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      04-30-2012, 09:15 AM   #1
Cozy
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Wagner Tuning Intercooler & Down Pipe Group Buy - Test Car Needed, FREE DPs!!!

Hi everyone,

We're all getting pretty interested in tuning the 335i now and the US section of this website only wets our appetite for such things however, the barrier being that we have only a handful of UK tuners and a limited number of aftermarket parts, those imported from the US come with a large customs charge and for most are not viable options.

I have been speaking with Wagner Tuning UK regarding their front mounted intercooler & exhaust options for the BMW 335i with N54 engine and the possibility of a group buy for UK (only) E90Post members. They have agreed to offer a discount structure to their already competitive prices for us if we purchase them in mass.

Wagner Tuning are a German brand who offer a vital range of quality tuning products for BMW, Audi, Porsche & VW for those wishing to take the performance of their car to the next level after a Stage 1 remap or piggyback tune. Despite being European, Wagner Tuning have only really just introduced themselves to the BMW UK market and this group buy will work in favour of us all, discount for us & publicity for them. As such, this may be the one and only time that a group buy will be available to everyone so make sure that you take advantage of it. You will find that a majority of their customers on this forum are from the USA, all of which have given positive reviews about the performance of their products, based on which I would have no trouble what-so-ever purchasing one for my own car, hence this thread . You can find their website below for further information regarding the company or any of their other products.

Wagner Tuning UK


Intercoolers:

There are two options available for us, both of which are extremely good value and cater for both those who wish to push their car to the maximum achievable and those who wish to have a direct replacement intercooler that requires NO modification yet a sizeable decrease in IATs and added performance. The latter is what lead me to Wagner Tuning and would benefit anyone wishing to give their turbocharger an easier life or wishing to take advantage of the next stage in the remapping process.

Products:


1. 200001017 - BMW 335i Large Upgrade Intercooler Kit. RRP 670









This kit offered by Wagner Tuning consists of their largest intercooler and all necessary pipe work and adapters to allow this to fit to your vehicle. Full details are as follows:

"The Wagner Tuning BMW 335i Intercooler Evolution Kit is a high performance redesign of the original OEM intercooler designed specifically for the BMW Tuning Enthusiast.

Our engineers have increased the intercooler core size and efficiency, as well as improved the end tank design to remove any OEM bottlenecks, resulting in increased flow rating and charge cooling properties.

Constructed of the highest quality Bar and Plate intercooler cores combined with cast aluminium and then CNC end tanks for reliable high performance air to air charge cooling.

OEM+ Fit and finish for easy installation.

The Wagner Tuning BMW 335i Intercooler Upgrade Kit features:

- High-performance 520mm x 210mm x 150mm 13,572 cm flow rate stepped Intercooler Core vs. OEM 510mm x 130mm x 110mm 7293cm flow rate

- CAD / FEM optimized cast aluminium end tanks
- OEM Mounting Points
- 85% more intercooler face area vs. OEM
- 90% larger air flow vs. OEM

The Kit comes with:

- Intercooler black
- Inlet Silicone hose, HD
- Outlet Silicone hose
- Aluminium Adapter IC-Intake
- 1 Set 12mm Stainless Steel Norma Clamps

Note:- Vehicles equipped with the M-Package requires additional Labour for installation.
"

I have enquired about the extra labour needed for fitting this to M-Sport cars and the extra work consists of removing the bumper and trimming some of the shrouds to allow fitment of this large intercooler (as you would expect). On SE spec cars, the front bumper may also have to be removed to fit this.


2. 200001022 - BMW 335i Upgrade Intercooler. RRP 499















This intercooler is marginally smaller than the one offered in the kit however, it is a direct replacement for the OEM intercooler. It requires no cutting or modification to the car, it fits using OEM mounting points and hoses. This intercooler is just a straight swap for your OE unit and requires no more than removing the under tray and replacing the intercooler. I would go as far to say that this intercooler would not show inefficiency against its larger sibling unless pushed extremely hard for prolonged periods or if you were track focussed, either way its a massive improvement over your OE intercooler. Another benefit of this intercooler is for those with BMW warranty, its discreet and also easily removed and replaced with the OE unit should warranty work be needed on the car.

"- Stepped High Performance Intercooler Core with Turbulators
- Size 520 x 210 x130, 11.752cm Volume (OEM 510x130x110mm, 7293cm Volume)
- CAD/FEM optimized Aluminium Cast End tanks
- Plug & Play Installation using the stock plumbing
- No cutting or bumper removal required
"



Down Pipes:

500001002 - BMW 135i/1M /335i 76mm (3") Downpipe Kit N54 Engine. RRP 565








Finally, another 3" DP option available to us from 'this side of the pond'. Catless & quality stainless steel, what's more to say really.

