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      05-01-2012, 12:38 AM   #375
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      05-01-2012, 12:28 PM   #376
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
I don't understand why all these complaint with low hp/torque. Find me a car that is FR with more HP that costs within 10% of this thing. Do we even know the 0-60 number of this thing?
I agree... this car has NO competition whatsoever, it's unique. Period. It's that good.

I absolutely love the whole concept of it even the NA engine. What I'm saying is that the concept could be enhanced even further by the addition of FI to the boxer engine, and NOT because of max power BUT because of low to mid range torque.

I would gladly trade max power for a significantly increase in torque across a wider rpm band (without compromising emissions standards, even enhancing them) because that's what makes for the perceived engine power output in a daily commute. I own a 1M and due to the massive torque available way down low in the RPM range, appropriately matched with tall gears, I don't need to rev the engine to maximum rpm to find myself saying everyday 'WOW... this thing really kick ass!!!'

I now start to realize that Subaru must go the engine downsizing route also. To put it all into perspective, under the Toyobaru's hood a boxer engine version of the late Audi inline four 1.8 TFSI engine is all is needed :

Only 170 hp... but constant form 3800 to 6200 rpm! And more importantly, 236.02 lb-ft... Yes, 236.02 lb-ft of torque from 1400 to 3700 rpm!!! (Mind you, my former Cayman with 265 hp only had 221 lb-ft of max torque @ 4.400 - 6.000 rpm from a NA 2.9-liter engine)



Like the Toyota's proprietary D4-S fuel injection system in the Toyobaru's boxer engine that combines direct injection and port injection:

Quote:
"Combustion behavior was a particular focus of the development work. In addition to FSI direct injection, the 1.8 TFSI also uses indirect injection. This system injects the fuel at the end of the intake manifold near the tumble valves, where it is swirled intensively with the air. Indirect injection is used in the part-load range. It reduces fuel consumption and particulate emissions to such an extent that the four-cylinder engine already complies with the limits of the future Euro 6 standard, which does not enter into force until 2015.

The rail pressure of the FSI system has been increased from 150 to 200 bar. The direct injection system is active when starting off and at higher loads. It can perform two or three individual injection operations per work cycle.

(...)

Engine weight has been reduced from 135 to 131.5 kilograms (297.62 to 289.91 lb).

(...)

The innovative thermal management of the four-cylinder engine features a new fully electronic coolant regulation system.

(...)

Switchable valves throughout the cooling system manage heat flows between the engine, the heat exchanger for the transmission and the cabin. All together, the thermal management system reduces the CO2 emissions of the 1.8 TFSI by around 2.5 g per 100 km (4.02 g/mile).

This concept benefited from the integration of the exhaust manifold into the water-cooled cylinder head. Because this also reduces the exhaust gas temperature, it is not necessary with the 1.8 TFSI to enrich the mixture at full load, which reduces fuel consumption significantly when driving sportily.

The turbocharger in the 1.8 TFSI is also an all-new design that develops the high relative boost pressure of up to 1.3 bar very systematically. Key features include a turbine wheel made from a new alloy that can withstand exhaust temperatures of up to 980 degrees Celsius"


Innovation engine: The new 1.8 TFSI

BTW, enriching the mixture at high load to reduce exhaust gas temperature (which can reach above 1000 degrees Celsius - not good for turbine blades) and also to reduce spool time are the two main reasons why I find my 1M not so-fuel efficient (and why I like superchargers)... the third, and a VERY important one, is aerodynamics... the car best resembles a fridge with four wheels, especially if it is AW... like mine.

Fortunately, the Toyobaru has the stance of a cat (instead of the bulldog like 1M).

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      05-01-2012, 03:18 PM   #377
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Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
These guys got 6.2sec in 0-60.



