E90Post
 


ECS BMW
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Tracking, Autocrossing, Dragstrip, Driving Techniques > On to an E36 M3



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      05-26-2012, 06:26 PM   #1
jbass524
Captain
 
Drives: 1995 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Norcal

Posts: 982
iTrader: (2)

On to an E36 M3

I recently purchased an E36 M3 after 6 months of not being on track with my 335. The 335, as we all know, is finicky and as you progress with your driving it, often, can't hold up. I had ER OCs, no tune, but it was an AT. I didn't see any way to make it track worthy, hence, the M3.

This is a little comparison. I just drove my stock (just had ARC-8s with NT01s) E36 M3 with 209,000 on it at Infineon. Lots of clean laps so the times are a great indicator of it's track worthiness and cost.

Comparing to a 335 with TC Kline DA sus., Code 3 Intercooler, ER race OCs, R888s, StopTech BBK, full chassis setup with M3 bits and bushings. I probably spent 70,000 on mods and the service.

I paid 5,200 for the E36 and put another 5,400 in to make sure it was track worthy: ARC-8s, NT01s, fluids, worn bits, and a brake rebuild including race pads and SS lines. That's it.

The times:
  • 335 - 1:57.4
  • M3 - 1:57:8

The feeling:
You are so much more connected to the driving with the M3. It's raw and I love the MT. Everything feels so uninsulated when compared. The soft suspension with stock is a challenge but that's part of driving.

My max speed was 107 MPH where w/ the 335 it was always above 115. That means the E36 is that much better in the corners than the 335, even with basic suspension.

I can only imagine what it would be like with the same suspension as I had on the 335.

I thought you all should know.
jbass524 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2012, 06:37 PM   #2
meepster
Private First Class
 
Drives: '07 335i
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bay Area

Posts: 181
iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524
I recently purchased an E36 M3 after 6 months of not being on track with my 335. The 335, as we all know, is finicky and as you progress with your driving it, often, can't hold up. I had ER OCs, no tune, but it was an AT. I didn't see any way to make it track worthy, hence, the M3.

This is a little comparison. I just drove my stock (just had ARC-8s with NT01s) E36 M3 with 209,000 on it at Infineon. Lots of clean laps so the times are a great indicator of it's track worthiness and cost.

Comparing to a 335 with TC Kline DA sus., Code 3 Intercooler, ER race OCs, R888s, StopTech BBK, full chassis setup with M3 bits and bushings. I probably spent 70,000 on mods and the service.

I paid 5,200 for the E36 and put another 5,400 in to make sure it was track worthy: ARC-8s, NT01s, fluids, worn bits, and a brake rebuild including race pads and SS lines. That's it.

The times:
  • 335 - 1:57.4
  • M3 - 1:57:8

The feeling:
You are so much more connected to the driving with the M3. It's raw and I love the MT. Everything feels so uninsulated when compared. The soft suspension with stock is a challenge but that's part of driving.

My max speed was 107 MPH where w/ the 335 it was always above 115. That means the E36 is that much better in the corners than the 335, even with basic suspension.

I can only imagine what it would be like with the same suspension as I had on the 335.

I thought you all should know.
While I paid a bit more for my m3 and spent a lot less on my 335i, totally agree. My laptimes in the m3 are definitely faster - though I've gotten better at driving for sure. Running the 335i on the east coast now and hit limp on my first time out (manual with ec coolers) though not due to temps. Wish I had an E36 out here for the track...
meepster is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2012, 06:57 PM   #3
jbass524
Captain
 
Drives: 1995 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Norcal

Posts: 982
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by meepster View Post
While I paid a bit more for my m3 and spent a lot less on my 335i, totally agree. My laptimes in the m3 are definitely faster - though I've gotten better at driving for sure. Running the 335i on the east coast now and hit limp on my first time out (manual with ec coolers) though not due to temps. Wish I had an E36 out here for the track...
But yours came with a bunch of stuff I have to buy.