"76mm (3") Diameter made from 1.4301 (SS304) Stainless Steel

No Catalytic Converter

1:1 exchange to OEM Units

Not to use on the Road, only for Track and Test

ECU need to be coded to avoid engine management light errors
"

Error codes would be eliminated by your piggyback or Stage 2 remap.


Duration:

The group buy will last four weeks, as tomorrow is the 1st May 2012 this will end on Thursday 31st May.


Pricing:

Current pricing reflects the current exchange rate between the GBP & Euro, of course this is changeable however, Wagner Tuning have offered to pass the saving on to us if there are any further price drops due to the Euro becoming weaker, meaning that the below prices may decrease further. On the other hand, Wagner Tuning will also NOT increase the price should the Euro become stronger at any time during the group buy, in plain you will not pay any more than the below stated prices for the duration of the group buy.

The structure is as follows:

- 5 people = -5%
- 10 people = -10%
- 15 people = -15%
- 20 people = possible further discount

Therefore, pricing for the large intercooler would be:

- 5 people = 636.50
- 10 people = 603
- 15 people = 569.50

+12 delivery per intercooler kit



Pricing for the direct replacement intercooler would be:

- 5 people = 474.05
- 10 people = 449.10
- 15 people = 424.15

+12 delivery per intercooler



Pricing for the DP's would be:
- 5 people = 536.75
- 10 people = 508.50
- 15 people = 480.25

+12 delivery per set of DP's



Payment:

Payment needs to be made at the same time as these intercoolers will be ordered directly from the factory in Germany in one bulk order. Wagner Tuning have agreed to take separate payments from each customer via bank transfer, they will then distribute your intercooler to your home address straight from the factory.

I will need you to PM me at the time of order:

- Your choice of intercooler
- Full Name
- Address
- Contact Telephone Number
- Email Address

The invoice (Full UK VAT receipt) will be emailed directly to you from Wagner Tuning.

Wagner Tuning have really gone above and beyond in all my correspondence with them, they really could not have been more helpful and I very much look forward to doing business with them.

I would like to mention that I am in no way affiliated with Wagner Tuning but I thought I'd try to pass on a saving to the members of this forum while also exposing a good quality and well performing product. If this GB falls flat then I will still be purchasing the direct swap intercooler for myself at RRP . I will then write a review of my no doubt positive experience + data logs at which point you may wish that youd taken advantage of this saving .

If you would like any further or more depth information about the products then please feel free to contact Wagner Tuning UK directly on 08456 446 536.

Once the end date has been reached, I will contact all members committed to the group buy and prompt you for your order information if you have not already supplied it (DO NOT GIVE ME YOUR BANK DETAILS!). Wagner Tuning will pass me the details of their bank so that you may pay them or alternately you could obtain these from them by giving them a call.

Post your thoughts and interest below.


I hope Ive been of help to some people.


1. JamJay - 200001022 Direct Replacement Intercooler
2. 'xxxx' - 200001017 Large Intercooler Kit
3. 'xxxx' - 500001002 Catless DP's
4.
5.

etc.

Last edited by Cozy; 05-12-2012 at 07:02 AM.
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      05-01-2012, 03:10 AM   #2
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Post #2 Reserved for updates and further information.

Here are some dyno plots showing cars with these fitted that have an N54 engine, both 1M & 335i selected here. The testing was done in Germany (as the company is German) therefore text is of course in German however, translation isn't too difficult. IATs show a drop and a direct comparison between 1M stock & 1M with Intercooler fitted (no tune, albeit a tune over the 335i) show an increase in BHP.

335i




1M




1M Stock Intercooler vs Wagner Tuning Intercooler




1M Intercooler & DP




1M Tune, Intercooler & DP





I see there have been many views of this thread. I would encourage anyone who looks at this thread with interest posts their thoughts, I can try and address your concerns or alternately Wagner will be able to help you but it's good to get some healthy discussion going.

Last edited by Cozy; 05-01-2012 at 02:51 PM.
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      05-01-2012, 03:35 AM   #3
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I looked at these intercoolers a while back, very nice piece of kit they are too IMO.

Didn't know they did DPs too.

Personally I didn't want a large IC unit requiring cutting etc, so I went for the ETS unit, but I would go for this GB on the regular size unit if I hadn't already got one.

