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      03-20-2012, 11:23 AM   #1
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Thumbs up 335d evolve tuned 1st in the US

So when I first heard that VS motorsports was going to get the tool to flash the 335d locked ECU's I was ecstatic. Right away I told them I wanted it, and for us to get this going. I wanted to get before/after dyno's to see the gains

I scheduled up a for a dyno session over at a local dynojet shop that I'm familiar with. Unfortunately we weren't able to pickup the RPM signal so I ended up just going to a shop further out with a mustang AWD dyno that picked up RPM via a vehicle speed calculation.

Here is the basline dyno sheet. Conditions were after a 60+ mile drive there went straight on the dyno, was about 40deg, and shell fuel. The highest the car read was 214whp / 344wtq.




Couple days after the dyno I dropped off the car over at VS motorsports to get flashed. They have a great shop and I was really impressed. Matt over there hooked me up with some new grillzzzz, plate frame and a great deal for the tune. Also they let me borrow their shop 1987 e28 528e while they took out the d's brains. They had a couple unexpected complications due to the US DME being different then the EU DME, they handled everything well and kept me updated with all the details of what was going on. What did I care, I was rocking out in a e28 anyway lol.

Just my luck that I get the car back when we're having a snow storm so I wasn't able to push the car and see what it could do, but it was cruising just as before with no hicups at all, just as smooth as when I 1st drove off the dealer lot.





So now its 5 days after I picked up the car from VS and finally have some dry and open roads that I could play around on. I did a pull on the way to work in the morning. Car pulled great but I noticed a drop off in power up top.






I called up the shop I did the baseline dyno on and we got me scheduled in. I filled up with the same shell fuel as last time and drive over there after work. 60+ mile drive up there averaging 38mpg Same conditions as last time, also about 40deg, drive it right up to the dyno and they strap it down






And here are the results. Before and after graphs are on the sheet. The highest the car read was 251whp / 388wtq on the AWD Mustang dyno. Biggest gains were 40whp@3600rpm / 71wtq @3200rpm. Both of the best runs of the day are on the sheet.



Car felt great and was getting better MPG's but again that drop off in power that I noticed on the street was evident on the tune. Also when comparing dyno sheets from other 335d's the graph just seemed off. I talked this over with VS and they relayed the message over to Evolve, they agreed that it did seem off and evolve wanted get the car on a dyno jet.

Matt @ VS called up Dean's Performance out in St. Charles, IL and got me scheduled in. Hans over there is a great guy and hes built some of the fastest cars in the Chicago land area. He strapped down the car well and picked up the RPM signal via the crank.

Nothing on the car changed from the runs on the mustang dyno. We did runs with varying conditions, after a cool off, back to back, after letting it idle for a while, rolling into it a bit later, etc.

I have more runs, but I'm at work and don't have my laptop on me so I can't pull them up.



The car was definitely smoother on the dynojet and Hans was able to do all the runs starting at around the same point, also it became more evident of the drop off in power up top that I was experiencing, it seams that the dynojet has a much higher resolution than the Mustang. After the dyno I sent Matt @ VS the files and he discussed them with Evolve. Evolve did agree that the map was off and modified the tune on the car.

VS loaded up the files on Friday on my lunch break, I got to rock the e28 again, lol, and I picked up my car after work. Right away the car felt so much better, it was crisp and I definitely noticed a power bump on my butt dyno, the car didn't feel like it dropped off up op and just felt like an animal!



Evolve wanted to make sure the graph was improved so I got scheduled in to see Hans at Dean's Performance the following Monday. We did the same thing as before, a cooled down run, back to back, letting it idle, heck for 1 I opened up the air box just to see but there were no significant gains, was the same as the other runs, just louder, you really heard it sucking!

I have more runs but this was the best run of the day, I don't have my laptop so I cant pull them up.





I'm loving the tune now, Evolve has been great to deal with and have pride in their tunes to the point they will re tune and re dyno to make sure their customer are happy with the results.

VS Motorsports was also great to deal with, always gave me the heads up on what was going on and made sure that Evolve took care of us.

So anyway, everyone go call up VS and get your 335d's evolved!!!

http://www.vsmotorsports.com/

http://www.evolveautomotive.com/

http://www.deansperformance.com/






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      03-20-2012, 11:47 AM   #2
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That is A LOT of power.
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      03-20-2012, 11:49 AM   #3
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That is a crazy tune. Nice Work!
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      03-20-2012, 11:53 AM   #4
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That is good write-up and summary, thanks for sharing.

Not to be a buzz-kill, but since Evolve made the adjustments are you planning to take the car back to the first shop that did the baseline?

