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      03-07-2012, 01:47 PM   #89
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I wouldn't mind another Z4M, the last ones with the S54 were a ture blast to drive.

For now anyhow I'm glad they're not rolling out with a X3M just pointless. Now they just need to focus away from all these dummed down M vehicles.
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      03-07-2012, 03:30 PM   #90
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Maybe I'm mistaken about the potential size of the market, but I don't know of a single high-powered mid-sized ute. Certainly, the high-powered full-size ute category is ripe with competition from the likes of the X5M, ML63, GL63, and Cayenne Turbo, but where are the mid-size equivalents? I guess they'll soon be upon us with the X3 M35i and the QS5.

Because of its sportier profile, I totally get making a high-power version of the X4. The Macan will be right up the X4M's alley, as would any high-power version of the Evoque.
That's exactly why there's a market for it. No one is there yet.
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      03-07-2012, 03:33 PM   #91
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Does that mean that BMW will not make an X5M or X6M and relegate those two SUVs to just the M Performance range after this generation?
I think he just means there will be a gap between the E70/E71 X5/X6 M and the F15/F16 X5/X6 M. So, durring that period, a short run of F25/F26 X3/X4 M could be just what BMW needs to keep the profits rolling into M Division. You could do just an X4 M, but if you can make more money by spreading the cost over two models, then that will obviously make a better business case.

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I agree, this is pretty much what I also said in another thread. BMW probably doesn't want to use the tri-turbo being developed for the new M3
Yeah, it seems that unlike with the X5/X6 M vs. the M5/M6 debuting the engine in an SAV first might not work with their marketing strategy for the medium sized high performance entries. I suppose it makes sense as I could really see Bimmerpost blowing up if the engine went to an SAV first, whereas no one cared too much about it by the time the M5 and M6 arrived. Everyone had already vented about the M SUVs and turbo Ms and such.

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...and they can't use the N54 like the did in the 1M coupe unless they also make the X3M and Z4M limited production models.
They can't use the N54 because it won't give them the performance they need for an M branded vehicle in this class. ~340hp would be fine for an M35i, but not nearly enough for a true M (I use the word "true" loosely here as we are talking about an SUV after all
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      03-07-2012, 04:23 PM   #92
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Disappointed there won't be an X3M, at least for a while. I think it'd be a good seller, and could offer better handling and performance than the X5M since it would be much lighter. BTW, if you don't like M SAVs, that's fine...just don't buy one. There are valid reasons for an X3M to exist for those of us who want the practicality of a smaller SUV and the performance and handling of a sports car. As much as I love my 2012 X3 35i M Sport, which is an awesome ride, I'd still take more power, even better handling and cooler looks. I'd get one if it is ever released.
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      03-07-2012, 04:35 PM   #93
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Thanks, Scott.



Does that mean that BMW will not make an X5M or X6M and relegate those two SUVs to just the M Performance range after this generation?

He means when the new X5 and X6 F15/F16 will come there will be no more X M model for some time, so it would be nice if this provisional gap could be covered by the X3 M.
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      03-07-2012, 04:42 PM   #94
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Yay. Maybe my MCoupe will depreciate slower for another few years.
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      03-07-2012, 04:53 PM   #95
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many questions. some answers.

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I think he just means there will be a gap between the E70/E71 X5/X6 M and the F15/F16 X5/X6 M. So, durring that period, a short run of F25/F26 X3/X4 M could be just what BMW needs to keep the profits rolling into M Division. You could do just an X4 M, but if you can make more money by spreading the cost over two models, then that will obviously make a better business case.

Yes if you take the X5M and X6M. Both have made a lot of money for BMW M.
So they will be replaced in the next generation F15 and F16 concepts.
What form they will take it is too early to know as they are confined to paper at the current time.

