. All I'm saying is I doubt it.

I'm going to be replacing the OEM oil cooler core with an overly large Setrab core; so essentially that will be identical to the Stett OC kit with an additional (but small) Setrab oil cooler via the AR Design OC Kit. What I"m betting is that my oil temps will go from 265 to 260; given an 80* day at the same track, at the same power level. (FBO, 12psi with meth). Obviously I would love to say that the Setrab replacement core fixed it and brought the oil temps down to 250, but I do not see how that is possible.

Brian

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      02-06-2012, 07:44 PM   #17
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Looking forward to seeing your data with the Setrab core. All I'm saying is that you obviously have a plan but you just need the data to validate your theory. If it works, great, if it doesn't then at least we know that when we start pushing our e90s as much as you do we'll hit that barrier.
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      02-06-2012, 10:26 PM   #18
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This is really a simple concept.
Here's an even simpler concept. You think temps rise fast at the track? Have you ever had your water pump fail? When it fails, which will happen to you real soon, your navi screen instantly indicates this. Next, your oil temps then go from 230F to 285F in 2, that's right, 2 seconds!! You will then start to smell burn't coolant coming from your hood, and driving your car, will be impossible.

My point? The fact that your oil temp is at 240F, and not moving much at any given moment, is because the water pump is continuously pumping 9000L/Hr, through your cooling system. Even when you shut off your car, your water pump still runs. I know the tendency is to get stuck on oil temps, and oil coolers, but when, your water pump fails, you will know what I'm talking about, and why I'm currently obsessed with it.
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      02-06-2012, 10:30 PM   #19
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Here's an even simpler concept. You think temps rise fast at the track? Have you ever had your water pump fail? When it fails, which will happen to you real soon, your navi screen instantly indicates this. Your oil temps then go from 230F to 285F in 2, that's right, 2 seconds!! You will then start to smell burn't coolant coming from your hood, and driving your car, will be impossible.

My point? The fact that your oil temp is at 240F, and not moving much at any given moment, is because the water pump is continuously pumping 9000L/Hr, through your cooling system. Even when you shut off your car, your water pump still runs. I know the tendency is to get stuck on oil temps, and oil coolers, but when, your water pump fails, you will know what I'm talking about, and why I'm currently obsessed with it.
Thanks; but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing??
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      02-06-2012, 10:33 PM   #20
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Thanks; but that has absolutely nothing to do with what we were discussing??
Yes it does. The water pump, and thermostat determine the oil temperature. Know why dinan cars do good at the track? Is it because of the massive oil cooler that comes with the kit?, or is it their reprogramming of your ecu that re-maps the water pump? If you say oil cooler, then you are just the type of customer they live on, buying useless $1,500 oil coolers.
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      02-06-2012, 10:48 PM   #21
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Yes it does. The water pump, and thermostat determine the oil temperature. Know why dinan cars do good at the track? Is it because of the massive oil cooler that comes with the kit?, or is it their reprogramming of your ecu that re-maps the water pump? If you say oil cooler, then you are just the type of customer they live on, buying useless $1,500 oil coolers.
Ummm, they don't do well at the track, so that is inadmissable?

Regardless- I suggest you write down an inventory of what people (and I) believe, and what you and we/I agree on, and what we do not agree on.

You're mixing up these arguments; and forgetting what is actually being debated.

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