I am more interested to see the difference by comparison with the baseline and the 2nd dyno at a shop "independent" of VS/Evolve. Only this will tell you how much more Evolve was able to squeeze out of the tune. I am sure they got some nice gains out of the tune and with all due respect to VS and Evolve a dyno without a baseline at a shop they have a relationship with, is fine for reference, but it doesn't mean much to me.
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      03-20-2012, 11:55 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
That is good write-up and summary, thanks for sharing.

Not to be a buzz-kill, but since Evolve made the adjustments are you planning to take the car back to the first shop that did the baseline? I am more interested to see the difference by comparison with the baseline and the 2nd dyno. Only this will tell you how much more Evolve was able to squeeze out of the tune.
I'd be more interested in getting someone to take a stock 335d onto deans performances dyno jet. I wasn't happy with the mustang, barely any resolution on it.
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      03-20-2012, 12:12 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post
I'd be more interested in getting someone to take a stock 335d onto deans performances dyno jet. I wasn't happy with the mustang, barely any resolution on it.
As previously discussed, a dyno comparing someone else's stock car to yours after the tune is irrelevant IMO. Not to mention, this shop that you now all of a suddon perfer, has a relationship with VS, so it's not what I would consider an "independent" dyno, since there is a vested intererst among the parties. Heck for that matter there is a vested interest among everyone involved come to think of it.

I also don't understand why now you have a problem with the Mustang dyno. That wasn't mentioned before, well except you thought the hp/torque data was below your expectations, but that is no reason why not to like the Mustang dyno. A Mustang dyno is a perfectly fine tool to use to measure gains.

If VS/Evovle did squeek out more ponies after some tweaking it wiould be reflected on a follow-up on the Mustang dyno. THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO SEE and I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to do a follow-up dyno on the Mustang dyno, otherwise I only have the gains reflected on the follow-up dyno of 40 hp/71 trq to go by.

Last edited by cssnms; 03-20-2012 at 12:23 PM.
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      03-20-2012, 12:12 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
That is good write-up and summary, thanks for sharing.

Not to be a buzz-kill, but since Evolve made the adjustments are you planning to take the car back to the first shop that did the baseline?

I am more interested to see the difference by comparison with the baseline and the 2nd dyno at a shop "independent" of VS/Evolve. Only this will tell you how much more Evolve was able to squeeze out of the tune. I am sure they got some nice gains out of the tune and with all due respect to VS and Evolve a dyno without a baseline at a shop they have a relationship with, is fine for reference, but it doesn't mean much to me.
It's not ideal but since he has a baseline in mustang, first round map dyno in both mustang and dyno jet formats and a second map in dyno jet you can extrapolate what the curve would look like on either dyno from the deltas. If I (or someone else) had time we could plot it in excel just to see what the curves look like.

Looks pretty good to me.
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      03-20-2012, 12:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
It's not ideal but since he has a baseline in mustang, first round map dyno in both mustang and dyno jet formats and a second map in dyno jet you can extrapolate what the curve would look like on either dyno from the deltas. If I (or someone else) had time we could plot it in excel just to see what the curves look like.

Looks pretty good to me.
If you are going to base your purchase decision to spend $1k+ on a tune on an extrapulation between an "independent" dyno pull on a Mustang and a dyno pull on a dyno-jet at a shop with which the tuner has relationship, have at it, it's your money not mine.

Like I said, I understand there were likely some kinks to work out, seeing how this was the first US spec 335d to run the Evolve tune, but that is no reason to throw-out and discount a follow-up on an "independent" dyno where the original baseline and 2nd dyno were conducted after VS/Evolve made the adjustments. That is really the key data point that is missing; sorry if I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, YET.
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      03-20-2012, 12:30 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
If you are going to base your purchase decision to spend $1k+ on a tune on an extrapulation between an "independent" dyno pull on a Mustang and a dyno pull on a dyno-jet at a shop with which the tuner has relationship, have at it, it's your money not mine.

Like I said, I understand there were likely some kinks to work out, seeing how this was the first US spec 335d to run the Evolve tune, but that is no reason to throw-out and discount a follow-up on an "independent" dyno where the original baseline and 2nd dyno were conducted after VS/Evolve made the adjustments. That is really the key data point that is missing; sorry if I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, YET.
I'm not saying that at all. Believe me I'd love to have independent data preferably with the dyno files posted to eliminate any shenanigans but, to be honest the way you are harping on it seems kind of like you have an agenda.

