[benzy89]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

^ and you miss a massive point. dealerships would love to suck your dick and warranty all the shit in the world even if it was directly related to your mods and not give a fuck. i mean who cares right? bmw is flipping the bill.

but theres the issue, bmw is flipping the bill. and as much as the consumer likes to hate it, a dealerships #1 criteria is making money, which is shocking considering the amount of over head in employees merchandise etc it has. if they can make you happy and make money, sure theyll do it. but if making you happy means they wont make money, then come on, what do you expect them to do? not make money?

but why should they risk your mods being the reason bmw retracts or rejects payment for work/parts?

well obviously a mod'd car shouldnt qualify for bmw's original manufacturer warranty, but i'm talking more about a "bmw aftermarket warranty". obviously neither bmw nor a a dealer is going to honor any warranty the minute they're not making money on servicing the car, thats just bad business.

if someone wants to get their car tuned for mods they have installed or dyno'd, the should go to an privately owned garage. but if someone wants to have a new intake, exhaust, or even supercharger installed, i see no reason why BMW (after an owner signs off, acknowledging that bmw is not liable for any damaged caused by the parts being installed) wouldnt look to make a quick buck by charging their standard mechanics hourly rate to do the work.


problem here is that its easier for bmw to not touch a modded car and avoid any controversy/problems that results from aftermarket parts.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by benzy89

all i have to say is that dealers should show some appreciation for the tuning culture, its opened a whole new demographic for potential owners -- guys (and even some girls) that are really into their cars, expressing themselves and are willing to spend the money on performance mods, a new set of wheels or a bodykit. so long as the owner is making smart and well-informed decisions (running a tune thats within a "safe" boost setting, appropriately spacing wheels, etc.) dealers should be more interested in working with the customer.

it would not only be beneficial to the dealership by opening up a whole new revenue stream (doing aftermarket work on cars), but would also benefit bmw owners by creating a competitive atmosphere between dealership service departments and privately owned garages for customer loyalty.

Benzy, benzy...remember an important point here: we also suffer from availability bias on this forum. if you spend enough time on this site, you'll think everybody mods their 335. People who mod their cars represent probably 0.1% of people who own BMW's! It's a demographic they don't really care about...unless as Hemi puts it...it's going to cost them $$$...then they care a great deal! Plus, as an organization, don't you think the BMW service unit has to set some limits on what constitutes legitimate warranty work and what is the result of some knucklehead pushing the car beyond its prescribed specs? I can think of many analogies here where if you use something beyond the limits prescribed in the terms of the warranty you're transferring that risk to yourself. A warranty is a contract, which by definition binds BOTH parties to its terms. This is an inconvenient truth that many on here have learned the hard way.

Furthermore, who is to say what is a safe mod and what is not? I don't expect a multi-national, multi-billion dollar public company like BMW AG to take some tuner clown's word for anything on a car they've spent hundreds of millions testing and researching! The only way for BMW to be consistent is to deny warranty work if they see mods...or maybe look the other way if they think they have nothing to do with the issue at hand. they are covering their ass, plain and simple. I'd do the same thing in their shoes. Let's remember this is a for-profit company not a car modification advocacy group. Not trying to be argumentative here...i love tuning these cars but I also am realizing the risk I am assuming by doing so. I think you're being very naive here...just my two Lincolns...

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by sickem

Benzy, benzy...remember an important point here: we also suffer from availability bias on this forum. if you spend enough time on this site, you'll think everybody mods their 335. People who mod their cars represent probably 0.1% of people who own BMW's! It's a demographic they don't really care about...unless as Hemi puts it...it's going to cost them $$$...then they care a great deal! Plus, as an organization, don't you think the BMW service unit has to set some limits on what constitutes legitimate warranty work and what is the result of some knucklehead pushing the car beyond its prescribed specs? I can think of many analogies here where if you use something beyond the limits prescribed in the terms of the warranty you're transferring that risk to yourself. A warranty is a contract, which by definition binds BOTH parties to its terms. This is an inconvenient truth that many on here have learned the hard way.

Furthermore, who is to say what is a safe mod and what is not? I don't expect a multi-national, multi-billion dollar public company like BMW AG to take some tuner clown's word for anything on a car they've spent hundreds of millions testing and researching! The only way for BMW to be consistent is to deny warranty work if they see mods...or maybe look the other way if they think they have nothing to do with the issue at hand. they are covering their ass, plain and simple. I'd do the same thing in their shoes. Let's remember this is a for-profit company not a car modification advocacy group. Not trying to be argumentative here...i love tuning these cars but I also am realizing the risk I am assuming by doing so. I think you're being very naive here...just my two Lincolns...

nicely worded response sickem, much more, idk, calm and patient than i would be.

ive modded 5 current gen cars at this point, mods are risky. you shouldnt want to deflect said risk just to cover your ass when something goes wrong.

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by sickem

Benzy, benzy...remember an important point here: we also suffer from availability bias on this forum. if you spend enough time on this site, you'll think everybody mods their 335. People who mod their cars represent probably 0.1% of people who own BMW's! It's a demographic they don't really care about...unless as Hemi puts it...it's going to cost them $$$...then they care a great deal! Plus, as an organization, don't you think the BMW service unit has to set some limits on what constitutes legitimate warranty work and what is the result of some knucklehead pushing the car beyond its prescribed specs? I can think of many analogies here where if you use something beyond the limits prescribed in the terms of the warranty you're transferring that risk to yourself. A warranty is a contract, which by definition binds BOTH parties to its terms. This is an inconvenient truth that many on here have learned the hard way.

Furthermore, who is to say what is a safe mod and what is not? I don't expect a multi-national, multi-billion dollar public company like BMW AG to take some tuner clown's word for anything on a car they've spent hundreds of millions testing and researching! The only way for BMW to be consistent is to deny warranty work if they see mods...or maybe look the other way if they think they have nothing to do with the issue at hand. they are covering their ass, plain and simple. I'd do the same thing in their shoes. Let's remember this is a for-profit company not a car modification advocacy group. Not trying to be argumentative here...i love tuning these cars but I also am realizing the risk I am assuming by doing so. I think you're being very naive here...just my two Lincolns...

naive maybe, and i completely agree that BMW has better things to do then go from tuner to tuner & determine wats "safe", but BMW isnt ignorant and currently endorses a selective few aftermarket performance companies. Alpina specifically comes to mind, especially since you can go into a BMW dealer and purcahse the alpina b7.

bmw has also gotten into the aftermarket business by offering "bmw performance" parts, specifically things like exhaust, intake & even tune upgrades, so IMO the aftermarket-trend is starting to have such a significant impact that even the production companies are giving it more attention w/ specific models (1, 3 & M cars).

[sickem]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

nicely worded response sickem, much more, idk, calm and patient than i would be.

ive modded 5 current gen cars at this point, mods are risky. you shouldnt want to deflect said risk just to cover your ass when something goes wrong.

well we just have different styles I guess!

Originally Posted by benzy89

naive maybe, and i completely agree that BMW has better things to do then go from tuner to tuner & determine wats "safe", but BMW isnt ignorant and currently endorses a selective few aftermarket performance companies. Alpina specifically comes to mind, especially since you can go into a BMW dealer and purcahse the alpina b7.

bmw has also gotten into the aftermarket business by offering "bmw performance" parts, specifically things like exhaust, intake & even tune upgrades, so IMO the aftermarket-trend is starting to have such a significant impact that even the production companies are giving it more attention w/ specific models (1, 3 & M cars).

well they do have the PPK for the 335i but it is a very conservative tune and is quite expensive IMO for what it is...Dinan is a third party that does essentially void your warranty - it's just that since you pay a 1000% premium for it they give you a warranty on their own!


something else just occured to me from a marketing standpoint. if BMW offered too many mods for the 335...not as many people would be likely to buy an M3...this is just my theory - I have no proof that this is part of their thought process but it could be. Notice that the 335is, both in price and performance, is just slightly below that of its E92/3 M3 cousin...they are very good at marketing, that's why a sucker like me has spent half his morning on this silly board instead of doing my work!!!