BMW SAV's are huge sellers and that is why there will be an X4 and an X2 to compliment the full range. An X4M cannot be ignored because the potential is there especially in light of the BMW X6M.
With the luxury car market set to expand to 1 million units by 2015 and leading that growth will be the main BRIC countries , BMW amongst others will be making sure that they are highly competitive in that segment and that is why you have just seen a Bentley SUV - despite its appearance you cannot deny the potential for this car - it will sell and in huge numbers globally.
In Beijing at the end of april - Lamborghini are also bringing an SUV Concept in response to China becoming lamborghini's biggest market. .
Bentley are also taking their SUV to Beijing after Geneva. So every premium manufacturer will be highly competitive in order to get their share of those 1 million units.

One SUV you will not see is a Rolls-Royce. As the chairman said yesterday that it does not fit within the ethos of the brand. Something you could argue about Bentley. But bentley is owned by VW and they do not like segments to slip through their fingers so easily.

For BMW though it is known that a 7er can not just sustain itself in that high end market for BMW. So they are working on proposals that again can be spun off incoming modular architecture which could see a future variants on the 7er. Two favourites under intense discussion from the selected few involves a new update on the previous CS Concept again as a four door. and even a high end SAV a RR alternative a Super luxury BMW X7.


Yeah, it seems that unlike with the X5/X6 M vs. the M5/M6 debuting the engine in an SAV first might not work with their marketing strategy for the medium sized high performance entries. I suppose it makes sense as I could really see Bimmerpost blowing up if the engine went to an SAV first, whereas no one cared too much about it by the time the M5 and M6 arrived. Everyone had already vented about the M SUVs and turbo Ms and such.

Yes but there would still be an outcry if BMW did bring out more X-M's.
I am bracing myself for the 3er GT and X4 launch and the FWD 1er CST.
The hatred is going to flow.


They can't use the N54 because it won't give them the performance they need for an M branded vehicle in this class. ~340hp would be fine for an M35i, but not nearly enough for a true M (I use the word "true" loosely here as we are talking about an SUV after all

The N54 will of course be joining the S65 and be put out to pasture very soon. It's ran its course.
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      03-07-2012, 09:52 PM   #96
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For BMW though it is known that a 7er can not just sustain itself in that high end market for BMW. So they are working on proposals that again can be spun off incoming modular architecture which could see a future variants on the 7er. Two favourites under intense discussion from the selected few involves a new update on the previous CS Concept again as a four door. and even a high end SAV a RR alternative a Super luxury BMW X7.
An X7 and a 7-series GC would be epic (and insanely huge).
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      03-07-2012, 11:55 PM   #97
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Great. Please don't turn BMW to Mercedes. Great decision.
that be a good thing! mercedes once made all their cars look alike and BMW said they would never do that. then audi did it. bmw stuck to that.

now bmw makes all their cars look alike, where as Mercedes and Audi want differentiation between their models.


bmw has jumped the shark. the new 3 is HIDEOUS, the 5 looks good, the new 7 looks obnoxious and ginormous.

i would take a benz AMG over any car BMW makes except the m3.

c63amg < m3
e63amg > M5
S63amg > 760?
ml63amg > x5m
cl63/sl63 > m6

gone are the days of BMW being "better handling". go drive a new e63 amg and honestly tell me that it can't dance as well if not better than any bmw.
In fortunately Mercedes still uses the DC cheap interiors. BMW looks and feels better on the road!
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      03-08-2012, 01:14 AM   #98
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x3M had a lot of interest in that.
If I am reading correctly between the lines the X3M will be back in the next body change. Which is why we are getting the X4M now. M has to recoup the money invested in the vehicle. Easier to recoup the money invested and make money over a 7 year span vs a 3.5 year span. Exception being the 1M.


