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      05-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #617
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I i didnt post this before warranted units are on sale for 399

Imo for this product new vs remanufactured is no different
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      05-21-2012, 04:04 PM   #618
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Are you MS-8 owners able to drive your amps to clipping and still have absolute silence from your front tweeters with the measly 2V outs of the MS-8?

I can't get my Arc Audio Mini amps to clip with the supposed 4 volt outs of the Audison Bit One (the Bit One clips before the amps do). If I turn up the gains up the Arcs even just a tiny bit I get hiss from the front tweeters.

Thanks

PS this is without using any external controller for volume control and only using the head unit as volume control, necessitating having the sound processor (MS-8 or Bit One) at or near max volume at all times.
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      05-29-2012, 01:10 PM   #619
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I posted this over at DIYMA, but wanted to add this as well. So after a marathon weekend of 36 hours on the car, I have my MS-8-based system installed. Here's the rundown:

2010 BMW 535i with the Hi-Fi stereo option
Technic harness provides full range RCA outputs from iDrive
JL 600/4 + 900/5 provides 150 x 5 +100 x 2 + 500 x 1
Morel Hybrid Ovation 4s in the doors (passive)
Morel Integra Ovation 4 in the center channel spot (passive)
Jenhert XE200s (8") under the seats
Morel Tempo 4" co-ax in the rear (passive)
JL Stealthbox (12w6)

Right now it's setup like this:
Sub - 80 Hz
Front - 2 way - 200 Hz
Center - 1 way - 200 Hz
Rears - 100 Hz
No sides - everything at 24db/octave slopes

Like most BMWs, the midbass is currently non-existent and the sub is too loud. As a result, it sounds really "honky" and "nasal." I started with all of the gains pegged to the lowest level on the amps. I upped the midbass amp gain post-calibration and things got a little better, but the front stage is not all that defined - it's a little smeared. Perhaps I should cover the tweeters during the first set of sweeps and see if that helps things out. I'm also going to raise the subwoofer gain and see if that will help the MS-8 boost the midbass.

Looks like I have lots of experimenting to do, but so far so good. Unfortunately, I have a slight hint of alternator whine as well
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      05-29-2012, 01:50 PM   #620
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
I posted this over at DIYMA, but wanted to add this as well. So after a marathon weekend of 36 hours on the car, I have my MS-8-based system installed. Here's the rundown:

2010 BMW 535i with the Hi-Fi stereo option
Technic harness provides full range RCA outputs from iDrive
JL 600/4 + 900/5 provides 150 x 5 +100 x 2 + 500 x 1
Morel Hybrid Ovation 4s in the doors (passive)
Morel Integra Ovation 4 in the center channel spot (passive)
Jenhert XE200s (8") under the seats
Morel Tempo 4" co-ax in the rear (passive)
JL Stealthbox (12w6)

Right now it's setup like this:
Sub - 80 Hz
Front - 2 way - 200 Hz
Center - 1 way - 200 Hz
Rears - 100 Hz
No sides - everything at 24db/octave slopes

Like most BMWs, the midbass is currently non-existent and the sub is too loud. As a result, it sounds really "honky" and "nasal." I started with all of the gains pegged to the lowest level on the amps. I upped the midbass amp gain post-calibration and things got a little better, but the front stage is not all that defined - it's a little smeared. Perhaps I should cover the tweeters during the first set of sweeps and see if that helps things out. I'm also going to raise the subwoofer gain and see if that will help the MS-8 boost the midbass.

Looks like I have lots of experimenting to do, but so far so good. Unfortunately, I have a slight hint of alternator whine as well
Try:

- Skip input setup
- Front 2-way at 150Hz at 12db
- Center and rear at 150Hz at 24dB
- Calibrate at 35dB with all amp gains at minimum. Go all the way to 40dB if you have to. However, the nicer it will sound the more Bluetooth echo you will have.
- After calibration, set mid channels gain to 12 o'clock or mid point. That should give you the midbass back; go to the 31-band EQ and adjust those bands only if you still want a little more.
- The sub should sound good with these settings, however bumping the sub level will bump the midbass as well.
- Change your ground to the OEM point close to the OEM amp if you have not done so. That whine is the ground being loose or weak.
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      05-29-2012, 02:26 PM   #621
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Technic View Post
Try:

- Skip input setup
- Front 2-way at 150Hz at 12db
- Center and rear at 150Hz at 24dB
- Calibrate at 35dB with all amp gains at minimum. Go all the way to 40dB if you have to. However, the nicer it will sound the more Bluetooth echo you will have.
- After calibration, set mid channels gain to 12 o'clock or mid point. That should give you the midbass back; go to the 31-band EQ and adjust those bands only if you still want a little more.
- The sub should sound good with these settings, however bumping the sub level will bump the midbass as well.
I'm assuming you mean midbass gains? I'll give this a shot tonight.

