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      06-07-2012, 11:28 AM   #639
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I know this is obvious so please dont take offense, but are you SURE that all of your phase relationships are correct between all the drivers? Its easy to assume you did everything right but overlook something simple.

Im also a "pro" and I struggled with the MS-8 until I went back to basics with my system and worked out all the phase relationships taking into account the various crossovers in my system, I ended up reversing the polarity of my underseats because of an amp crossover messing things up (RTA showed a dip as well) and then used to the "Kaigoss workaround" for the sub calibration. Now everything sounds great.....basically once I found "the method" for my setup I was able to get consistent, good sounding results.....but getting there was definitely a challenge.

Kaigoss also has a good point about efficiency.....the MS-8 doesnt put out a ton of power....it works great with the relatively efficient L7 speakers, but maybe not so good with your Focals.
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      06-07-2012, 11:54 AM   #640
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I would also suggest going with the KISS principle. Setup just the front door speakers and underseats and see if you can get those working. Once that is done, work on integrating the rears/center/subs.

The MS-8 does great work so long as you play by some general rules. If you are violating the rules, the MS-8 doesn't know how to resolve them.

Good luck
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      06-07-2012, 01:00 PM   #641
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For what it's worth, I have my system working fairly well now. I've used a little lower crossover points than I mentioned earlier, but it's coming together. The main issue has been setting the midbass gain after calibration.

I also tend to swap keys on my car - I ran a calibration with one key in and all tone set to flat. When I got in the car with the next key, I had my old tone changes in there and everything sounded all screwy - so a word to the wise - verify the tone/balance controls are centered before you run any calibrations!!

The only issue I have right now is a lack of subbass. I'm moving plenty of air, but there's a lack of impact. I'm fairly certain that it is a phase issue - so I'll work on sorting that out next. I also think that I'm going to relocate all the gear to the spare tire well, but I'll have to wait on that mod for a bit.

The MS-8 does a great job of presenting a high stage with pretty good depth. Some songs sound very veiled, but others are great - I'm not sure what that's about, but overall - I'm pretty happy.
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      06-08-2012, 08:55 AM   #642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
SVO, try to leave the sub out of the equation for now. I suspect the Focals are too inefficient to be run by the MS-8. So try to run the underseats to about 40hz, set the highpass for the components and coax to 200hz (all 24 db/oct) and see if you can get a decent calibration.
90dB efficiency at 4 ohm on the fronts. (subjectively very close to stock) That almost certainly is not it, but I'll give it a shot. Eliminating everything between 40 and 200Hz? How would I bring that back after calibration while retaining the calibration?
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      06-08-2012, 09:13 AM   #643
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I know this is obvious so please dont take offense, but are you SURE that all of your phase relationships are correct between all the drivers? Its easy to assume you did everything right but overlook something simple.

Im also a "pro" and I struggled with the MS-8 until I went back to basics with my system and worked out all the phase relationships taking into account the various crossovers in my system, I ended up reversing the polarity of my underseats because of an amp crossover messing things up (RTA showed a dip as well) and then used to the "Kaigoss workaround" for the sub calibration. Now everything sounds great.....basically once I found "the method" for my setup I was able to get consistent, good sounding results.....but getting there was definitely a challenge.

Kaigoss also has a good point about efficiency.....the MS-8 doesnt put out a ton of power....it works great with the relatively efficient L7 speakers, but maybe not so good with your Focals.
The phasing is a good point- unfortunately quadruple checked already.

Seems to me most folks on here had to a ton of monkeying with the system to find something they find okay to good, but still have smaller issues and reservations. And then the Bluetooth can be severely compromised in order to get a good calibration.

Simply does not compute with me. Either there is something big that I messed in my install or lots of rationalization going on with this product or my unit is defective (doubtful).
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      06-08-2012, 09:48 AM   #644
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I would add that because I have the Technic harness, it is a simple matter to swap back and cut out the MS-8 and the JL amp and sub. I have gone back and fourth a few times to be certain that I'm hearing what I think I'm hearing. Yup, I am.

There was lots of opinions (Andy W, among them) that the stock drivers are pretty good. I think not (and the fact that Harmon, his employer, designed the L7 means his opinion cannot really be objective- not dissing Andy). They are okay. But just the switch to Focals for the front 3 channels (my first audio mod on this car) was an enormous improvement, and these are cheaper Focals. Even without any level changing or EQ tweaking the sound went from maybe a 4 to a 6 on a 1-10 scale.

An irony was that I sold my calibrated mics and mic amp that I used with trueRTA for calibration previously, as soon as I bought the MS-8. I wouldn't need those any longer, right? I sure don't need them in the house with Audyssey in my home theater.
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      06-08-2012, 10:23 AM   #645
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all I can say is that im not rationalizing anything....the setup in my E92 sounds better than almost any stereo Ive ever heard, BUT it took 2 months of trial and error and being where you are at now before I got it right.

Its been well established that the MS-8 is problematic in the 3 series....something about the setup in our cars just doesnt work with the MS-8 algorithm.....if I recall wasn't the consensus that peaky midbass from the underseats was to blame? So a simple plug and play autotune isnt going to happen for us. BUT that doesnt mean that it cant work.