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      03-08-2012, 02:50 AM   #99
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z4m would have been nice to see too bad
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      03-08-2012, 09:21 AM   #100
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The Z4M would have been the truest M. I cannot belive that they are not making it. The last Z4M was more pure than even the M3. What a shame.
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      03-08-2012, 11:36 AM   #101
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For BMW though it is known that a 7er can not just sustain itself in that high end market for BMW. So they are working on proposals that again can be spun off incoming modular architecture which could see a future variants on the 7er. Two favourites under intense discussion from the selected few involves a new update on the previous CS Concept again as a four door. and even a high end SAV a RR alternative a Super luxury BMW X7..
I would LOVE to see an X7. Any idea on when they might release one if it ever does come to fruition?

The day that spy shots of an X7 come out, I will be very happy
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      03-09-2012, 10:12 PM   #102
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I remember hearing that rumor, but I hope the Z2 models don't turn out to be FWD. I also recall Scott recently mentioned how much demand there was worldwide for the original Z3. While the current Z4 has moved significantly up market since then, there should certainly be demand for a back-to-basics, smaller, RWD roadster/coupe to take over where the Z3 left off. Hopefully the Z2 will be that car.
I hope you are right.

And it has been 10 months but I found Scott's old thought at the time.

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- Z2[*]Z2 Roadster as entry level choice for a compact and sporty roadster, FWD.
Hopefully things have changed.

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      03-10-2012, 02:53 AM   #103
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I hope you are right.

And it has been 10 months but I found Scott's old thought at the time.



Hopefully things have changed.

- J
I hope so. Other things have changed in the last year, like the cancelation of the X3M, the M3 GT, and the Z4M as well as the greenlighting of the F80 M3. That said, a RWD Z2 would have to be built on a brand new platform, and that might be prohibitively expensive. Otherwise, BMW could use the Mini and 1-series GT platform for a cheap FWD Z2.
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      03-10-2012, 08:41 AM   #104
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That said, a RWD Z2 would have to be built on a brand new platform, and that might be prohibitively expensive. Otherwise, BMW could use the Mini and 1-series GT platform for a cheap FWD Z2.
I'm curious, aa, Why do you believe they'd need a new platform for a RWD Z2? It seems to me they could simply use the platform that will underpin the other F2x passenger cars.

This older post from SCOTT hints that we could see a three roadster lineup, with a new RWD entry squeezing in between the FWD Z2 and RWD Z4.

http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=40

To allow this, those two could be renamed Z1 and Z5 respectively, making room for a Z3. It seems a little far fetched, but it makes some sense.
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      03-10-2012, 01:45 PM   #105
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I'm curious, aa, Why do you believe they'd need a new platform for a RWD Z2? It seems to me they could simply use the platform that will underpin the other F2x passenger cars.

This older post from SCOTT hints that we could see a three roadster lineup, with a new RWD entry squeezing in between the FWD Z2 and RWD Z4.

http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=40

To allow this, those two could be renamed Z1 and Z5 respectively, making room for a Z3. It seems a little far fetched, but it makes some sense.
I didn't realize that BMW was considering two roadsters to slot in below the Z4 -- I remembered the Scott post that you linked to, but had forgotten some of the details. That being the case, your scenario makes complete sense...

...except for the naming convention, which is a conversation for another time
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      03-11-2012, 11:46 AM   #106
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I didn't realize that BMW was considering two roadsters to slot in below the Z4 -- I remembered the Scott post that you linked to, but had forgotten some of the details. That being the case, your scenario makes complete sense...

...except for the naming convention, which is a conversation for another time
Well there is hope yet. That's the good news. I am not too concerned with the naming convention. More in performance, price, and if it's FWD or RWD.

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      03-11-2012, 01:18 PM   #107
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I'm curious, aa, Why do you believe they'd need a new platform for a RWD Z2? It seems to me they could simply use the platform that will underpin the other F2x passenger cars.

