E90Post
 


TireRack
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > 335d evolve tuned 1st in the US



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      03-20-2012, 05:03 PM   #23
Concentric190
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Willowbrook, IL

Posts: 262
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1997 BMW M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW 335d  [0.00]
1995 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Nobody is hating, but that was catchy (HATER AID). Despite the fact that you did not adhere to the plan you announced during the on-set, but rather you now have come up with reasons why the first shop and dyno are no good, which it appears you were aware of before going to the shop, I guess that is neither hear nor there. I guess it's just to bad the original dyno baseline and follow-up were not done on a dyno-jet at a different shop.

I do apprecaite you going through the trouble of posting all of this information and it is informative to a certain extent. I am simply a consumer that is looking for unbiased data. And speaking of unbiased data, one may argue that because you received a discount on the tune it may otherwise precluded your review and thus your motivations from that of being unbiased.

Well I guess it's a matter of opinion, but I certainly will not base my decision to purchase this or any other tune for that matter on dyno results comparing two different cars same machine or not, esp on a dyno at a shop whereby the tuner has a business relationship, or at least until it can be supported on another dyno-jet at a shop that has no relationship with the tuner.

Don't kid yourself or anyone else for that matter, of course there is a conflict, it is a shop they have a business relationship with i.e. one that I am assuming they use with some regularity. This is not to suggest there is manipulation going on, but rather in an effort to remove any and all doubt it is best to conduct a dyno at a shop where there is NO business relationship between the tuner selling a product and the shop they hire to run the dyno.

Not sure I follow.... "compare the gains off the mustang than off of my 2nd dyno... " What 2nd dyno are you referring to? The 2nd mustang dyno yielded a 40hp/71 trq gain, no?

And what data are you comparing against a JBD exactly? Are you referring to a dyno graph from a machine that not only does not have a baseline for your car, but it also does not have a JBD baseline to compare against?

It isn't exactly fair to compare two dyno graphs from two different machines/shops. Let's not forget, different dynos, different operators, weather conditions, cars etc, yield different results...

Actually no, the most ideal thing would be to have an owner that does not have a vested interest that may otherwise feel an obligation to the tuner/shop to get a baseline dyno at an indy shop of their choice then do a follow up dyno after, like you were suppose to do.

That's all, I've said my peace. Drive safe, enjoy your tune I am sure it transformed your car. Hopefully we will start seeing more independent data on the Evolve tune from other consumers.
I'm sorry, did you miss my dyno graphs? I have before and after on a independent mustang where the car gained 40whp and 70wtq, then a retune for a bit more power and to smooth off the drop off in power up top, where the car gained an additional 20whp and 30wtq on a before and after dyno?

Please tell me how much lets say 10 different stock 335d's are going to vary in power on the same dyno, please, enlighten me! I'd REALLY LOVE to hear that one! LOL

Oh also, how is VS recommending cars to this shop going to affect the dyno #'s? Is the magic VS dyno fairy going to come around and tell the car to make more power? I have the raw data files from all the runs, and they are posted with the same correction factors. I'll map all 10 runs together when I get home.

If you don't see the difference in the graphs from a JBD tuned car and this, you shouldn't even be shedding any input in this thread!

Put the keyboard aside keyboard warrior.
__________________
///Andres
09 335d evolve tuned - 327whp / 490wtq -- 13.0@105
95 M3 Turbo - Built 3.0l s52, PTE74GTQ, AEM EMS & CDI
97 M3 NASA TTB build for 2014!
Concentric190 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 05:11 PM   #24
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

Sorry I did/cannot see the mustang dyno charts from my work pc. Am I to understand correctly that you have a 3rd dyno on the mustang after VS made adjustments and that 3rd dyno shows a 60hp gain?

And there is no need to get snippy young man. I am fully aware of what we are talking about and comparing here.
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 05:48 PM   #25
hotrod2448
grand poobah
 
hotrod2448's Avatar
 
Drives: E70 X5 SG, F10 535i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posts: 2,015
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 335d  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Sorry I did/cannot see the mustang dyno charts from my work pc. Am I to understand correctly that you have a 3rd dyno on the mustang after VS made adjustments and that 3rd dyno shows a 60hp gain?

And there is no need to get snippy young man. I am fully aware of what we are talking about and comparing here.
Oh come on man, you think you constantly repeating the same thing over and over isn't going to grate on someone's nerves? If you need this mustang dyno so bad why don't you offer to pay for it? We get it you don't trust this info drop it.

Again, we have a baseline, we have a dyno of the first map on that same dyno, we also have a dyno of that first map on a dynojet, you have a dyno of the revised map on that same dynojet. Provided the Op can verify the correction factor was the same for both on runs on the respective dyno you can figure out everything you need to know from this info. It's not rocket science. Quit acting like there is some conspiracy.