Yep, the 335 can go into limp for so many things.
jbass524 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2012, 07:11 PM   #4
Mwishlist
Private First Class
 
Mwishlist's Avatar
 
Drives: 2008 328i
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: United States

Posts: 158
iTrader: (0)

That's good to hear on the track times. I am actually not a fan of the way the e36's look, but I was thinking of buying one next year for a project car. They are dirt cheap right now and considerably lighter.
__________________
Interviewer: The most exciting moment during the race weekend?
Kimi: I think so it's the race start, always.
Interviewer: The most boring?
Kimi: Now.
Mwishlist is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-26-2012, 07:16 PM   #5
mid-corner fun
Major
 
Drives: e92
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: NE

Posts: 1,393
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
But yours came with a bunch of stuff I have to buy.

Yep, the 335 can go into limp for so many things.
it can also surprise you and not go into limp mode. I've been running hard at HPDE4 all day today at 86F and not a single freaking limp mode. 2 months ago it limped on every other session under much better conditions. finicky as you said.

This is my last year tracking the 335. Most upgrades come off at the end of the season, that'll be my incentive to get a proper setup going over the winter.

E36 M3s rule at the turns, weight > power.
mid-corner fun is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2012, 10:55 AM   #6
kenneth
Major General
 
kenneth's Avatar
 
Drives: 335i Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Montreal

Posts: 8,630
iTrader: (13)

JB your conclusion is quite logic, 335 has 4-500 lbs disadvantage compared to the e36 M3. That is enormous for the bends!
__________________
SB, Terra, 6MT. Only a few mods here and there.....nothing extreme!
kenneth is offline   Canada
0
Reply With Quote
      05-27-2012, 06:34 PM   #7
Autobahn335i
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Autobahn335i's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Luxembourg

Posts: 1,598
iTrader: (5)

E36 M3 is definitely on my list as a tracktool...someday...

Making the 335i trackready means alot of $$$ to burn! Brakes, cooling, chassis...everything needs to be upgraded.

BTW, do you have an LSD in your 335i? That makes a world of a difference.

I really enjoy the auto transmission with the DCT paddles on the track. But I think a tranny cooler is what our 6AT cars miss badly.
__________________
Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Íhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Powerflex Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
Autobahn335i is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 07:35 AM   #8
CJ421
Brigadier General
 
CJ421's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PA

Posts: 3,257
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335i  [4.66]
If I had to do everything again I'm not sure I'd get a different car than the 335 ... it's just been so fun to mod.

Reading your post - good thing I haven't driven an E36.
__________________
2011 BMW E92 335i, 6MT, Le Mans blue - Quaife LSD, JRZ RS Pro, JRZ camber plates, Eibach ERS, full M3 susp, custom toe arms, Powergrid end-links, SS brake lines, brake ducting, Michelin PSS, UUC SSK, ETS FMIC, ER CP, Perf. Exhaust, VAC RSIK, Sparcos; work by VAC Motorsports in Philadelphia
CJ421 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 09:48 AM   #9
Autobahn335i
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Autobahn335i's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Luxembourg

Posts: 1,598
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
If I had to do everything again I'm not sure I'd get a different car than the 335 ... it's just been so fun to mod.

Reading your post - good thing I haven't driven an E36.
Hehe yes the modding is alot of fun. And if you don't have the space to keep a dedicated track car, there are not many other cars on the market which offer so much fun in daily driving, yet can be taken to the track.
__________________
Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Íhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Powerflex Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
Autobahn335i is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 10:20 AM   #10
CJ421
Brigadier General
 
CJ421's Avatar
 
Drives: 2011 E92 335i
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: PA

Posts: 3,257
iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2011 BMW 335i  [4.66]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
Hehe yes the modding is alot of fun. And if you don't have the space to keep a dedicated track car, there are not many other cars on the market which offer so much fun in daily driving, yet can be taken to the track.
Agreed! I really like the concept of taking your daily street car onto the track.
__________________
2011 BMW E92 335i, 6MT, Le Mans blue - Quaife LSD, JRZ RS Pro, JRZ camber plates, Eibach ERS, full M3 susp, custom toe arms, Powergrid end-links, SS brake lines, brake ducting, Michelin PSS, UUC SSK, ETS FMIC, ER CP, Perf. Exhaust, VAC RSIK, Sparcos; work by VAC Motorsports in Philadelphia
CJ421 is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 10:51 AM   #11
jbass524
Captain
 
Drives: 1995 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Norcal

Posts: 982
iTrader: (2)

Don't get me wrong, the 335 introduced me to the track and I learned a ton. You can just get to a point in your driving where you either truly build the 335 or move onto something else. Your financial situation plays a giant part in that decision.
jbass524 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 01:14 PM   #12
Autobahn335i
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Autobahn335i's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Luxembourg

Posts: 1,598
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the 335 introduced me to the track and I learned a ton. You can just get to a point in your driving where you either truly build the 335 or move onto something else. Your financial situation plays a giant part in that decision.
The dilemna is that pretty much everything you want on a track car is the opposite of what you need on the street. You'd want stiffer bushings, dampers, weight reduction, roll cage to strengthen the chassis etc. Not very suitable for daily driving in the end.

At one point you're indeed better off investing into a dedicated track car. And the E36 M3 sure is fun and affordable.
__________________
Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Íhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Powerflex Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
Autobahn335i is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 08:55 PM   #13
Killerfish2012
Major
 
Drives: E90 335I, E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,251
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
it can also surprise you and not go into limp mode. I've been running hard at HPDE4 all day today at 86F and not a single freaking limp mode. 2 months ago it limped on every other session under much better conditions. finicky as you said.

This is my last year tracking the 335. Most upgrades come off at the end of the season, that'll be my incentive to get a proper setup going over the winter.

E36 M3s rule at the turns, weight > power.
It'll be sad to see you go Peter, but I wish you happier times in whatever car you choose to make your track car. It sure was fun building up the Limp mode thread with you.

So far I've been to 2 track events this year, and haven't gotten a single Limp mode yet. Replace the vanos solenoids, and finally got my cooling figured out. The endless upgradeability of the 335I is what is making me keep it. I've now finally figured out how the car works. I'm adding a catless dp, and FMIC, and then it's on to a wavetrack LSD.
__________________
E90 335I: FBO +wavetrac LSD
E92 M3: K&N, V1, Yokohama AD08
Killerfish2012 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 09:00 PM   #14
Killerfish2012
Major
 
Drives: E90 335I, E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,251
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
I really enjoy the auto transmission with the DCT paddles on the track. But I think a tranny cooler is what our 6AT cars miss badly.
It would be nice, but not really needed IMHO. Unless you're pushing some serious power, in which case, the temps won't even matter, cuz the tranny will die anyways from the torque. The radiator does a fine job of keeping the trans temps well below 110C. There's a guy whose tranny failed and they pulled the data from the life time of the trans, and even at the track, the trans temps were 110C for an hour, at the nurburgring, but never over.
__________________
E90 335I: FBO +wavetrac LSD
E92 M3: K&N, V1, Yokohama AD08
Killerfish2012 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-28-2012, 09:03 PM   #15
Killerfish2012
Major
 
Drives: E90 335I, E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,251
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by jbass524 View Post
Don't get me wrong, the 335 introduced me to the track and I learned a ton. You can just get to a point in your driving where you either truly build the 335 or move onto something else. Your financial situation plays a giant part in that decision.
I'm currently happy, cuz I wanted a compromise. You are right, in that I spent a small fortune on my car, before it was track worthy, but luckily, the track was not my only reason for buying it. I needed 4 doors, RWD, high torque, and good highway gas mileage. I also needed a car I could track occasionally. My next setup would probably be a C6 vette, for the track, and a beater civic for the winter.
__________________
E90 335I: FBO +wavetrac LSD
E92 M3: K&N, V1, Yokohama AD08
Killerfish2012 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2012, 11:55 AM   #16
Autobahn335i
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Autobahn335i's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Luxembourg