MotorTrend got 6.4secs in 0-60.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html

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At 2747 pounds, the BRZ is 160 pounds heavier than the 2012 Mazda MX-5 Miata Special Edition hardtop, but offsets the added weight with an extra 33 hp. In other words, the Subaru's weight-to-power ratio of 13.7 pounds per pony betters the Mazda's 15.5. Unsurprisingly, the BRZ, which measures 9.4 inches longer and around 2 inches wider and taller than the Miata, proved a hair quicker, scooting from 0 to 60 in 6.4 seconds (versus the Miata's 6.5) and through the quarter mile in 14.9 at 95.5 mph (versus 15.0 at 90.2).
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      05-01-2012, 08:38 PM   #378
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfx45 View Post
These guys got 6.2sec in 0-60.
The official time is 7.6 sec 0-100 km/h (0-62 mph).


For instance, the fwd Mini Cooper S Coupe which weighs roughly the same (1240 kg) as the Toyobaru officially does the 0-62 mph sprint in 6.9 sec.

Is the Mini more powerful than the Toyobaru?! No.

Does it have a larger displacement engine then?! No.

So, what's the secret?! Well... the torque from the BMW/PSA (N18B16) turbocharged 1.6 L gasoline direct injection engine:

Displacement.......1598 cm³
Bore x Stroke.......85.8/77 mm
Output................181 hp @ 5500 rpm
Max. torque/revs...177 (192*) lb-ft @ 1,600-5,000 rpm
Compression.........10.5:1

*with overboost function.



I could bet that some form (maybe with Toyota's D4-S fuel injection system) of the Subaru Boxer 1.6L DIT (Direct Injection Turbo) engine will go under the Toyobaru's hood in the very near future... there's no way around it!

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      05-01-2012, 09:20 PM   #379
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18 pages of chatter about this load?
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      05-01-2012, 10:43 PM   #380
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfx45 View Post
These guys got 6.2sec in 0-60.



MotorTrend got 6.4secs in 0-60.
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...t/viewall.html
You guys gotta watch some of these videos and what the commentaries are saying before bitching at the torque and HP.

Something seems to be wrong with the Edmund launches when compared to the Motortrend launch. It sounds like they launch at a lower rev or something as the tire screeched for much less. Official numbers-wise, we know that nobody really cares. And one'd have to know better than to compare Toyota/Subaru official numbers to Mini official numbers. If anything I'd compare numbers from the same magazine for the 2 cars.

6.4s on Prius ECO tires, that's exceptionally fast. If people really want straight-line speed, I bet you a good couple tenths can be shaved just by going with stickier rubbers to put more power down off the line.

In regards to practical day to day usage. I used to drive a 1994 Honda Accord, which is some 100hp or something ridiculous like that. I never had any complaint in straight line speed in daily driving. Downshift and get into the power band. Why be afraid of rev?

But regardless. This car is not about numbers. It's about fun, it's about driver improvement. Buy a Mustang or a Mazdaspeed 3 or whatever if power and torque is what one wants. It just isn't what it's about.
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      05-02-2012, 12:09 AM   #381
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>that feel when you can't stand seeing the same 15+ page thread being re-bumped over and over
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      05-02-2012, 04:33 AM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
You guys gotta watch some of these videos and what the commentaries are saying before bitching at the torque and HP.

Official numbers-wise, we know that nobody really cares. And one'd have to know better than to compare Toyota/Subaru official numbers to Mini official numbers. If anything I'd compare numbers from the same magazine for the 2 cars.
Hummm... does that mean you bought your 135i thinking about its weight then?! Because its huge at 3373 lbs ... as every magazine will happily tell you!

Sure you didn't care about the 306 hp @ 5.800 rpm or, more importantly, the 295 lb-ft @ 1.200-5.000 rpm. Some magazines even will tell you that those values are way conservative... but what would you care, right?! Oh... and the official 5.3 sec from 0-62 mph... you didn't care either.

So, the only reason I can think of for you to have bought the 135i instead of the 165 lbs lighter and nimbler (@ 3208 lbs) 128i is... you like to waste money!


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
6.4s on Prius ECO tires, that's exceptionally fast. If people really want straight-line speed, I bet you a good couple tenths can be shaved just by going with stickier rubbers to put more power down off the line.