Quote:
- Change your ground to the OEM point close to the OEM amp if you have not done so. That whine is the ground being loose or weak.
The amps and processor are grounded to the factory battery ground in the trunk using 0/1 ga wire. It then travels to a distribution block where I go 4 ga to the amps and 8 ga to the processor. Are you suggesting that I connect the ground distribution block to the factory amplifier ground on the driver's side of the car? I guess I can throw a 4ga wire between the two and see what happens.

Having that stealthbox means the whole thing has to come out though - bummer.
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      05-29-2012, 02:33 PM   #622
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Make sure that the RCAs and ground wires are as far away from each other as possible, especially directly at the amp.

Edit: This also goes for the midbass amp, not just the hi/mid amp!!!
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      05-29-2012, 02:37 PM   #623
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Make sure that the RCAs and ground wires are as far away from each other as possible, especially directly at the amp.

Edit: This also goes for the midbass amp, not just the hi/mid amp!!!
That is impossible. The processor, amps, and fused distribution are all crammed into a 14 x 34 amp rack under the rear shelf.

In my experience, alternator whine is related to poor grounds rather than some kind of induced noise. What's odd is that the factory system even had a little noise in it too. It's not unbearable right now.
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      05-29-2012, 02:37 PM   #624
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
I'm assuming you mean midbass gains? I'll give this a shot tonight.
Yes, go to the HD amp channels connected to the underseat woofers and set the gain on those two channels to mid point. The midbass is there, but the MS-8 output is absurdly low to those channels...

Quote:
The amps and processor are grounded to the factory battery ground in the trunk using 0/1 ga wire. It then travels to a distribution block where I go 4 ga to the amps and 8 ga to the processor. Are you suggesting that I connect the ground distribution block to the factory amplifier ground on the driver's side of the car? I guess I can throw a 4ga wire between the two and see what happens.
Yes, eliminate as many ground cables and junctions as possible.

Quote:
Having that stealthbox means the whole thing has to come out though - bummer.
Test first and then install... shit happens.
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      05-29-2012, 02:44 PM   #625
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
That is impossible. The processor, amps, and fused distribution are all crammed into a 14 x 34 amp rack under the rear shelf.

In my experience, alternator whine is related to poor grounds rather than some kind of induced noise. What's odd is that the factory system even had a little noise in it too. It's not unbearable right now.
In my experience, with the same amps and same processor, if you have RCA plugs in the vicinity of ground wires, you WILL have induced noise.
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      05-29-2012, 03:02 PM   #626
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
That is impossible. The processor, amps, and fused distribution are all crammed into a 14 x 34 amp rack under the rear shelf.

In my experience, alternator whine is related to poor grounds rather than some kind of induced noise. What's odd is that the factory system even had a little noise in it too. It's not unbearable right now.
In my experience, with the same amps and same processor, if you have RCA plugs in the vicinity of ground wires, you WILL have induced noise.
How close are we talking?
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      05-29-2012, 03:29 PM   #627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
That is impossible. The processor, amps, and fused distribution are all crammed into a 14 x 34 amp rack under the rear shelf.

In my experience, alternator whine is related to poor grounds rather than some kind of induced noise. What's odd is that the factory system even had a little noise in it too. It's not unbearable right now.
In my experience, with the same amps and same processor, if you have RCA plugs in the vicinity of ground wires, you WILL have induced noise.
How close are we talking?
No closer than the connections are at the amp. In other words, don't run the ground wire to the left past the RCA connectors, rather to the right or straight out.
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      05-29-2012, 04:09 PM   #628
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The grounds run adjacent to some of the RCAs for a few inches. There is no way to avoid this.
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      05-29-2012, 04:16 PM   #629
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Quote:
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The grounds run adjacent to some of the RCAs for a few inches. There is no way to avoid this.
Depends on your install. If you mount the amps stacked you can definitely avoid any crossing of the wires.

I'm interested in your amp rack. Care to post some pics?
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      05-29-2012, 04:28 PM   #630
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Depends on your install. If you mount the amps stacked you can definitely avoid any crossing of the wires.

I'm interested in your amp rack. Care to post some pics?
Sure, I can throw them up later or tomorrow. In my install, there is no real way to avoid this. Take a look at this quick drawing. The RCA's and speaker wires all come in from the left (driver's side) and the power/ground come in from the right. There is no room to get the RCA's (on the bottom of the ms-8) over to the amplifier without passing the grounds. In theory, I could pass them all in front of the amplifiers, but that opens up some different issues.
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      05-29-2012, 04:38 PM   #631
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
No closer than the connections are at the amp. In other words, don't run the ground wire to the left [edit: right] past the RCA connectors, rather to the right or straight out.
To put this in pictures:
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      05-29-2012, 04:52 PM   #632
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
Sure, I can throw them up later or tomorrow. In my install, there is no real way to avoid this. Take a look at this quick drawing. The RCA's and speaker wires all come in from the left (driver's side) and the power/ground come in from the right. There is no room to get the RCA's (on the bottom of the ms-8) over to the amplifier without passing the grounds. In theory, I could pass them all in front of the amplifiers, but that opens up some different issues.
How about like this?
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      05-29-2012, 05:13 PM   #633
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Take a look at these quick (and crappy) snapshots. There's just no room for that kind of wire management. On top of that (and as I'm sure you are aware), the front of the amps house the gain controls, so they have to remain accessible.