They had an issue. They wanted to use a dyno they have experience with no harm there. You have the info albeit in different formats but, it's there.
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      03-20-2012, 12:34 PM   #10
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Heck, come to think of it, I know a guy running the JBD that had his car dyno'd on a dyno jet and according to that machine put down 332 whp, no baseline though. A week later he took his car to a different shop and did a dyno pull also on a dyno jet and the results were 30hp lower.

Point being different dyno's, different operators way different results, no baselines in either case, so no real way to judge gains. It is difficult to make an informed opinion on a tune based on a one-off dyno regardless of what the results say (good or bad).
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      03-20-2012, 12:40 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
They wanted to use a dyno they have experience with no harm there. You have the info albeit in different formats but, it's there.
I respectfully disagree. To prevent a conflict of interest and to remove any doubt or speculation, a dyno at a shop that is completely independent from the tuner is the preferred method, which is why I would very much like to see a 3rd dyno on the same mustang dyno.

One would think if they are confident in their tune that VS/Evolve would encourage a follow up dyno on the same mustang dyno. They could even show up and supervise if they have any concerns.
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      03-20-2012, 12:41 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Heck, come to think of it, I know a guy running the JBD that had his car dyno'd on a dyno jet and according to that machine put down 332 whp, no baseline though. A week later he took his car to a different shop and did a dyno pull also on a dyno jet and the results were 30hp lower.

Point being different dyno's, different operators way different results, no baselines in either case, so no real way to judge gains. It is difficult to make an informed opinion on a tune based on a one-off dyno regardless of what the results say (good or bad).
I agree one car is not enough of a sample group to make any concrete decisions.

But that said you have a tuned file in mustang (what the baseline is in) and Dynojet and the second tune in Dynojet You can back into what the new files curve would look like compared to the baseline.

It would be nice if the OP would post the files when he gets home.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
I respectfully disagree. To prevent a conflict of interest and to remove any doubt or speculation, a dyno at a shop that is completely independent from the tuner is the preferred method, which is why I would very much like to see a 3rd dyno on the same mustang dyno.

One would think that VS/Evolve woudl encourage if they are so confident in their tune. Heck they could even show up and supervise if they have any concerns.
Not when you're making changes to the map based on the info that dyno is feeding you. You want one that you've worked with before.
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      03-20-2012, 12:55 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post


Not when you're making changes to the map based on the info that dyno is feeding you. You want one that you've worked with before.
Not debating the need for the tuner to make adjustments at a shop/dyno of their choice, but I do not consider the results of the dyno beneficial in any shape or form (that's the whole point I am trying to make).

Point being after all of the changes/adjustment were made, a follow-up dyno on the same independent mustang dyno is in order, because without a 3rd follow-up independent dyno there is NOTHING to substantiate the claims that Evolve was able to squeeze out anymore hp/trq then was recorded on the 2nd follow-up dyno, unless of course you give the tuner's shop's dyno results any credit.

I do not doubt there were gains as a result of the Evolve tune, I am all for more tuning options for our 335d's, heck I have been preechiing it since I bought my car, and Evolve has an excellent repuation in Europe, but let's be real about this. Frankly I am surprised not more people are asking the same question.
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      03-20-2012, 01:24 PM   #14
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My hesitation is their location and the down time. What would happen if I need retune? I need to take the ECU out again and send it over. I do agree with cssnms having dyno before (stock) and after (after the last tune) on the same dyno is what I am buying.
I might wait for Dinan to come up with their tune if they ever do. For now I will just use the JBD.
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      03-20-2012, 01:27 PM   #15
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Hey cssnms. Check out my new tuning topic on this board and feel free to add to it in terms of what I should be asking them.

Thanks.
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      03-20-2012, 01:33 PM   #16
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i thought you can flash/remove evolve by yourself on a windows based laptop with a cable?

my buddy does that with his e46 M

if OP was able to obtain such a unit or take the tuner with him to the dyno (any dyno facility) wouldnt that dispell any issues with any variables of consistency since he'd then be able to run the car stock and tuned?

i think getting a new baseline on a dynojet will reveal there are less gains (since the mustang dyno reads low on the initial baseline) but there should still be tremendous gains, right?
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      03-20-2012, 01:44 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
As previously discussed, a dyno comparing someone else's stock car to yours after the tune is irrelevant IMO. Not to mention, this shop that you now all of a suddon perfer, has a relationship with VS, so it's not what I would consider an "independent" dyno, since there is a vested intererst among the parties. Heck for that matter there is a vested interest among everyone involved come to think of it.

I also don't understand why now you have a problem with the Mustang dyno. That wasn't mentioned before, well except you thought the hp/torque data was below your expectations, but that is no reason why not to like the Mustang dyno. A Mustang dyno is a perfectly fine tool to use to measure gains.

If VS/Evovle did squeek out more ponies after some tweaking it wiould be reflected on a follow-up on the Mustang dyno. THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO SEE and I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to do a follow-up dyno on the Mustang dyno, otherwise I only have the gains reflected on the follow-up dyno of 40 hp/71 trq to go by.
Dyno'ing a stock car on the same Dynojet I dyno'd on is absolutely not irrelevant. Stock cars may vary what, maybe 5hp? Irrelevant.

I have a problem with the mustang because as I mentioned there is basically no resolution on the dyno, which you can CLEARLY see how it varies on the dynojet.

Also, I dyno'd my M3 on that mustang before, I thought it was just something wrong with my car, the numbers did not seem right and my ECU logs showed the car was running much less boost than it usually did on the street. Didn't seem like the car was on a proper load either. Basically I'm not a fan of the dyno and the dyno operator on it. I was also out with a friend this weekend who is a local shop owner in the area, I showed him the differances and he also mentioned that he has heard people not liking that dyno and the graphs being odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
If you are going to base your purchase decision to spend $1k+ on a tune on an extrapulation between an "independent" dyno pull on a Mustang and a dyno pull on a dyno-jet at a shop with which the tuner has relationship, have at it, it's your money not mine.

Like I said, I understand there were likely some kinks to work out, seeing how this was the first US spec 335d to run the Evolve tune, but that is no reason to throw-out and discount a follow-up on an "independent" dyno where the original baseline and 2nd dyno were conducted after VS/Evolve made the adjustments. That is really the key data point that is missing; sorry if I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, YET.
If you're not happy with it than you do it. I've posted way more data and info than anyone else on this board so far. No you're not drinking the KOOL-AID, you're just on that HATER AID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Heck, come to think of it, I know a guy running the JBD that had his car dyno'd on a dyno jet and according to that machine put down 332 whp, no baseline though. A week later he took his car to a different shop and did a dyno pull also on a dyno jet and the results were 30hp lower.

Point being different dyno's, different operators way different results, no baselines in either case, so no real way to judge gains. It is difficult to make an informed opinion on a tune based on a one-off dyno regardless of what the results say (good or bad).
No shit a different dyno will have different results, it also depends what correction and smoothing factors were used. Now another STOCK 335d on the dynojet I dyno'd on with the same correction factors IS relevant, which is what I'd like to see at some point if there is another 335d in the area that would like to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
I respectfully disagree. To prevent a conflict of interest and to remove any doubt or speculation, a dyno at a shop that is completely independent from the tuner is the preferred method, which is why I would very much like to see a 3rd dyno on the same mustang dyno.

One would think if they are confident in their tune that VS/Evolve would encourage a follow up dyno on the same mustang dyno. They could even show up and supervise if they have any concerns.
There is no conflict of interest, Dean's Performance is a completely different shop than VS. They specialist in totally different cars. VS just like to use them probably because it is a good dyno with a good operator and fair rates. I wish I would have just gone there from the get go, but too late for that now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Not debating the need for the tuner to make adjustments at a shop/dyno of their choice, but I do not consider the results of the dyno beneficial in any shape or form (that's the whole point I am trying to make).

Point being after all of the changes/adjustment were made, a follow-up dyno on the same independent mustang dyno is in order, because without a 3rd follow-up independent dyno there is NOTHING to substantiate the claims that Evolve was able to squeeze out anymore hp/trq then was recorded on the 2nd follow-up dyno, unless of course you give the tuner's shop's dyno results any credit.

I do not doubt there were gains as a result of the Evolve tune, I am all for more tuning options for our 335d's, heck I have been preechiing it since I bought my car, and Evolve has an excellent repuation in Europe, but let's be real about this. Frankly I am surprised not more people are asking the same question.
I agree the number's aren't the best to go off of because I don't have the dynojet baseline, but if you compare the gains off of the mustang than off of my 2nd dyno there is around a ~60whp / ~ 90wtq gain. Also, that's not the biggest thing to look at, the biggest improvement is in the area under the curve. Look at how much tq the car gained through out the power band and the drop off that was fixed up up. You don't see those type of gains on any JBD car.