In regards to practical day to day usage. I used to drive a 1994 Honda Accord, which is some 100hp or something ridiculous like that. I never had any complaint in straight line speed in daily driving. Downshift and get into the power band. Why be afraid of rev?
Because revving means you will hit higher speeds... good for the track, sure... but not for the road, which is what every day fun is all about.

You should be asking Honda instead why did they drop their mighty F20C 9000 rpm capable engine, or the every other high revving engines for that matter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
But regardless. This car is not about numbers. It's about fun, it's about driver improvement. Buy a Mustang or a Mazdaspeed 3 or whatever if power and torque is what one wants. It just isn't what it's about.
Yes... driver improvement, that's something you wanna be able to do first at lower speeds for the fun sake... that's what rwd low end torque is for!

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      05-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #383
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7.3 seconds is pretty disappointing. I'm not sure that beats a Honda Accord sedan. I know it's not all about "0-60", but that time is pretty pedestrian.
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      05-02-2012, 11:28 AM   #384
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Doesn't the Civic Si do 0-60 in the mid 6's? I figured it'd be right in that neck of the woods.
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      05-02-2012, 02:35 PM   #385
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
Hummm... does that mean you bought your 135i thinking about its weight then?! Because its huge at 3373 lbs ... as every magazine will happily tell you!

Sure you didn't care about the 306 hp @ 5.800 rpm or, more importantly, the 295 lb-ft @ 1.200-5.000 rpm. Some magazines even will tell you that those values are way conservative... but what would you care, right?! Oh... and the official 5.3 sec from 0-62 mph... you didn't care either.

So, the only reason I can think of for you to have bought the 135i instead of the 165 lbs lighter and nimbler (@ 3208 lbs) 128i is... you like to waste money!

Because revving means you will hit higher speeds... good for the track, sure... but not for the road, which is what every day fun is all about.

You should be asking Honda instead why did they drop their mighty F20C 9000 rpm capable engine, or the every other high revving engines for that matter.

Yes... driver improvement, that's something you wanna be able to do first at lower speeds for the fun sake... that's what rwd low end torque is for!
I bought the 135i used, it was 1 year old at a good discount, low milage and in tip top shape. If there was a nicely optioned, good condition 128i I would've done that instead. In fact I was debating between the 1 year old 135i and a 3 years old 328i. The 135i just simply was in much much better shape as the first owner babied the thing, while the 328i didn't feel like having the same level of care for the 3 years it's been with the owner. So I chose the 135i.

There was really, simply no good 2+2 FR before the new 86 without paying at least the 128i price range. I thought about the Miata but it isn't cheap either, and I wasn't ready to have no back seats at all for the 2 or 3 times I need it a year.

Reving does not have to mean higher speed. What I mean is, If you are in the pedestrian 4th gear at some 60km/hr or 40mph and you want torque and power, drop into 2nd. Yes you have to downshift, but that's what the upper revs and the gearbox is for. On the street, you'd have plenty enough power to do anything but racing red-light to red-light in almost any car out there (maybe not a Smart.....).

Honda dropped their rev-happy engines because they don't make a sport/sporty car anymore... Referencing a disgrace such as Honda who dropped all their racing hertiage is the worst example one can come up with.

My stance on the 86 engine is. Good if it give low end torque. But it's definately not necassary, and can probably be argued that it's not worth it if any other sacrifieces have to be made (weight, power response, COG, price, etc).

And yes, given the same position today, I'd have bought a new 86 rather than a 1 year old 135i, especially when it's over 10k CAD cheaper. It'd be absolutely no brainer if it's a well kept 1 year old 86 vs a well kept 1 year old 135i (probably 15k in savings where I can put towards an entry luxury SUV as people carrier).
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      05-02-2012, 02:40 PM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
The official time is 7.6 sec 0-100 km/h (0-62 mph).
Where is the official time from?
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      05-02-2012, 02:43 PM   #387
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had a 2008 Z. Will probably get a 370z in the future unless brz/fsr comes out with a FI version
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      05-02-2012, 05:57 PM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfx45 View Post
Where is the official time from?
Here: The new Subaru BRZ (first page - last paragraph)

Quote:
Da das Coupé mit 1202 kg ein ausgesprochenes Leichtgewicht ist, verhilft ihm der Zweiliter zu Fahrleistungen (Spitze rund 230 km/h, Spurt von 0 auf 100 km/h in etwa 7,6 s, Version mit dem manuellen 6-Gang-getriebe), wie man sie von einem emotionalen, aber trotzdem vernünftigen Sportwagen erwarten darf. Ungeachtet dieser Auslegung geht das Aluminium-Aggregat moderat mit dem Treibstoff um und bleibt somit durchaus umweltverträglich.

Google translator:

Quote:
Since the coupe with 1202 kg a pronounced light-weight, helps him to the two-liter performance (peak around 230 km/h, accelerates from 0 to 100 km/h in about 7.6 s, the version with 6-speed manual transmission), as experienced on an emotional, but may still expect reasonable sports car. Notwithstanding this interpretation, the aluminum unit is moderate for the fuel and is therefore perfectly compatible with the environment.

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      05-02-2012, 06:19 PM   #389
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
Reving does not have to mean higher speed. What I mean is, If you are in the pedestrian 4th gear at some 60km/hr or 40mph and you want torque and power, drop into 2nd. Yes you have to downshift, but that's what the upper revs and the gearbox is for. On the street, you'd have plenty enough power to do anything but racing red-light to red-light in almost any car out there (maybe not a Smart.....).
mph = (rpm x tire diameter) / (gear ratio x 336)

Do the math yourself...

What I mean is: dropping into 2nd in your 135i obviously doesn't have the same effect than dropping into 2nd in the Toyobaru after you open the throttle @ 40 mph!!!

With the 135i you can steer on the throttle from MUCH lower speeds - the throttle has complete authority over the chassis at low and safer speeds!

For you to have the same kind of control from the Toyobaru's throttle you have to rev the engine at least to 6.5k - 7k rpm which means that in 2nd gear you hit higher speeds when compared to the 135i into 2nd gear @ 1200 rpm (where the max. engine torque just starts).


Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
Honda dropped their rev-happy engines because they don't make a sport/sporty car anymore... Referencing a disgrace such as Honda who dropped all their racing hertiage is the worst example one can come up with.
True... but they don't make a sports car anymore because they don't have the right 'green' engine!

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      05-02-2012, 07:00 PM   #390
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I think this picture is worth a thousand words... this is why this car is just beautiful:

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      05-02-2012, 07:31 PM   #391
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Here: The new Subaru BRZ (first page - last paragraph)




Google translator:
Thanks. How come they don't have this press release in English (for the US) yet?
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      05-02-2012, 07:57 PM   #392
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rfx45 View Post
Thanks. How come they don't have this press release in English (for the US) yet?
Pure marketing... they know that the 0-62 mph time figure is, above everything else, a VERY powerful marketing instrument... and in the case of the Toyobaru it isn't stellar.
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      05-02-2012, 08:30 PM   #393
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
mph = (rpm x tire diameter) / (gear ratio x 336)

Do the math yourself...

What I mean is: dropping into 2nd in your 135i obviously doesn't have the same effect than dropping into 2nd in the Toyobaru after you open the throttle @ 40 mph!!!

With the 135i you can steer on the throttle from MUCH lower speeds - the throttle has complete authority over the chassis at low and safer speeds!

For you to have the same kind of control from the Toyobaru's throttle you have to rev the engine at least to 6.5k - 7k rpm which means that in 2nd gear you hit higher speeds when compared to the 135i into 2nd gear @ 1200 rpm (where the max. engine torque just starts).




True... but they don't make a sports car anymore because they don't have the right 'green' engine!
I meant at 40mph, with low end torque, I can get away just stepping on the throttle in 4th gear. The complaint is you can't do that on the Toyobaru. My resposne is, drop it into 2nd and rev the darn thing!
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      05-02-2012, 10:29 PM   #394
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
I meant at 40mph, with low end torque, I can get away just stepping on the throttle in 4th gear. The complaint is you can't do that on the Toyobaru. My resposne is, drop it into 2nd and rev the darn thing!
If I can drop the Toyobaru into 2nd why wouldn't I do just that also in the 135i or the 1M for that matter?!

I'm not talking strictly about straight acceleration... I'm talking about steering on throttle control at low speeds.

With the Toyobaru the rev limiter in 2nd gear kicks in at 59.2 mph... so, from 40 mph onward a very narrow usable window is left before you need to shift-up into 3rd increasing speed and losing both the low gear torque advantage and, what matters the most, the throttle authority over the chassis.

Let me do the math for you using the above formula:

7450 rpm (BRZ's rev limiter) * k (const.) = 59.2 mph

x rpm (rpm @ 40.0 mph) * k (const.) = 40.0 mph

x = (40.0 mph * 7450 rpm) / 59.2 mph = 5033 rpm


This means that at 40 mph in 2nd gear you don't even benefit of the Toyobaru's engine full potential because you haven't reached engine's max. torque yet which only appears at 6400 rpm.

@ 6400 rpm the speed has already increased to (40.0 mph * 6400 rpm) / 5033 rpm = 50.9 mph

So, you get the best useful window ONLY over 1050 rpm (7450 - 6400) with a max. speed variation of 8.3 mph before you need to shift up.

Whereas in the 135i your best useful window extends from 1200 all way up to above 5000 rpm in each gear.


Do you understand the difference now?!

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      05-02-2012, 10:39 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoingTooFast View Post
If I can drop the Toyobaru into 2nd why wouldn't I do just that also in the 135i or the 1M for that matter?!

I'm not talking strictly about straight acceleration... I'm talking about steering on throttle control at low speeds.

With the Toyobaru the rev limiter in 2nd gear kicks in at 59.2 mph... so, from 40 mph onward a very narrow usable window is left before you need to shift-up into 3rd increasing speed and losing both the low gear torque advantage and, what matters the most, the throttle authority over the chassis.

Let me do the math for you using the above formula:

7450 rpm (BRZ's rev limiter) * k (const.) = 59.2 mph

x rpm (rpm @ 40.0 mph) * k (const.) = 40.0 mph

x = (40.0 mph * 7450 rpm) / 59.2 mph = 5033 rpm


This means that at 40 mph in 2nd gear you don't even benefit of the Toyobaru's engine full potential because you haven't reached engine's max. torque yet which only appears at 6400 rpm.

@ 6400 rpm the speed has already increased to (40.0 mph * 6400 rpm) / 5033 rpm = 50.9 mph

So, in 2nd gear you get the best useful window ONLY over 1400 rpm (7450 - 6400) with a max. speed variation of 8.3 mph before you need to shift up.

Whereas in the 135i your useful window extends from 1200 all way up to 5000 rpm in each gear.


Do you understand the difference now?!
Doesn't take a PhD in Mathematics to figure out that a 135i has a sh_t load more torque across the entire power band than the Toyobaru. I'm talking about, if you need some extra acceleration during daily driving situation, for example to do a pass to get to a highway exit, to pass a PITA slow car, etc, down shifting the Toyobaru is more than enough. Is this more power/torque than the 135 regardless of the rpm one's trying to compare them at? Not in this life time. Is this enough for DD? Yes I'd say.

If one is to say that the lack of torque across the power band makes this a boring car to drive in DD situations, then just buy an American muscle car. If someone wants the power and finesse, you can try Porsches at almost 3 times the price. But even then they don't have as low a COG as the Toyobaru...

I view this car as a FR version of the Civic Si (as they are similar HP and similar price). But with low COG, FR and LSD for free~ Who can complain about that?
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      05-02-2012, 10:49 PM   #396
GoingTooFast
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Drives: fat cars are still boats
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: compensating a fat car with horsepower is like giving an alcoholic cocaine to sober him up.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BiscottiGelato View Post
Is this enough for DD? Yes I'd say.
Now that's the real question... but then again, why wouldn't the Miata power/torque be also enough for DD in the Toyobaru?!
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