Posts: 1,598
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
It would be nice, but not really needed IMHO. Unless you're pushing some serious power, in which case, the temps won't even matter, cuz the tranny will die anyways from the torque. The radiator does a fine job of keeping the trans temps well below 110C. There's a guy whose tranny failed and they pulled the data from the life time of the trans, and even at the track, the trans temps were 110C for an hour, at the nurburgring, but never over.
I was mainly hoping that a tranny cooler would keep overall coolant temps a bit lower and take load off from the radiator. Is your car an AT?

Just saw that you have a low temp thermostat and the 1M waterpump. What is your impression about those parts?
__________________
Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Íhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Powerflex Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
Autobahn335i is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2012, 03:10 PM   #17
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
 
Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 3,398
iTrader: (4)

wait, are you saying you spent $70,000 on the 335i including mods??

or was that a typo and it was supposed to be $7,000 on mods only?


Either way, the E36 definitely gives you more bang for the buck for the track.
mike-y is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2012, 03:47 PM   #18
jbass524
Captain
 
Drives: 1995 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Norcal

Posts: 982
iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike-y View Post
wait, are you saying you spent $70,000 on the 335i including mods??

or was that a typo and it was supposed to be $7,000 on mods only?


Either way, the E36 definitely gives you more bang for the buck for the track.
The $50,000 car + mods + installs + bad mods = yep!
jbass524 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-29-2012, 09:15 PM   #19
Killerfish2012
Major
 
Drives: E90 335I, E92 M3
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Midwest

Posts: 1,251
iTrader: (3)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
I was mainly hoping that a tranny cooler would keep overall coolant temps a bit lower and take load off from the radiator. Is your car an AT?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Autobahn335i View Post
Just saw that you have a low temp thermostat and the 1M waterpump. What is your impression about those parts?
BIG difference in engine temps.
__________________
E90 335I: FBO +wavetrac LSD
E92 M3: K&N, V1, Yokohama AD08
Killerfish2012 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2012, 10:54 AM   #20
Autobahn335i
Lieutenant Colonel
 
Autobahn335i's Avatar
 
Drives: E92 335i
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Luxembourg

Posts: 1,598
iTrader: (5)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Killerfish2012 View Post
Yes.

BIG difference in engine temps.
Do you have parts numbers for those? I remember there was a thread about this stuff, but I can't seem to find it.
__________________
Performance Seats, Exhaust, Splitters, Pedals, Steering Wheel / RB Turbos / M3 CF Roof / Brembo GT BBK 355/345 / Rollcage / Forge FMIC / Quaife LSD / Íhlins Road & Track / M3 Suspension Parts / Powerflex Bushings / Vorshlag Camberplates / Megan Racing Toe Links / LeatherZ Gauges / Extended M3 DCT Paddles / ER Sports OC / AR OC / Aux Radiator / AR DPs / Alpina TCU / COBB Pro-Tune
Autobahn335i is offline   Luxembourg
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2012, 11:57 AM   #21
jbass524
Captain
 
Drives: 1995 E36 M3
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Norcal

Posts: 982
iTrader: (2)

Tranny cooler? Low temp thermostat? Excessive engine temps? Now I only worry about aging bushings and a motor that is probably at 75% power but it's almost as fast. I feel liberated.

The car following me is a nicely prepped E92 M3. Good thing it was the last lap

Last edited by jbass524; 05-30-2012 at 12:17 PM.
jbass524 is offline  
0
Reply With Quote
      05-30-2012, 12:17 PM   #22
mike-y
just another bmw douche bag
 
Drives: 1.9L of fury
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Posts: 3,398
iTrader: (4)

heh, nice work. The E36 M3 sounds like a pretty good example of "Less is More"
mike-y is offline   United_States
0
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:07 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST