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      12-15-2005, 11:43 PM   #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E90-4life
To add to what was said about there not being a 335Xi model...

The 335 is more of an enthusiast car than a core 3er, I'd think of it as somewhat along the lines of the E46 33OI ZHP, a sporty road thrashing 3
Yes, I think your speculation is going in the right direction. Having thought about this upcoming 335i, I'm convinced that it will be an M-sport version combined with a 310hp engine. Despite what some of you have been saying, this model will not likely come cheap. Remember the E46 ZHP - it came with a premium of about $2500 in Canada; the engine offered a mere 10hp increase. The rumoured 335 will offer about 55hp increase or 21.5% more hp + the M-sport goodies. If the current M3 competition model is priced at a premium of $4000 (same horsepower as regular M3), then I would suggest that the premium for the upcoming 335 M-sport model will be even more, perhaps $5000 +.
As for E90 model lineup, we presently in Canada have the 323, 325 and 330. In 2004, we had the 320, 325, 330 and 330 ZHP. The USA market had all but the 320. So, I believe the 335 will be an additional model to the E90 lineup, to be sold at a significant premium. Don't forget that the new M3 with over 400hp V8 will be going further upmarket, so this leaves a gap for the 335 to fill.
I, for one, can't wait to test drive what will surely be a thrilling machine.
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      12-16-2005, 01:29 AM   #112
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really not sure if 335i is filling any M3 's gaps........does it have SMG III ?
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      12-16-2005, 08:28 AM   #113
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I doubt they would offer the '335' as a special ZHP model with the bi-turbo. That would be a lot of trouble for a specialty model. I can see the fit as a temporary substitute for the E46 M3 if the real V8 model is delayed. Many sources now have indicated that NA is going to a 328/335 lineup. It would be incredibly lame to call a milktoast upgrade of the N52 a '335'. I will be happy with an upgrade to 270 hp, but it should not be retitled a 335 if that is the case.
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      12-16-2005, 09:06 AM   #114
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Two Quick write ups:

"On sale in Europe since fall 2004, the baby Bimmer packages many 3-Series components in a trim 4-dr hatchback body style. The mainstay U.S. version is likely to be a 120i with a 160-hp 2.0-liter 4-cyl and a low-$20,000 starting price. But there's talk that BMW might bring over a 6-cyl 130i with around 258 hp and a perhaps an eventual "M1" with no less than 310 hp. There's also speculation that the 1-Series will spawn a small coupe and/or convertible in the 2007-08 timeframe. BMW is known to be working on these spinoffs, but hasn't confirmed plans so far."

"BMW is going to manufacture a hot M-Power version of itís new 1-Series to take on its rivals the Golf R32, Alfa 147 GTA, & hot new Ford Focus RS. BMW is also planning to use a 3.0 Litre straight six-cylinder engine that will rev to at least 8500 Rpm, with drive through a seven-speed SMG (Sequential Manual Gearbox) driving the rear wheels. Expect 310 Bhp from the 3.0 litre, with kerb weight of under 1500 kg. 0-60 Mph is estimated to be 5.8 secs, with top speed limited to 155 mph. With lightweight engine, with dual-Vanos variable timing system and individual throttle butterflies for each cylinder."

If BMW can put this engine in a high $20's low to mid $30k car why not a e9x 3 series car.
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      12-16-2005, 09:12 AM   #115
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310 bhp in a 1 series should do 0-60 a lot quicker than 5.8 sec. But this is sounding like an upgraded NA N52 with a higher redline allowing 300bhp+ rather than the bi-turbo. Tine/Speedfreak.... Ohh noooo!
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      12-16-2005, 08:22 PM   #116
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335 or whatever?

Whats the big thing about getting power from a "real engine" such as the M cars and comparing turbos to cheap , fake imitation power. Some people like NA engines and some people do not, that is why I hope they give us a choice if it comes to pass. I for think that turbocharging is great technologically and if BMW goes that way in the US I would be the 1st to get a second mortgage. I think we are approaching a new era where big displacement HP like in the 70s will become yesterdays news. turbos satisfy the thirst for power while providing greater effeciency. Trust me the mindset of Americans will change to deisels and turbos with our dwindling supply of cheap oil. And yes that kid with the cheap Japanese turbo will smoke you off the line with your big cubic inches while not breaking his bank. (its just a status thing I think). BMW has reached the limit with tricks to get more HP without displacement. I have watched friends spend thousands on chips, intake, cams and heads to get 20 Hp, while others spend a fraction on stock turbo cars and got over 100 Hp. Guys don't knock turbos and it will not make BMWs cheap. I dont consider a 40K car cheap, I dont consider the Bi turbo Bently that BMW did cheap either.
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      12-17-2005, 06:56 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mundo74
Whats the big thing about getting power from a "real engine" such as the M cars and comparing turbos to cheap , fake imitation power. Some people like NA engines and some people do not, that is why I hope they give us a choice if it comes to pass. I for think that turbocharging is great technologically and if BMW goes that way in the US I would be the 1st to get a second mortgage. I think we are approaching a new era where big displacement HP like in the 70s will become yesterdays news. turbos satisfy the thirst for power while providing greater effeciency. Trust me the mindset of Americans will change to deisels and turbos with our dwindling supply of cheap oil. And yes that kid with the cheap Japanese turbo will smoke you off the line with your big cubic inches while not breaking his bank. (its just a status thing I think). BMW has reached the limit with tricks to get more HP without displacement. I have watched friends spend thousands on chips, intake, cams and heads to get 20 Hp, while others spend a fraction on stock turbo cars and got over 100 Hp. Guys don't knock turbos and it will not make BMWs cheap. I dont consider a 40K car cheap, I dont consider the Bi turbo Bently that BMW did cheap either.