I don't think Alpina is a good example since that is a super luxo version and anyone buying that is not worried about incidental repair costs and they sell a few hundred globally. Anyways I see your point and understand where you are coming from. I think it just comes down to a risk assessment on BMW's part...they figure the profit they'd make from modders like us doesn't justify the risks they would take working on our cars with these highly enjoyable (but fickle) mods! Cheers.

[benzy89]

100% agree that BMW marketing has done it's homework & basically created a car for every niche. IMO, they ditched the N54 motor because they realized it had way too much power potential and was taking away from M3 sales (hence why the 335is utilized the N54 when the N55 was being used in the normal 335i at the same time). Other problem with using the twin-turbo setup on the N54 is that the next F80 M3 (all this is rumors) is supposed to also be a twin-turbo setup. Excluding displacement & the DCT trans, it probably would be very difficult for a substantial performance difference to exist between two different 6-cylinder, twin-turbo'd engines.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by benzy89

naive maybe, and i completely agree that BMW has better things to do then go from tuner to tuner & determine wats "safe", but BMW isnt ignorant and currently endorses a selective few aftermarket performance companies. Alpina specifically comes to mind, especially since you can go into a BMW dealer and purcahse the alpina b7.

bmw has also gotten into the aftermarket business by offering "bmw performance" parts, specifically things like exhaust, intake & even tune upgrades, so IMO the aftermarket-trend is starting to have such a significant impact that even the production companies are giving it more attention w/ specific models (1, 3 & M cars).

okay, alpina, isnt a good example of aftermarket, the only reason we have an b7 here is because bmw wont build an m7. thats changing now.

also alpina, isnt "aftermarket". its very integrated with bmw, but offers a warranty through them (this is in europe). the example is just invalid as a comparison here, because their pricing structure builds in a cash float for any warranty work in the future should bmw invalidate for aftermarket products. your burger tuning or vishnu doesnt do that. dinan does. compare pricing and you see the same trend. how long as dinan been pimped at bmw dealerships?

bmw has offered "performance" parts for a while, but they technically dont go with the warranty of it, its under accessory warranty, slightly different.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by sickem

well we just have different styles I guess!

my problem is that on the forums i talk to every one like they are working for me instead of being the customer.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by benzy89

100% agree that BMW marketing has done it's homework & basically created a car for every niche. IMO, they ditched the N54 motor because they realized it had way too much power potential and was taking away from M3 sales (hence why the 335is utilized the N54 when the N55 was being used in the normal 335i at the same time). Other problem with using the twin-turbo setup on the N54 is that the next F80 M3 (all this is rumors) is supposed to also be a twin-turbo setup. Excluding displacement & the DCT trans, it probably would be very difficult for a substantial performance difference to exist between two different 6-cylinder, twin-turbo'd engines.

you are factually incorrent. the m3 is going to be a tri-turbo motor. also, whats an "f80 m3?". its also not going to be an n54 engine. the n54 was dropped for the n55 because of cost, not performance. the n55 as a stock platform or ppk performs just as well as the n54, but is more fuel efficient, easier to comply with emission standards, and is cheaper to produce. it also is more responsive.

so if the motor is just as powerful stock, how is it not going to take away sales from the m3 just as the n54 did?

[sickem]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

you are factually incorrent. the m3 is going to be a tri-turbo motor. also, whats an "f80 m3?". its also not going to be an n54 engine. the n54 was dropped for the n55 because of cost, not performance. the n55 as a stock platform or ppk performs just as well as the n54, but is more fuel efficient, easier to comply with emission standards, and is cheaper to produce. it also is more responsive.

so if the motor is just as powerful stock, how is it not going to take away sales from the m3 just as the n54 did?

tri turbo is what I've heard as well. It's also rumored to be rated at 450 hp, but since it's a turbo we should be able to tune the bejesus out of it! It won't be an "N" designated motor...it'll likely be an "S" designation...the 1M was the aberration. F80 M3 is in fact the chassis designation for the new M3 as I've seen it written (I had to look twice at this too!)