The most ideal thing would be to get a 335d to get on the dynojet I was on and graph all the numbers together.
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      03-20-2012, 01:49 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crazyinp View Post
My hesitation is their location and the down time. What would happen if I need retune? I need to take the ECU out again and send it over. I do agree with cssnms having dyno before (stock) and after (after the last tune) on the same dyno is what I am buying.
I might wait for Dinan to come up with their tune if they ever do. For now I will just use the JBD.
Yeah it kinda sucks not bieng local but if you overnight it back and forth you're not down too long. only takes I think a couple hours to load the tune.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Infamous View Post
i thought you can flash/remove evolve by yourself on a windows based laptop with a cable?

my buddy does that with his e46 M

if OP was able to obtain such a unit or take the tuner with him to the dyno (any dyno facility) wouldnt that dispell any issues with any variables of consistency since he'd then be able to run the car stock and tuned?

i think getting a new baseline on a dynojet will reveal there are less gains (since the mustang dyno reads low on the initial baseline) but there should still be tremendous gains, right?
Unfortunately our ECU's are locked so they can't use that cable . if you compare all the graphs you can still see a ~60whp / ~90wtq gain, and also a HUGE TQ gain through out the power band.
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      03-20-2012, 02:00 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post


Unfortunately our ECU's are locked so they can't use that cable . if you compare all the graphs you can still see a ~60whp / ~90wtq gain, and also a HUGE TQ gain through out the power band.
man that sucks! i agree though, huge gains under the curve throughout the rev band. looks good
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      03-20-2012, 03:21 PM   #20
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Concentric, 60/90 is very solid!
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      03-20-2012, 04:06 PM   #21
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Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post


If you're not happy with it than you do it. I've posted way more data and info than anyone else on this board so far. No you're not drinking the KOOL-AID, you're just on that HATER AID.
Nobody is hating, but that was catchy (HATER AID). Despite the fact that you did not adhere to the plan you announced during the on-set, but rather you now have come up with reasons why the first shop and dyno are no good, which it appears you were aware of before going to the shop, I guess that is neither hear nor there. I guess it's just to bad the original dyno baseline and follow-up were not done on a dyno-jet at a different shop.

I do apprecaite you going through the trouble of posting all of this information and it is informative to a certain extent. I am simply a consumer that is looking for unbiased data. And speaking of unbiased data, one may argue that because you received a discount on the tune it may otherwise precluded your review and thus your motivations from that of being unbiased.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post
No shit a different dyno will have different results, it also depends what correction and smoothing factors were used. Now another STOCK 335d on the dynojet I dyno'd on with the same correction factors IS relevant, which is what I'd like to see at some point if there is another 335d in the area that would like to.
Well I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I certainly will not base my decision to purchase this or any other tune for that matter on dyno results comparing two different cars same machine or not, esp on a dyno at a shop whereby the tuner has a business relationship, or at least until it can be supported on another dyno-jet at a shop that has no relationship with the tuner.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post

There is no conflict of interest, Dean's Performance is a completely different shop than VS. They specialist in totally different cars. VS just like to use them probably because it is a good dyno with a good operator and fair rates. I wish I would have just gone there from the get go, but too late for that now.
Don't kid yourself or anyone else for that matter, of course there is a conflict, it is a shop they have a business relationship with i.e. one that I am assuming they use with some regularity. This is not to suggest there is manipulation going on, but rather in an effort to remove any and all doubt it is best to conduct a dyno at a shop where there is NO business relationship between the tuner selling a product and the shop they hire to run the dyno.




Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post
I agree the number's aren't the best to go off of because I don't have the dynojet baseline, but if you compare the gains off of the mustang than off of my 2nd dyno there is around a ~60whp / ~ 90wtq gain. Also, that's not the biggest thing to look at, the biggest improvement is in the area under the curve. Look at how much tq the car gained through out the power band and the drop off that was fixed up up. You don't see those type of gains on any JBD car.
Not sure I follow.... "compare the gains off the mustang than off of my 2nd dyno... " What 2nd dyno are you referring to? The 2nd mustang dyno yielded a 40hp/71 trq gain, no?

And what data are you comparing against a JBD exactly? Are you referring to a dyno graph from a machine that not only does not have a baseline for your car, but it also does not have a JBD baseline to compare against?

It isn't exactly fair to compare two dyno graphs from two different machines/shops. Let's not forget, different dynos, different operators, weather conditions, cars etc, yield different results...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post

The most ideal thing would be to get a 335d to get on the dynojet I was on and graph all the numbers together.
Actually no, the most ideal thing would be to have an owner that does not have a vested interest that may otherwise feel an obligation to the tuner/shop to get a baseline dyno at an indy shop of their choice then do a follow up dyno after, like you were suppose to do.

That's all, I've said my peace. Drive safe, enjoy your tune I am sure it transformed your car. Hopefully we will start seeing more independent data on the Evolve tune from other consumers.

Last edited by cssnms; 03-20-2012 at 04:15 PM.
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      03-20-2012, 04:19 PM   #22
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why do they only dyno till like 4.5 rpm?
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