Most Americans don't follow Formula1, so they really don't understand BMW's technology. Most American card Compainer Ford & GM pacify their customer base with adaquate cars.

I work for Ford, but Drive a 2004 330ci specifically because of Formula1 derived technology and refinement within their cars.

Turbocharging has a realiability stigma related to it here in the states. All the old hillbillies refer to the even older saying: "No replacment for displacment" when most of them (if not all) wouldn't be able to tell if their Ford was supercharged or not in the butt dyno.


BMW has extensive knowledge and work with Turbocharging... it would be a grand idea to let them display their tech here in the states.

I'd love to see a 3.0 liter Bimm take on a 5.0 liter Mustang in a few street dynos...!
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      12-17-2005, 12:09 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mundo74
I dont consider the Bi turbo Bently that BMW did cheap either.
Volkswagen did Bentley
BMW did Rolls Royce
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      12-17-2005, 12:22 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garrett
Most Americans don't follow Formula1, so they really don't understand BMW's technology. ...
BMW has extensive knowledge and work with Turbocharging... it would be a grand idea to let them display their tech here in the states.

I'd love to see a 3.0 liter Bimm take on a 5.0 liter Mustang in a few street dynos...!

Agreed.

I still believe the day will come... and I look forward to that day.
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      12-17-2005, 01:46 PM   #120
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I don't know.
I hope we never see a f.i. gasoline BMW.

Honestly.......I don't think we need to.
If you take into concideration direct injection, variable compression, electromagnetic valves and all the other unknowns that BMW has, the tricks have just begun. With the introduction of every new gas engine there is an increase in rpm. We all know that more rpm directly translates to more horsepower. As far as BMW's F1 technology, the best of it has come from their naturally aspirated 3liter v10. A monster in it's own right. RPM approaching 20,000 and horsepower for days. Keep in mind that this is the same engine that the M5/6 was derived from.
Hondas 2liter S2000 had a 9000 rpm redline 240h.p. that's 120p/l genetlemen.
Even Ferrari is working on a 15000 rpm street machine, (possible ENZO replacement) with power on top of power.

So I don't think the day of N.A. are numbered just yet.
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      12-17-2005, 03:06 PM   #121
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The issue with a lot of increased RPM engines is that they don't deliver the torque at low RPMs. Short of a few street racers most of us drive torque everday. Granted, I could dride a S2000 with 240 Hp and a turbo with 200 Hp which gives me all torque at 2500 RPM and I will tell you the turbo has more power in everday driving. Most of us dont drive at 8K RPM ( that is why I dont spend money on chips.) That's what kills the RX-8 for me, that car begs for a turbo. I think that the biggest issue BMW will face for turbo relates to warranty and public perception of seeing a brand new bimmer on the side of the road because freaks like myself chipped it to death.

When you look at it the phrase "there's no substitute for cubic inches" I think it should be displacement. After all a turbo engine is really a larger displacement engine in a smaller shell. Yes I admire all the tricks as they further refine the internal cumbustion engine , but the laws of physics dictate that it starts with the mass flow of air and fuel to build power, either by a V8 or FI 4 or 6. (BMW please give us your 330d)

I hope the 335 is a turbo, its about time and I hope in 20 years I will be driving a turbo Hydrogen BMW.
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      12-17-2005, 03:47 PM   #122
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I hope it will be a 3.5 l R6 (310 hk 360 nm) how talks a lot after 5000 rpm and going mad at 7500 rpm !!
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      12-17-2005, 09:19 PM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LIKEWATER
I don't know.
I hope we never see a f.i. gasoline BMW.

Honestly.......I don't think we need to.
If you take into concideration direct injection, variable compression, electromagnetic valves and all the other unknowns that BMW has, the tricks have just begun. With the introduction of every new gas engine there is an increase in rpm. We all know that more rpm directly translates to more horsepower. As far as BMW's F1 technology, the best of it has come from their naturally aspirated 3liter v10. A monster in it's own right. RPM approaching 20,000 and horsepower for days. Keep in mind that this is the same engine that the M5/6 was derived from.
Hondas 2liter S2000 had a 9000 rpm redline 240h.p. that's 120p/l genetlemen.
Even Ferrari is working on a 15000 rpm street machine, (possible ENZO replacement) with power on top of power.

So I don't think the day of N.A. are numbered just yet.

Theres is a difference between Horsepower and usuable Horpsepower. Not to many people enjoy having to step so far into their engines at every stop light just to enjoy a little bit of acceleration. RPM's is not the answer, it a good excuss to get a lighter engine, but torque is what a motor is built around.

Nice to have gobs of torque at @1100 rpms. Turbo engine are NA, but with FI.
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      12-18-2005, 06:42 PM   #124
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Everyone's talking about the 335 having ~310hp, but how much torque is it going to have? I was wondering since we haven't seen any predicted figures on torque.
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      12-18-2005, 07:29 PM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flipmde786
Everyone's talking about the 335 having ~310hp, but how much torque is it going to have? I was wondering since we haven't seen any predicted figures on torque.
Simple really, because modern mass-production normally aspirated engines get at most 75-78 lb-ft per L of displacement.

So, 3.5L x 78 = approx 275 lb-ft, which is what the G35 and IS350 has.
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      12-18-2005, 08:50 PM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by visor
Simple really, because modern mass-production normally aspirated engines get at most 75-78 lb-ft per L of displacement.

So, 3.5L x 78 = approx 275 lb-ft, which is what the G35 and IS350 has.
I didn't know that calculation.

But that's the max possible torque, right? I was looking for specifics because I wanted to see if the 335 would be low on torque compared to G35 or IS350.
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      12-18-2005, 08:55 PM   #127
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mundo74
"because freaks like myself chipped it to death"................................l

Formula 1 cars are non turbo and make a little more than 1/3 torque as horsepower.
Example: 1000hp & 350lb.ft. torque
As torque is used to start motion, a little more than 1/3 is more then adequate.
Think of a Suzuki GSXR motor with double VANOS.
Sequential turbo systems are NOT new technology they have been around for more than a decade, VVT in comparison is.


To figure torque:
H.P. times 5252 = X divided by RPM

VVT systems like Double VANOS, (approx. 15%+) add to that number as well as produce torque curves according to the needs of the vehicle.
Making it possible to comfortably drive around the city using low rpm as well as race up the Autobahn using high rpm.
All the h.p. is used
All the rpm is used
All the torque is used
All in one car.
Without the high speed loss of breath or heat soak experienced from f.i.

Last edited by LIKEWATER; 12-18-2005 at 09:12 PM.
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      12-18-2005, 09:40 PM   #128
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1000 Hp, man that is entertaining. But we also have to look at the losses in an engine that goes up to the cube of speed. Formula 1 racers dont care about the cost of gas. I am not sure if all the exotic materials and processes could be duplicated for a mass production engine at a cost we could afford. The turbo technology has come a far way to the point that I wonder if the average Saab owner knows their car has a turbo, but enjoy brisk acceleration and fuel economy superior to other cars in its class. I bet it would cost a lot less to get extra ponies vs our BMWs. I drive a BMW for the balance and refinment it offers but I sometimes wish it had a bit more power. I think 300 Lb/Ft of Torque at 2500 RPM would be a blast, driveable on US roads and traffic, Smoke a few kids to the next traffic light (the old American traditiion) while enjoying the superior handling and not wringing the engine to RPMs that add noise and lowers practicality. The perfect NA engine would be one that gives you the Hp if you want at Rotary engine RPMs but give you the Torque of a Deisel or Turbo at low RPMs.
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      12-18-2005, 09:53 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fredtoo
I think we may have a translation issue here, as both belt driven Superchargers and exhaust driven Turbochargers are "Compressors".
My thoughts exactly...
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      12-19-2005, 12:57 PM   #130
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i sincerely hope it would be a turbo engine
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      12-19-2005, 08:23 PM   #131
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Aren't we supposed to be getting official info on the 328 and 335 now, as Tine has said many times? It's week #51...

Or is SpeedFreak right about the info coming later...

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      12-19-2005, 08:46 PM   #132
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The press release was recalled (new press text would be send) and embargo was extended - this is the latest info I've got from a jourmalist guy. BMW sent a fax to his editor.

The other two sources still claim BMW will bring "something" out on Dec 20.

I've also been told two cars are used in press visuals: one Sapphire Black and one Ultramairine Blue. A 335i petrol turbo and a diesel one: 30d. No ZSG mentioned. 320d, 330d, 325i, 330i and 335i are listed in the invalid PR. So no mention of 328i. That brings my (=Scott) and Speed's internal source into question.

I'll try to find out the exact date when the extanded embargo ends. Dec 20 had been the scheduled day, but now one source said it was postponed. I hope we will still see it in the week #51.

What a mess! :mad:

P.S.: Scott says a timing change in a scheduled PR usually mean: a leak (they have to release it earlier), or production problem (they have to postpone it), or a product change (they just have to edit it).

Last edited by Tine; 12-19-2005 at 09:35 PM.
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