This older post from SCOTT hints that we could see a three roadster lineup, with a new RWD entry squeezing in between the FWD Z2 and RWD Z4.

http://f20.1addicts.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=40

To allow this, those two could be renamed Z1 and Z5 respectively, making room for a Z3. It seems a little far fetched, but it makes some sense.
Yes there was initial debate on how to progress the Roadster family further on the level as the BMW X-line which will by 2017 incorporate X1-X6 , a very good strategic choice as BMW X models are highly profitable , a decision on a full luxury X7 will be made over the next few months. Interesting for the X7 is that BMW are not necessary looking for a super X5 in their brief and so design ideas are ranging from typical SAV proportions to very sweeping roof lines some ideas are very much influenced by the BMW RFK proposals but using that outline combined with the commanding look of an SAV to really give that BMW individuality, and a product that shows very sporting intentions but in a concept for the luxury market.

Which started as a 2 model race Z2 and Z4 has opened the possibilities , especially in regards to the FWD architrecture shared with MINI which can be used to provide even greater economies of scale. The excellence that BMW and MINI can run alongside each other and not necessary collide is evident in both the highly successful MINI Countryman and BMW X1.

One strategy amongst many is the proposal of even/odd indicating body style - kind of like the X line. Z1-Roadster , Z2-Coupe (Based with MINI FWD alignment) , Z3-Roadster , Z4 Coupe (RWD based F20 modular alignment) and Z5 Roadster , Z6 Coupe (RWD based mid-sized modular platform).

One thing is clear that there is intentions to bring back Z3 as in every case of evolution the next Z4 will become slightly larger and will retain a folding hardtop , making the move to Z5 inevitable. The Z3 allows an entry competitor retaining a softtop and a Coupe with much less weight and become a more sportier option.
Of course that is the debate and the creative and marketing process and as yet nothing is confirmed.

One thing is clear that design direction for whatever the new Z Roadster family will take , is influenced from the 2011 BMW Vision ConnectedDrive Concept Car.
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      03-11-2012, 08:15 PM   #108
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Which started as a 2 model race Z2 and Z4 has opened the possibilities , especially in regards to the FWD architrecture shared with MINI which can be used to provide even greater economies of scale. The excellence that BMW and MINI can run alongside each other and not necessary collide is evident in both the highly successful MINI Countryman and BMW X1.

One strategy amongst many is the proposal of even/odd indicating body style - kind of like the X line. Z1-Roadster , Z2-Coupe (Based with MINI FWD alignment) , Z3-Roadster , Z4 Coupe (RWD based F20 modular alignment) and Z5 Roadster , Z6 Coupe (RWD based mid-sized modular platform).

One thing is clear that there is intentions to bring back Z3 as in every case of evolution the next Z4 will become slightly larger and will retain a folding hardtop , making the move to Z5 inevitable. The Z3 allows an entry competitor retaining a softtop and a Coupe with much less weight and become a more sportier option.
Of course that is the debate and the creative and marketing process and as yet nothing is confirmed.

One thing is clear that design direction for whatever the new Z Roadster family will take , is influenced from the 2011 BMW Vision ConnectedDrive Concept Car.

Good news. Thank you for sharing.

- J
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      03-12-2012, 03:57 PM   #109
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...except for the naming convention, which is a conversation for another time
I'm totally with you on that. If you look at a latter post of mine in that thread, I suggested Z0, Z2, Z4. But that too is just wacky.

I sort of like SCOTT's thinking, in that roadsters could be odd numbered while two-seat coupes could be even. But, that still doesn't match up with their two-door, four-seat counterparts (which are all even). Maybe they should just go with Z2, Z4, Z6 for the two seaters (FWD, RWD, RWD), and save Z1, Z3, Z5 for a new line of four door roadsters and coupes with rear suicide doors and marginal rear seats, sort of like a Mazda RX8 combined with an Audi TT coupe or Porsche 911. Oh and lets not forget the Z3 GT - the first ever five seat, roadster-coupe hatchback.
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      03-21-2013, 09:20 PM   #110
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"Also, with the current X3, we won't bring an M version", can I take this as BMW doesn't satisfy with the current X3 themselves neither ?
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