It was my experience that the "kaigoss workaround" worked pretty much from the start....it wasnt perfect but it was pretty good from the first calibration. I eventually worked out my own method but kaigoss's got me 90% of the way there.

For the bluetooth issue....JBLs fix isnt perfect but it works well enough, I just have to remember to push the button on the remote to disable the delay when I get a call.

I understand if this is more nonsense than you want to deal with so do what you got to do!

Last edited by jeffb335; 06-08-2012 at 11:34 AM.
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      06-08-2012, 10:37 AM   #646
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SVO
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
SVO, try to leave the sub out of the equation for now. I suspect the Focals are too inefficient to be run by the MS-8. So try to run the underseats to about 40hz, set the highpass for the components and coax to 200hz (all 24 db/oct) and see if you can get a decent calibration.
90dB efficiency at 4 ohm on the fronts. (subjectively very close to stock) That almost certainly is not it, but I'll give it a shot. Eliminating everything between 40 and 200Hz? How would I bring that back after calibration while retaining the calibration?
No, I meant to set the subsonic at 40 and the highpass at 200. So the woofers play between those frequencies, and everything else plays above.
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      06-08-2012, 10:47 AM   #647
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So after some experimentation (trying to avoid going back to the kaigoss mod at present).

I've found the following sub calibration results
1) Sub in trunk -- Boomy and overpowering
2) sub in trunk with seats backs down -- middle ground
3) sub in trunk with seats down and trunk open -- best so far...
4) yet to try - kaigoss II mod -- sub in back seat.

I can say that during this experimentation, I heard a lot more frequency range in the sweep...the MS-8 is supposed to level match from 50-80hz, but it seemed more like up to 500hz...information that was getting blocked by the rear seats.
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      06-16-2012, 04:50 PM   #648
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all I can say is that im not rationalizing anything....the setup in my E92 sounds better than almost any stereo Ive ever heard, BUT it took 2 months of trial and error and being where you are at now before I got it right.

Its been well established that the MS-8 is problematic in the 3 series....something about the setup in our cars just doesnt work with the MS-8 algorithm.....if I recall wasn't the consensus that peaky midbass from the underseats was to blame? So a simple plug and play autotune isnt going to happen for us. BUT that doesnt mean that it cant work.

It was my experience that the "kaigoss workaround" worked pretty much from the start....it wasnt perfect but it was pretty good from the first calibration. I eventually worked out my own method but kaigoss's got me 90% of the way there.

For the bluetooth issue....JBLs fix isnt perfect but it works well enough, I just have to remember to push the button on the remote to disable the delay when I get a call.

I understand if this is more nonsense than you want to deal with so do what you got to do!
Yeah, 2 months of trial and error and then I have to mount the remote in an accessible spot if I want my bluetooth to work, when I don't even want it in the car after calibration. The MS-8 was supposedly developed around the E90 and it can't deal with it Sadly there is not a single sophisticated/reliable installer left in this region of 2 million people. Otherwise I'd just hand it over and make it their problem and eat some big $$$. Can't even do that.
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      06-16-2012, 05:57 PM   #649
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Yeah, 2 months of trial and error and then I have to mount the remote in an accessible spot if I want my bluetooth to work, when I don't even want it in the car after calibration. The MS-8 was supposedly developed around the E90 and it can't deal with it Sadly there is not a single sophisticated/reliable installer left in this region of 2 million people. Otherwise I'd just hand it over and make it their problem and eat some big $$$. Can't even do that.
I don't think the MS-8 was developed with the BMW set up in mind. In fact, in another thread, the PM from JBL is asking for volunteers to experiment with new software and new setup techniques precisely because the mid-bass underseat woofers are not something they designed for. There are workarounds discussed in this thread, especially for people that have added real subwoofers and need to game the process to get the right sound, but I think it's well established as I read through this thread that this unit CAN work well in our cars, but wasn't tested or developed with them in mind.
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      06-19-2012, 11:47 AM   #650
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I don't think the MS-8 was developed with the BMW set up in mind. In fact, in another thread, the PM from JBL is asking for volunteers to experiment with new software and new setup techniques precisely because the mid-bass underseat woofers are not something they designed for. There are workarounds discussed in this thread, especially for people that have added real subwoofers and need to game the process to get the right sound, but I think it's well established as I read through this thread that this unit CAN work well in our cars, but wasn't tested or developed with them in mind.
Well, the MS-8 was installed in an E90 as an initial proving system before it was available on the market, if I recall correctly. That fabled set-up with stock drivers supposedly won an SQ comp. Love to know exactly what that set-up was so I could at least imitate it, even if it required me to dump the sub.
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      06-19-2012, 12:04 PM   #651
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Quote:
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Well, the MS-8 was installed in an E90 as an initial proving system before it was available on the market, if I recall correctly. That fabled set-up with stock drivers supposedly won an SQ comp. Love to know exactly what that set-up was so I could at least imitate it, even if it required me to dump the sub.
Over on DIYMA there is a JBL rep in the main MS-8 thread. He was involved from the start of the product and implies it was not tested in BMWs -- but that over time they have some best practices that have been developed and with a stock system, I can see where it would be an improvement.

He has posted his ideal setup for the MS-8 in a BMW in that thread.

The challenges (and some workaround successes) in working with BMW systems with an added aftermarket sub are well documented here, and there. It can be done, but it's far from plug and play (unfortunately -- since that is one of the selling points of the MS-8, no professional help should be needed, but is needed, when using it with an aftermarket sub in a BMW).
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      06-19-2012, 03:44 PM   #652
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what page number is that "guide" to BMW setups on?
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      06-19-2012, 05:13 PM   #653
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what page number is that "guide" to BMW setups on?
I would be interested as well to get my first configuration pretty damn good.
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      06-19-2012, 07:04 PM   #654
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Here's the press release:

http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...0Nationals.pdf

They did the following:

- added OEM tweeter to center channel
- added OEM tweeters to rear doors
- installed 2 12" GTi trunk subs (bandpass box, IIRC)
- ran L7 amp outputs into MS-8's speaker level inputs
- used (2) 4-channel amps for interior speakers
- used mono amp for trunk subs

The only non-OEM speakers they used were the trunk subs! I tried to mirror what JBL did with the 325i. But I did not amp the L7 speakers, I ran them off the MS-8. Worked great.

Note: I believe the algorithm may have changed between this beta unit and the production units. There were reports of a key programmer having left the company and they basically had to re-program everything from scratch and that was part of the big delay in getting the unit released. So the BMW midbass problem may not have been present in the demo unit, and it may be a flaw that is still present today in the production units.
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      06-19-2012, 07:18 PM   #655
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Here's the post with some info on the 325i from Andy W. on DIYMA:

http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/705666-post436.html
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      06-19-2012, 10:11 PM   #656
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Sigh...

Hit a large bump on the freeway, now one channel of my MS-8 sends a loud crack through Channel 1 if I hit a bump. Parked the car, swapped Channels 1 and 2 at the MS-8 output and the crack moved sides - the static/crack could be triggered by lightly hitting down on my stealthbox.

Bypassed the MS-8 and just used the crossovers in my JL amps to run the front doors, underseats, and stealthbox. Way more output at the sacrifice of the beauty of the front stage that the MS-8 puts together.

Glad I bought that MS-8 under warranty....
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      06-19-2012, 10:32 PM   #657
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I too plan a similar KISS install by just using Technic harness and a MS-8, at the mean time look to power all OEM speaker by using the MS-8 alone, as the MS-8 can utilize the power/ground from the existing OEM amp which means no cutting/adding any wiring are required.

Just wondering, anyone tried the MS-8 on powering the Morel Oviation 4'' XO speaker? Plan to replace the front speaker with Oviation 4'' XO, and add a center channel for a full Logic7 capability.

Cheers
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      06-20-2012, 05:13 AM   #658
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Just wondering, anyone tried the MS-8 on powering the Morel Oviation 4'' XO speaker? Plan to replace the front speaker with Oviation 4'' XO, and add a center channel for a full Logic7 capability.

Cheers
i would think that the ms-8 would not have sufficient power for the morels. minimum i'd say is 50w so 18w would not be enough to make the morels worth the addition

definately recommend centre channel and logic 7. after getting used to it u will love it. just make sure you match the power/sensitivity to the front mids
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      06-22-2012, 12:32 PM   #659
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Quote:
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what page number is that "guide" to BMW setups on?
from the source, aka, JBL, at http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...-post7255.html:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Wehmeyer
Connect the front speakers to outputs 1 and 2. Connect the under-seat woofers to outputs 3 and 4. Connect the rear speakers to outputs 5 and 6. Then, choose "none" for subs. Identify the front as 2-way. Choose 30Hz as the subsonic filter, 12dB/octave. Choose 200Hz as the front hi/low crossover, 24db/octave. Choose 100Hz 24 dB/octave for sides. No rear.

Then, use the subwoofer level control in MS-8 to boost the bass. This will provide good midbass, an appropriate crossover for the front mids and the ability to adjust the low bass as if you had a sub.

I've done this many times in 3-series BMWs and it works great.
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      06-22-2012, 12:38 PM   #660
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i would think that the ms-8 would not have sufficient power for the morels. minimum i'd say is 50w so 18w would not be enough to make the morels worth the addition
I ran the OEM speakers off the MS-8 and it worked and sounded better than the OEM hi fi amp.

I then upgrade to Morel HO in the doors, still running off the MS8 and it really didn't improve much over the OEM speakers (gasp!) -- which means the MS8 really couldn't power them to their potential.

I added an amp (see sig) and it was awesome.

If the OP can't afford amp+speakers+MS8 all at once, I would recommend:

1. MS-8 now
2. amp+speakers later

or

1. amp+speakers now
2. MS-8 later

but I would NOT recommend

1. MS8+speakers now
2. amp later

not because it sounds bad, but the speakers are mostly wasted without decent amplification, and the MS8 amps are really designed to drive easy-to-power OEM speakers, not high quality after market speakers.
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