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by sickem

tri turbo is what I've heard as well. It's also rumored to be rated at 450 hp, but since it's a turbo we should be able to tune the bejesus out of it! It won't be an "N" designated motor...it'll likely be an "S" designation...the 1M was the aberration. F80 M3 is in fact the chassis designation for the new M3 as I've seen it written (I had to look twice at this too!)

i dont get why its not an f30

and you are right. lol.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

i dont get why its not an f30

and you are right. lol.

yeah, hemi, I don't get it!

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

you are factually incorrent. the m3 is going to be a tri-turbo motor. also, whats an "f80 m3?". its also not going to be an n54 engine. the n54 was dropped for the n55 because of cost, not performance. the n55 as a stock platform or ppk performs just as well as the n54, but is more fuel efficient, easier to comply with emission standards, and is cheaper to produce. it also is more responsive.

so if the motor is just as powerful stock, how is it not going to take away sales from the m3 just as the n54 did?

F80 M3
http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684529

Factually incorrect? Tri-turbo, just like whether or not the engine will be a straight 6 of v6, its all speculation. As of right now, there really are NO facts -- For all we know the next M3 coupe might be rebranded the M4 (I hope to God that it won't be).

I also never said it was going to be an N54, my comparison was that it would be a bit foolish for BMW to have to two (one in the 335i & one in the next M3) twin-turbo'd six cylinder engines in the same model range.

[benzy89]

Can't remember where I saw it, but this is the 1st time that the M3 is going to be given its own chassis designation that will be different from the standard 3-series

[sickem]

Originally Posted by benzy89

F80 M3
http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684529

Factually incorrect? Tri-turbo, just like whether or not the engine will be a straight 6 of v6, its all speculation. As of right now, there really are NO facts -- For all we know the next M3 coupe might be rebranded the M4 (I hope to God that it won't be).

I also never said it was going to be an N54, my comparison was that it would be a bit foolish for BMW to have to two (one in the 335i & one in the next M3) twin-turbo'd six cylinder engines in the same model range.

To be technical...they don't make any cars with the N54 (twin turbo) anymore to my knowledge. They use the N55 which is a single, twin scroll turbo... But nonetheless I think it is all the more reason that if they don't make a V8 M(insert 3 or 4) which by all accts they're not it'll be a tri-turbo I-6. I don't know that BMW has any history with V-6 configurations. I am not a historian on the subject...But it is also myopic for people to compare the M cars directly to their non M brethren b/c the latter lack the high RPM tolerances, LSDs, etc. that make an M car...an M car. Certainly you can add some of these things aftermarket but not many do. My point is that there are features besides the engine that set them apart (and demand a higher price point).

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by sickem

To be technical...they don't make any cars with the N54 (twin turbo) anymore to my knowledge. They use the N55 which is a single, twin scroll turbo... But nonetheless I think it is all the more reason that if they don't make a V8 M(insert 3 or 4) which by all accts they're not it'll be a tri-turbo I-6. I don't know that BMW has any history with V-6 configurations. I am not a historian on the subject...But it is also myopic for people to compare the M cars directly to their non M brethren b/c the latter lack the high RPM tolerances, LSDs, etc. that make an M car...an M car. Certainly you can add some of these things aftermarket but not many do. My point is that there are features besides the engine that set them apart (and demand a higher price point).

335is and z4 sdrive35is

no?

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by benzy89

F80 M3
http://www.f30post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=684529

Factually incorrect? Tri-turbo, just like whether or not the engine will be a straight 6 of v6, its all speculation. As of right now, there really are NO facts -- For all we know the next M3 coupe might be rebranded the M4 (I hope to God that it won't be).

I also never said it was going to be an N54, my comparison was that it would be a bit foolish for BMW to have to two (one in the 335i & one in the next M3) twin-turbo'd six cylinder engines in the same model range.

i dont its foolish at all. i think its the wave of the future, how else are we going to get around these insane emission / efficiency regulations?

mercedes is already a step ahead of bmw imho, with the new 550 motor and the new 5.5TT AMG motor.

granted, i only say this cause i dont like the sdrive 50i motor, at all. but im anxious to hear about the new m5 motor.

[sickem]

Originally Posted by hemi to e90

335is and z4 sdrive35is

no?

nope, both N55 according to BMWusa.com I think you're getting confused...whenever you see "twin power technology" that is code for N55...the 335is was N54 until I think 2011 or something.

[benzy89]

Originally Posted by sickem

To be technical...they don't make any cars with the N54 (twin turbo) anymore to my knowledge. They use the N55 which is a single, twin scroll turbo... But nonetheless I think it is all the more reason that if they don't make a V8 M(insert 3 or 4) which by all accts they're not it'll be a tri-turbo I-6. I don't know that BMW has any history with V-6 configurations. I am not a historian on the subject...But it is also myopic for people to compare the M cars directly to their non M brethren b/c the latter lack the high RPM tolerances, LSDs, etc. that make an M car...an M car. Certainly you can add some of these things aftermarket but not many do. My point is that there are features besides the engine that set them apart (and demand a higher price point).

Completely aware that once the N55 was introduced in 2011, the only cars that still used the N54 were the 335is and the 1M (pretty sure they've switched over now and have a different boost setting to maintain that power difference). The I6 configuration gives better weight distribution, but the major concern seems to be that if BMW uses bigger turbos (to be able to power the next M3/M4 to 450hp on stock boost) that it will force them to use a V-configuration (1 turbo on each side of the block, being fed by 3 cylinders). While this is sacrilegious for a BMW to have a V6, some people were saying that when the BMW went to the V8 in the E9x (prior to that, every M3 had a straight engine configuration). Now traditionalists are upset that the M3 will be going the same route as the F10 M5 by receiving F/I. This has become unfortunately necessary that if you want legit power and to have accepted gas mileage numbers, you gotta use some forced induction.

What I'm most interested in is when the new M3/M4 comes out, how will it stand up acceleration wise?? The new 8-speed ZF auto has nearly neutralized the power difference between the 328's 4-cylinder turbo (5.9 sec 0-60) and the 335i 6-cylinder turbo (5.4 sec 0-60). Seems like the M3 will carry over the DCT trans (the M5's using it now), so hopefully the gearing will be able to put the M3/M4 in mid/low 4's for its 0-60 time.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by sickem

nope, both N55 according to BMWusa.com I think you're getting confused...whenever you see "twin power technology" that is code for N55...the 335is was N54 until I think 2011 or something.

a 2012 335is is not an n54?

just checked it here, and its the n54 for the is.

[hemi to e90]

Originally Posted by benzy89

Completely aware that once the N55 was introduced in 2011, the only cars that still used the N54 were the 335is and the 1M. The I6 configuration gives better weight distribution, but the major concern seems to be that if BMW uses bigger turbos (to be able to power the next M3/M4 to 450hp on stock boost) that it will force them to use a V-configuration (1 turbo on each side of the block, being fed by 3 cylinders). While this is sacrilegious for a BMW to have a V6, some people were saying that when the BMW went to the V8 in the E9x (prior to that, every M3 had a straight engine configuration). Now traditionalists are upset that the M3 will be going the same route as the F10 M5 by receiving F/I. This has become unfortunately necessary that if you want legit power and to have accepted gas mileage numbers, you gotta use some forced induction.

What I'm most interested in is when the new M3/M4 comes out, how will it stand up acceleration wise?? The new 8-speed ZF auto has nearly neutralized the power difference between the 328's 4-cylinder turbo (5.9 sec 0-60) and the 335i 6-cylinder turbo (5.4 sec 0-60). Seems like the M3 will carry over the DCT trans (the M5's using it now), so hopefully the gearing will be able to put the M3/M4 in mid/low 4's for its 0-60 time.

im always curious on this, but do you know why purists actually used to be all whiney about the inline 6?

ps ive driven both the f30 328 and the f30 335i (cousins has the 335i and female has a 328) and theres enough of performance gap between the two of them. especially after 60.

[sickem]

... a half second is significant in 0-60 times. I wouldn't go as far as to say it is neutralized...