Last edited by hotrod2448; 03-20-2012 at 05:53 PM.
hotrod2448 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 06:17 PM   #26
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod2448 View Post
Oh come on man, you think you constantly repeating the same thing over and over isn't going to grate on someone's nerves? If you need this mustang dyno so bad why don't you offer to pay for it? We get it you don't trust this info drop it.

Again, we have a baseline, we have a dyno of the first map on that same dyno, we also have a dyno of that first map on a dynojet, you have a dyno of the revised map on that same dynojet. Provided the Op can verify the correction factor was the same for both on runs on the respective dyno you can figure out everything you need to know from this info. It's not rocket science. Quit acting like there is some conspiracy.
I really don't care if asking questions or pointing out facts that may or may not have an impact on the results grates on someone's nerves. This is not a sponsor paid advertisment, although it does come across a little a like one.

The data provided is fine for what it is but don't act like the information is anything other than a bunch of dyno graphs performed on different machines, by different operators etc, not mentioning they were performed by the tuner's preferred shop. If you believe applying the correction factor somehow provides you with the data you need to make an informed opinion on the matter, fine. And you're right, dynos are not rocket science, it is more of a voodoo science which is all the more reason why to stick with the same machine, operator and preferrably a shop that has no vested interest.

As for the mustang dyno I am not paying for anything, it's not my tune. I also didn't promise everyone that I was to get before an after dynos by an indy shop that has no affliation with VS. But all that doesn't matter to you and that's fine too, have at it.

In the interim I will wait for others to take the plunge and hopefully they can/will provide more data on the subject. I hope the Evolve tune does achieve the claimed gains, that would be great, I might buy it too, but waiting on more data.

Last edited by cssnms; 03-20-2012 at 06:29 PM.
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 06:26 PM   #27
EYE4SPEED
Ex-Quattro Driver
 
EYE4SPEED's Avatar
 
Drives: E90 335d M-Sport LCI
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Coast... of Michigan

Posts: 1,987
iTrader: (22)

Interesting read so far. I don't want to take sides here, but I would like to see a baseline vs. after tune on the same dyno. I don't care what model of dyno, the gain or loss is the determining factor.

We should all play nicely... the goal is to get the best tune for our cars. Great job to the OP for documenting the experience.
__________________
EYE4SPEED is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:27 PM   #28
taibanl
Brigadier General
 
taibanl's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

Posts: 3,571
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
As previously discussed, a dyno comparing someone else's stock car to yours after the tune is irrelevant IMO. Not to mention, this shop that you now all of a suddon perfer, has a relationship with VS, so it's not what I would consider an "independent" dyno, since there is a vested intererst among the parties. Heck for that matter there is a vested interest among everyone involved come to think of it.

I also don't understand why now you have a problem with the Mustang dyno. That wasn't mentioned before, well except you thought the hp/torque data was below your expectations, but that is no reason why not to like the Mustang dyno. A Mustang dyno is a perfectly fine tool to use to measure gains.

If VS/Evovle did squeek out more ponies after some tweaking it wiould be reflected on a follow-up on the Mustang dyno. THAT IS WHAT I WANT TO SEE and I would think it would be in everyone's best interest to do a follow-up dyno on the Mustang dyno, otherwise I only have the gains reflected on the follow-up dyno of 40 hp/71 trq to go by.
Dyno'ing a stock car on the same Dynojet I dyno'd on is absolutely not irrelevant. Stock cars may vary what, maybe 5hp? Irrelevant.

I have a problem with the mustang because as I mentioned there is basically no resolution on the dyno, which you can CLEARLY see how it varies on the dynojet.

Also, I dyno'd my M3 on that mustang before, I thought it was just something wrong with my car, the numbers did not seem right and my ECU logs showed the car was running much less boost than it usually did on the street. Didn't seem like the car was on a proper load either. Basically I'm not a fan of the dyno and the dyno operator on it. I was also out with a friend this weekend who is a local shop owner in the area, I showed him the differances and he also mentioned that he has heard people not liking that dyno and the graphs being odd.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
If you are going to base your purchase decision to spend $1k+ on a tune on an extrapulation between an "independent" dyno pull on a Mustang and a dyno pull on a dyno-jet at a shop with which the tuner has relationship, have at it, it's your money not mine.