Any bar and plate, solid metal intercooler is miles better than the lightweight factory unit with plastic ends etc.
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      05-01-2012, 03:39 AM   #4
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I've got 3" DPs already and a large FMIC but would like to make a point about the DPs. Until someone has fitted them I would be wary of fitment issues. Whilst they look quality, even a few mm's off and they'll touch. And as far as I'm aware, RHD cars have less clearance due to the steering rack which might be an issue.

FMIC does look good but it would be nice to see the difference in IATs between the two coolers and the original BMW one.

All said, it is good to see a variety of parts available over here for our cars.
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      05-01-2012, 03:49 AM   #5
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+1 on the DPs.

RHD cars do have much less room due to the rack.

Anyone who has seen up close the fitment of 3" DPs to a RHD car from underneath will know how ciggy-paper tight it is in there. (lol forum bleeped f-a-g)

Barely 2mm clearance in places.

Having had AR DPs before, at the mo i'd go for them again.
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      05-01-2012, 03:54 AM   #6
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Here is a good review on the FMIC from the general forums:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=679194
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      05-01-2012, 04:28 AM   #7
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On the ETS intercooler, a plus point for it was that it got rid of the factory couplers and used wide / smooth bore silicon pipes and mandrel bent charge pipe.

That said, I would go for this Wagner unit if I needed an FMIC.
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      05-01-2012, 05:05 AM   #8
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I guess there's never an easy way for a company to break into the market & I hope this GB helps them on the way. The posts I've read regarding the direct swap intercooler have all been very good, all reported consistent IAT drops, performance gains from the mid range with no real noticable lag low down. When compared to the similarly designed Helix intercooler which uses it's own couplers, there appeared to be no difference and the HPF intercooler which uses the OE couplers gets rave reviews.

There's no doubt that past a certain level of tune, the OE piping will be a restriction, it's not designed for 450+bhp but at what point would it be a restriction? I imagine Stage 3 (meth) perhaps but who really knows, the rest of the engine holds a tune so well I wouldn't be surprised if only at aftermarket turbo level a bottle neck might be exposed. I'm really excited to try the direct swap intercooler, even for those without a tune would stand to gain from this, especially in the Summer months.

As for the DP's, you're right, it's tight but I can't imagine that these would fail in that department. Someone with a RHD needs to try them to be sure, could it be me? We'll see how finances go but I will chat with Wagner Tuning and enquire about any test vehicles that they might have had. They've been absolutely brilliant so far, I'd imagine that if there were any problems then the customer support would go above an beyond.
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      05-01-2012, 06:30 AM   #9
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Their IC looks great, and like I said I'd buy one on this GB (if I hadn't already got another).

Can Wagner confirm any DP customers / fitment in RHD territories?

Saying that, Neil at Juicedup's basic single-pair list price is only 579 for the AR DP's which everyone knows are bob on, so at 565 for the Wagner pipes, I'd have to stick with AR.

Maybe a better discount from wagner on the DPs would help to get a foothold?
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      05-01-2012, 08:02 AM   #10
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I think its ironic that the GB I tried to organise was met with general disdain and this one has seen fairly positive discussion - I realise you weren't involved in the bullshit JamJay but it's still slightly annoying on reflection!

Anyway, I can only echo other peoples thoughts and perhaps give a more direct verdict. The Wagner isn't for me, which is nothing to do with it's quality etc - it's literally just because I believe the ETS is the best combination of reputability, price, fitment and performance.

My thoughts on the DP are exactly the same - why go with anyone other than AR without a significant or even worthwhile drop in price?

I wish you the best of luck mate, honestly, but I think we would have done better to combine our efforts and really make a GB worthwhile. As it happens now I can't be arsed even bothering to try help people out after the reaction I got.

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      05-01-2012, 09:04 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Their IC looks great, and like I said I'd buy one on this GB (if I hadn't already got another).

Can Wagner confirm any DP customers / fitment in RHD territories?

Saying that, Neil at Juicedup's basic single-pair list price is only 579 for the AR DP's which everyone knows are bob on, so at 565 for the Wagner pipes, I'd have to stick with AR.

Maybe a better discount from wagner on the DPs would help to get a foothold?
I'll have a word with them and see if they can chime in on the DP's or if I can dig out some toher info. I wasn;t looking elsewhere other than AR myself but it's nice to see another option like you say .

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
I think its ironic that the GB I tried to organise was met with general disdain and this one has seen fairly positive discussion - I realise you weren't involved in the bullshit JamJay but it's still slightly annoying on reflection!

Anyway, I can only echo other peoples thoughts and perhaps give a more direct verdict. The Wagner isn't for me, which is nothing to do with it's quality etc - it's literally just because I believe the ETS is the best combination of reputability, price, fitment and performance.

My thoughts on the DP are exactly the same - why go with anyone other than AR without a significant or even worthwhile drop in price?

I wish you the best of luck mate, honestly, but I think we would have done better to combine our efforts and really make a GB worthwhile. As it happens now I can't be arsed even bothering to try help people out after the reaction I got.

Regards
Matt
Sorry Matt, I really wasn't trying to steal your thunder. It really was a case of me looking at every avenue available to me and what was on the market for the best price, then considering bringing it to the attention of anyone else who might be interested. Previously I was after the ETS and I was prepared to pay the asking price for that from Neil, then I saw your GB thread and that I could save myself 20, sounds good to me as 20 in my pocket is 20 worth of fuel...great . I then came across a US member on here who was raving about the Wagner unit, I was put off initially as they only offered the large intercooler at that time and for warranty reasons/ease of installation it didn't work for me. I looked into it further and saw that they have recently developed a direct swap intercooler (the one the US chap brought to my attention) which fits the bill perfectly, I was all set to purchase one sometime this month or early next month after I've moved house.

For one reason or another I asked about the possibility of a GB for others who may be interested (I expected the direct swap to be popular for most people) and I thought that all of the information I had gathered would be a shame to waste. Speaking with Wagner, they really were quite happy to offer a GB as they are seeking publicity for their products so it was kind of a win/win providing 'X' number of customers could be sought. If nothing came of it, no-one would stand to lose anything and I guess at least Wagner have been discussed, they can use the feedback in this thread as they wish to develop further.

I wouldn't feel bad for posting up your GB, I know that it took effort on your part to even bring about organising it, it's just a shame that it was met with such disappointing response as it's a competetively priced product even without a 20 saving. If I hadn't come across Wagner's latest intercooler then I would have taken full advantage of the discount that you have organised .

Now what we have are three intercooler options for the 335i (+Forge but +), a deep cooler that requires no cutting with new couplers, a stepped intercooler that requires no cutting using OE couplers, both with around the same volume as far as I can tell and then a larger intercooler which requires some cutting due to its large size using new couplers. They aren't competitors so to speak, you either want to replace OE hoses or not, trim things or not/want the biggest intercooler so you make your choice and I have made mine based on that. I cannot see any drawbacks to using the Wagner intercooler at the level of tune my car will stop at (Stage 2+ Cobb) so I'm happy, but we all have different requirements and no doubt the more track-friendly E92/E90 would benefit from the bigger Wagner or ETS if you really were after each extra HP with meth etc and a TOTALLY smooth path for charge air was necessary.

Again, sorry if you took this as a step on your toes, not intended at all and I hope you enjoy the performance gains your ETS cooler will fetch you .

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      05-01-2012, 09:15 AM   #12
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Their fmic looks like a helix copy. Are these made in house or made in China?

Any test data available? After all no point replacing a stock intercooler without known and quantified performance gains..
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      05-01-2012, 09:34 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
I think its ironic that the GB I tried to organise was met with general disdain and this one has seen fairly positive discussion - I realise you weren't involved in the bullshit JamJay but it's still slightly annoying on reflection!

Anyway, I can only echo other peoples thoughts and perhaps give a more direct verdict. The Wagner isn't for me, which is nothing to do with it's quality etc - it's literally just because I believe the ETS is the best combination of reputability, price, fitment and performance.

My thoughts on the DP are exactly the same - why go with anyone other than AR without a significant or even worthwhile drop in price?

I wish you the best of luck mate, honestly, but I think we would have done better to combine our efforts and really make a GB worthwhile. As it happens now I can't be arsed even bothering to try help people out after the reaction I got.

Regards
Matt
I defended Neil and the prices in your groupbuy so you shouldn't take any offence from me or the others who posted in this thread. As you can see, all those who complained about the price your GB haven't post here.

End of the day you tried to help out the community and save them some money, they didn't want it so feck em.
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      05-01-2012, 09:55 AM   #14
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To clarify, I've no issue with ANY of the people who have posted in this thread so far!

Matt
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      05-01-2012, 02:34 PM   #15
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Another FMIC for us in the UK

Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
To clarify, I've no issue with ANY of the people who have posted in this thread so far!

Matt
Folks,

I recently spoke to Imran at Evolve abt their new FMIC for n54.

he offered a good price to supply and fit their FMIC and do some before and after runs on his rolling road.

Imran,

If you out there reading this would Evolve be up for a GB on the above ?

Dave.
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      05-01-2012, 03:09 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Their fmic looks like a helix copy. Are these made in house or made in China?

Any test data available? After all no point replacing a stock intercooler without known and quantified performance gains..
Graphs now in post #2.

I have spoken further with Wagner Tuning and they have given me the following information regarding the intercoolers.

"Our designs are created firstly by scanning the front of the car and the standard product using a FaroArm http://www.faro.com/content.aspx?ct=...ent=pro&item=2. Once the data is loaded into Solidworks http://www.solidworks.com/ we are able to see what space we have to work with in creating our product. All our endtank designs are first proven using computational FEM software, please see the below image for the 335i cooler, before being approved for prototyping and finally production.



All our products are designed, prototyped, tested and manufactured in Germany. Some of design, prototype and testing is now coming to the UK now that we have the UK side of the company and the US side will start to do all stages soon."

I agree that the Helix cooler looks similar but that's not to say that this is a rip off, who's to say that the design is theirs and TBH if a design work & works well, don't we want it?! The design of these intercoolers has come about by using all available space behind the front grille, hence the stepped design, it's literally using up all the space it can and giving the best cooling it can offer in that space.

I have talked in more detail regarding the RHD compatibility of the DP's, the plan looks as if my car will be the test mule for this just to make sure which I am very happy with. Enquiries have again been made with head office in Germany but it can't hurt to try it in real life. It might take a little while to organise fitting these so perhaps a separate GB could be used for the DP's at a later date once fitment is confirmed, that's something I'll clarify. I'll talk to Wagner Tuning again tomorrow about this and update as developments happen with the DP's but as far as the intercoolers go, they're ready for the group buy .
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      05-01-2012, 05:07 PM   #17
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The welds on those DPS look poor. Not enough filler and the bore matching is pretty much non existant.
Compare them to the AR and others.

On the I/C - the alloy weld on the end tanks looks to have been done by hand, and in about seven stages, you can see the stop/start 'blobs'.
A good welder will do it in two / three runs.
These parts are welded by amateurs.

And the tank end exits are not very a good design are they?
The exit tube is a sleeve welded over the end of the end-tank which is a casting.
So there is a rough and deep step on both hot and cold sides of the inside bore of this I/C.
They have also not taken a simple option to eliminate the poor oem 90deg bend in the cold side chargepipe.
ETS did a neat and simple job on that, and of course its a restriction.

Now, to be fair the alloy welds are not so bad and almost certainly won't fail.
But I wouldn't trust those DPs on my car - If someone sent me those they would go right back the supplier for a refund.
Failing DPS on a N54 is a royal PITA to fix. Those welds look weak to me.

Not a patch on the ETS / AR quailty IMO, nor several others.
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      05-02-2012, 09:21 AM   #18
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Some exciting discussions happening with Wagner Tuning today and some new photos to be uploaded this evening showing the bar & plate direct swap intercooler, it looks great! As for the DP's, also a revised design now available, tidier welds for those which it bothers, they will also be fitted to a UK RHD car to prove fitment. Updates as it happens...
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      05-02-2012, 01:43 PM   #19
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Never heard of them before...How does it compare to the other IC on the market? Any links to the reviews from the US?
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      05-02-2012, 01:44 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RagingKileak View Post
I think its ironic that the GB I tried to organise was met with general disdain and this one has seen fairly positive discussion - I realise you weren't involved in the bullshit JamJay but it's still slightly annoying on reflection!

Anyway, I can only echo other peoples thoughts and perhaps give a more direct verdict. The Wagner isn't for me, which is nothing to do with it's quality etc - it's literally just because I believe the ETS is the best combination of reputability, price, fitment and performance.

My thoughts on the DP are exactly the same - why go with anyone other than AR without a significant or even worthwhile drop in price?

I wish you the best of luck mate, honestly, but I think we would have done better to combine our efforts and really make a GB worthwhile. As it happens now I can't be arsed even bothering to try help people out after the reaction I got.

Regards
Matt
Chill out Matt!...

you seem very moody lately!
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      05-02-2012, 01:48 PM   #21
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New intercooler pics added to post #1.
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      05-02-2012, 03:42 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamJay View Post
As for the DP's, also a revised design now available, tidier welds for those which it bothers
Ok

Just for you, I will qualify my comments.

I 'was' a time served Coppersmith/Welder (hi-tech pipe fitter)
I worked on warships and nuclear subs, designing, making and welding pipework by hand.

Then after moving to factory maintenance jobs, was maintaining and programming ABB welding robots for a living.

So, I know a rough weld job when I see one.

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