I have not determined if the noise is coming from all or some of the channels. That's the next step in the troubleshooting.

Here's what I'm working with. It's really the only logical layout that I could determine. given the space constraints. It doesn't seem this messy in person, I'm actually a little embarrassed at these shots, but here's where I'm at.
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      05-29-2012, 05:15 PM   #634
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Quote:
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How about like this?
Won't work - the RCA in and RCA out on the MS8 are on opposite sides of the processor. No matter what, you will run a power/ground past an RCA plug.

My passive for the center channel is tucked up where the oem amp used to sit. There is the potential that it is picking up some noise as well.
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      05-29-2012, 05:32 PM   #635
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
Won't work - the RCA in and RCA out on the MS8 are on opposite sides of the processor. No matter what, you will run a power/ground past an RCA plug.

My passive for the center channel is tucked up where the oem amp used to sit. There is the potential that it is picking up some noise as well.
I see. You don't have much real estate to work with. Perhaps that is not the best location for the MS-8...

Also, those two amps will generate quite a bit of heat and the MS-8 is sharing the same air space. You may want to keep an eye on temps.

And yes, the passives in the trunk could be picking up EMF.

It's not easy with our cars!
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      05-29-2012, 05:55 PM   #636
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
I see. You don't have much real estate to work with. Perhaps that is not the best location for the MS-8...

Also, those two amps will generate quite a bit of heat and the MS-8 is sharing the same air space. You may want to keep an eye on temps.

And yes, the passives in the trunk could be picking up EMF.

It's not easy with our cars!
See what I mean? There's really no other stealthy spot for all this gear. It won't all fit in the spare tire well without giving up the spare and getting that amount of wires into and out of the well in a 5 series would be a real challenge.

You are right about the temperatures. I have a few squirrel fans that I had planned on hooking up if it becomes an issue.
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      06-07-2012, 10:25 AM   #637
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MS-8 still sucking arse after MANY attempts

I am totally frustrated with the state of my MS-8 install. Midbass missing. Fronts & center sound cupped, like I put a plastic cup without a bottom on each driver. Sub bloated & one-notey. Mid woofs sound over-driven, even at modestly high volume. Get power on and off pops sporadically. Just terrible and no I am not exaggerating.
System:
-Focal fronts & coax center
-Kicker midwoofs under seats
-Custom 10" sub
-Rear & side wired in series together
-JL 4-CH amp driving sub & midwoofs (crossovers out)
-LOC feeding turn on to MS-8 which feeds amp turn on
-2007 335i E90 L7 iDrive

What I have tried in my 50 or so calibration attempts over several months:
-Fronts set-up as 2-way with midwoofs. Crossover points from 150-200Hz. Slopes of 12-24dB. (ranges mean many points in between tried also)
-Center and side/rear crossover of 150-200Hz and 12-24dB
-Sub crossover of 50-120Hz, crossover of 12-24dB
-Sub unhooked, in back seat, and in trunk for calibration
-Amp gains from zero to mid point during calibration
-Calibration level from -45 to -20

I installed the drivers first- sound was pretty damn nice at that point. Can't even get the SQ to near that level since the MS-8 was added. And I am an old hand at audio and calibration - I was even professionally trained at it!!!!

I have spent hours on the DIYMA thread and here and tried all sorts of suggestions (from Andy W, Technic, VP Elec, Kaigoss, etc)- the fundamental problems with the MS-8 are never overcome. How can it possibly be this terrible? Are other folks having a case of the emperor's clothes as to the MS-8s effectiveness? Isn't the core feature of the MS-8 AUTO calibration????? If you have to come and hack it into something resembling smooth FR with the EQ post calibration isn't that a statement on how pathetic this product is?

If anyone is in the Denver/Boulder area I'd love to hear an E90 L7 install that is supposedly at least good 'cause I'm really frickin skeptical at this point. Pulled out a lovely Zapco install (no issues) in favor of this and really regretting it.

Thanks for any ideas, 'cause I'm out other than yank it and dump it on fleabay.
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      06-07-2012, 11:20 AM   #638
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SVO, try to leave the sub out of the equation for now. I suspect the Focals are too inefficient to be run by the MS-8. So try to run the underseats to about 40hz, set the highpass for the components and coax to 200hz (all 24 db/oct) and see if you can get a decent calibration.
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