Like I said, I understand there were likely some kinks to work out, seeing how this was the first US spec 335d to run the Evolve tune, but that is no reason to throw-out and discount a follow-up on an "independent" dyno where the original baseline and 2nd dyno were conducted after VS/Evolve made the adjustments. That is really the key data point that is missing; sorry if I am not drinking the Kool-Aid, YET.
If you're not happy with it than you do it. I've posted way more data and info than anyone else on this board so far. No you're not drinking the KOOL-AID, you're just on that HATER AID.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Heck, come to think of it, I know a guy running the JBD that had his car dyno'd on a dyno jet and according to that machine put down 332 whp, no baseline though. A week later he took his car to a different shop and did a dyno pull also on a dyno jet and the results were 30hp lower.

Point being different dyno's, different operators way different results, no baselines in either case, so no real way to judge gains. It is difficult to make an informed opinion on a tune based on a one-off dyno regardless of what the results say (good or bad).
No shit a different dyno will have different results, it also depends what correction and smoothing factors were used. Now another STOCK 335d on the dynojet I dyno'd on with the same correction factors IS relevant, which is what I'd like to see at some point if there is another 335d in the area that would like to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
I respectfully disagree. To prevent a conflict of interest and to remove any doubt or speculation, a dyno at a shop that is completely independent from the tuner is the preferred method, which is why I would very much like to see a 3rd dyno on the same mustang dyno.

One would think if they are confident in their tune that VS/Evolve would encourage a follow up dyno on the same mustang dyno. They could even show up and supervise if they have any concerns.
There is no conflict of interest, Dean's Performance is a completely different shop than VS. They specialist in totally different cars. VS just like to use them probably because it is a good dyno with a good operator and fair rates. I wish I would have just gone there from the get go, but too late for that now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Not debating the need for the tuner to make adjustments at a shop/dyno of their choice, but I do not consider the results of the dyno beneficial in any shape or form (that's the whole point I am trying to make).

Point being after all of the changes/adjustment were made, a follow-up dyno on the same independent mustang dyno is in order, because without a 3rd follow-up independent dyno there is NOTHING to substantiate the claims that Evolve was able to squeeze out anymore hp/trq then was recorded on the 2nd follow-up dyno, unless of course you give the tuner's shop's dyno results any credit.

I do not doubt there were gains as a result of the Evolve tune, I am all for more tuning options for our 335d's, heck I have been preechiing it since I bought my car, and Evolve has an excellent repuation in Europe, but let's be real about this. Frankly I am surprised not more people are asking the same question.
I agree the number's aren't the best to go off of because I don't have the dynojet baseline, but if you compare the gains off of the mustang than off of my 2nd dyno there is around a ~60whp / ~ 90wtq gain. Also, that's not the biggest thing to look at, the biggest improvement is in the area under the curve. Look at how much tq the car gained through out the power band and the drop off that was fixed up up. You don't see those type of gains on any JBD car.

The most ideal thing would be to get a 335d to get on the dynojet I was on and graph all the numbers together.
Dude the best thing would put. YOUR car back on the mustang. The resolution is fine. Its not like you cant see the curve. It appears more than within a tolerable level of smoothing.

YOUR car on THAT mustang is the only reliable basline / control.
taibanl is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:29 PM   #29
taibanl
Brigadier General
 
taibanl's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

Posts: 3,571
iTrader: (4)

Yes op. great job but im surprised evolve doesnt agree. There is really no risk to the mustang. We are only concerned about the marginal numbers (gains of xxhp and xxtq) which should be consistent across any dyno if you ran a baseline on all.
taibanl is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:45 PM   #30
Concentric190
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Willowbrook, IL

Posts: 262
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1997 BMW M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW 335d  [0.00]
1995 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Dude the best thing would put. YOUR car back on the mustang. The resolution is fine. Its not like you cant see the curve. It appears more than within a tolerable level of smoothing.

YOUR car on THAT mustang is the only reliable basline / control.
I have no problems if someone wants to pay for me to re-dyno on the mustang. I could care less for it as I have the info I need and I think we would have a more accurate graph by getting a stock 335d on the dynojet, I'd rather chip in for that.
__________________
///Andres
09 335d evolve tuned - 327whp / 490wtq -- 13.0@105
95 M3 Turbo - Built 3.0l s52, PTE74GTQ, AEM EMS & CDI
97 M3 NASA TTB build for 2014!
Concentric190 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:50 PM   #31
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

I will put my money where my mouth is,,, I will chip-in for the follow-up dyno on the mustang dyno. Amy other takers? taibanl?

What did the shop with the mustang dyno charge? $75? $100?
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:52 PM   #32
Concentric190
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Willowbrook, IL

Posts: 262
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1997 BMW M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW 335d  [0.00]
1995 BMW M3  [0.00]
$100. I think the money is better spent going the other way, but whatever! lol FYI the $100 got me got me 3 runs each time and the runs posted were the cleanest ones, all the other ones the dyno operator didn't start the car at right RPM, or were inconsistent, both stock and tuned. Also keep in mind the car was basically driving right onto the dyno after a 60+ mile rush hour drive and all runs were almost back to back. (reasons I didn't care for it)

On the dyno jet after a 50mile through some stop and go we let the car cool, and got about 5-6 runs in each time, did back to back runs, a cool down run, idle run, etc. Hans really took his time with it. Also each run was consistent every time, unlike the mustang.
__________________
///Andres
09 335d evolve tuned - 327whp / 490wtq -- 13.0@105
95 M3 Turbo - Built 3.0l s52, PTE74GTQ, AEM EMS & CDI
97 M3 NASA TTB build for 2014!

Last edited by Concentric190; 03-20-2012 at 08:11 PM.
Concentric190 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:55 PM   #33
crazyinp
Lieutenant
 
Drives: BMW 335d
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 550
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335d  [0.00]
I will chip-in too
crazyinp is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:56 PM   #34
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

I will put up $40. Nearly half way there.
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:57 PM   #35
taibanl
Brigadier General
 
taibanl's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

Posts: 3,571
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
I will put up $40. Nearly half way there.
$25
taibanl is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 07:58 PM   #36
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

We are at $65! crazyinp?

Lot's of interest in this tune.

I hope the shop doesn't mind charging 5 different credit cards.
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:07 PM   #37
Concentric190
Second Lieutenant
 
Drives: 335d
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Willowbrook, IL

Posts: 262
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
1997 BMW M3  [0.00]
2009 BMW 335d  [0.00]
1995 BMW M3  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
We are at $65! crazyinp?

Lot's of interest in this tune.

I hope the shop doesn't mind charging 5 different credit cards.
They use paypal, should be okay, lol. I can see if they would give me a cheaper rate since I already shed out like $200 for some not so great runs. Maybe $80?

I really wish you guys would go the other way but whatever! lol.
__________________
///Andres
09 335d evolve tuned - 327whp / 490wtq -- 13.0@105
95 M3 Turbo - Built 3.0l s52, PTE74GTQ, AEM EMS & CDI
97 M3 NASA TTB build for 2014!
Concentric190 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:12 PM   #38
taibanl
Brigadier General
 
taibanl's Avatar
 
Drives: BMW
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: NA

Posts: 3,571
iTrader: (4)

Anyone good with photoshop and could overlay the JBD curve...looks like OP has almost 20hp on top of it.
taibanl is online now  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:17 PM   #39
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Concentric190 View Post
They use paypal, should be okay, lol. I can see if they would give me a cheaper rate since I already shed out like $200 for some not so great runs. Maybe $80?

I really wish you guys would go the other way but whatever! lol.
Paypal even better! If they would be willing to offer a cheaper rate all the better in my book. Let us know on the rate. In the mean time, any other takers?
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:19 PM   #40
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Anyone good with photoshop and could overlay the JBD curve...looks like OP has almost 20hp on top of it.
Not it's not really an accurate represenation to compare the two since they were done on different machines under different conditions. This dyno is lower than some others I have seen so tough to judge. This owner drove 30+ min to the shop so a little heat soaked. And he is running an open element cone filter which I think hurt his performance more than it helped him. The JBD has a nice a curve though, very linear.
Attached Images
 
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:22 PM   #41
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

This reminds me,,, I need to get my exhaust follow-up dyno done...
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 08:30 PM   #42
hotrod2448
grand poobah
 
hotrod2448's Avatar
 
Drives: E70 X5 SG, F10 535i
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Charlotte, NC

Posts: 2,015
iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2011 335d  [0.00]
I'm glad to see it looks like we'll have irrefutable data to discuss... at great length I'm sure.
hotrod2448 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 09:11 PM   #43
crazyinp
Lieutenant
 
Drives: BMW 335d
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 550
iTrader: (4)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335d  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms
We are at $65! crazyinp?

Lot's of interest in this tune.

I hope the shop doesn't mind charging 5 different credit cards.
$25? Give me Paypal. I too want good software so every dollar is well invested
crazyinp is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      03-20-2012, 09:27 PM   #44
cssnms
Brigadier General
 
cssnms's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 BMW 335d
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Murland

Posts: 3,180
iTrader: (4)

Okay we are at $90. Nothing like a few diesel guys coming together to make it happen in an effort to round-out all of the good info posted up by Concentric190!

I agree crazyinp, money well invested!

Hopefully the shop will do it for that amount.
cssnms is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
335d, diesel, evolve, tune, tuned

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:00 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST