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      06-22-2012, 02:50 PM   #661
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post
thanks. only thing is i have OEM base woofers so use a 50hz@24db filter. i guess theres only so much improvement u can do to the awful base woofers.

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Originally Posted by Nathan_h View Post

If the OP can't afford amp+speakers+MS8 all at once, I would recommend:

1. MS-8 now
2. amp+speakers later

or

1. amp+speakers now
2. MS-8 later

but I would NOT recommend

1. MS8+speakers now
2. amp later

not because it sounds bad, but the speakers are mostly wasted without decent amplification, and the MS8 amps are really designed to drive easy-to-power OEM speakers, not high quality after market speakers.
good advice. i went with ms-8 first and then amp and speakers. money does not have to limit you if you upgrade in planned stages.
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      06-22-2012, 03:48 PM   #662
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thanks. only thing is i have OEM base woofers so use a 50hz@24db filter. i guess theres only so much improvement u can do to the awful base woofers.



good advice. i went with ms-8 first and then amp and speakers. money does not have to limit you if you upgrade in planned stages.
I went with MS8 + Speakers but the only ones I found that would be sensitive enough were DLS R4's also looked at Rainbows but would require another amp and im trying to keep it simple for now.
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      06-23-2012, 11:23 AM   #663
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I went with MS8 + Speakers but the only ones I found that would be sensitive enough were DLS R4's also looked at Rainbows but would require another amp and im trying to keep it simple for now.
Good point. There are some aftermarket speakers that might be sensitive enough to work with the MS-8.

For me, since the least complex and least expensive piece of the upgrade was the amp, I didn't want that to constrain me.
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      06-23-2012, 12:34 PM   #664
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Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
I went with MS8 + Speakers but the only ones I found that would be sensitive enough were DLS R4's also looked at Rainbows but would require another amp and im trying to keep it simple for now.
Good point. There are some aftermarket speakers that might be sensitive enough to work with the MS-8.

For me, since the least complex and least expensive piece of the upgrade was the amp, I didn't want that to constrain me.
Sometimes adding an ms-8 to an amped system makes things significantly more complicated in terms of giving the ms-8 conditions where it can be successful.
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      06-23-2012, 02:14 PM   #665
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nathan_h
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Originally Posted by QUiKSR20 View Post
I went with MS8 + Speakers but the only ones I found that would be sensitive enough were DLS R4's also looked at Rainbows but would require another amp and im trying to keep it simple for now.
Good point. There are some aftermarket speakers that might be sensitive enough to work with the MS-8.

For me, since the least complex and least expensive piece of the upgrade was the amp, I didn't want that to constrain me.
Sometimes adding an ms-8 to an amped system makes things significantly more complicated in terms of giving the ms-8 conditions where it can be successful.
Yep, especially a partially amped system.
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      08-08-2012, 06:52 AM   #666
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In the coming weeks Iíd like to install an MS8 in an F30 and thought I double check with you if my understanding on the below configuration is right. I guess there is not much difference between F30 and E90 in terms of factory components and cabling, so I hope you could help.

Car is leased company car, and I donít want to spend lots of money on something which is not mine but Iíd like inproved sound. Therefore Iím installing only the components I already have right now as Stage 1, and in case Iím not too happy with the result, I might consider adding something better.

Car has Professional Radio as standard and only Base Audio (6 speakers) with no amp.

Stage 1:

I want to use Polk Audio Dxi400 coaxial set in front and rear doors as I already have them left from other installs. I also want to keep the stock underseat woofers. Addition to this, there will be only the MS8, driving all 6 speakers.

Questions:

- Iív seen examples on forums connecting the MS8 on both High Level (808Mguy on m3post.com) and Line Level Inputs (many others here). I need to keep PDC beeps and stuff, and for Speaker Level connections I guess I need to use Y adapter for combining Front and Rear wires going to CH1 and CH2 on MS8. High Level Input could accept all 4 wires from Head Unit I think. Which method would you guys recommend?

- Some says HU needs recoding to HiFi, while others leave it as Stereo. I can change the configuration in E-Sys software, but actually Iím not too sure if it would really take place or the HU would just ignore this and remains in Stereo. Should I bother with recoding?
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- I have a generic 1:1 quadlock extension, where Iím planning to cut speaker wires and bring them to the MS8. Front and Read door wires from MS8 output channels will reconnect back to the quadlock, while I guess for the underseat woofers I need separate wiring. Is this the right understanding?
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- Turn-on signal for MS8. Would I get it from the quadlock too? Is a source availble there on any wire? I have also factory installed +12V socket in trunk, could that be an option?

I think that would be it for now, any help and advise wuld be great. Thanks, Gabor
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      08-20-2012, 06:56 AM   #667
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I think that would be it for now, any help and advise wuld be great. Thanks, Gabor
Figured out in the meantime, all seems to be working fine, except the lack of bass from the underseats. I guess this could be fine tuned...
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      11-11-2012, 01:53 PM   #668
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Hi all,
I'm just curious how many people here have experienced the problem of the soundstage veering to the passenger side? It has been mentioned on the DIYMA site a few times but none of the solutions really worked for me, and with the E90 most folks tend to focus on just the midbass issue.

After having played with my MS8 for almost a year now, and having solved the midbass to satisfaction, my biggest problem is getting the imaging right. To summarize what I have and what I've experienced:

- E90 L7
- OEM underseats, sides & rears
- Morel Hybrid Ovation splits; Integra centre
- DSL Nordica 10" sealed sub venting through the ski hatch
- JL HD600/4 & HD750/1 (centre & sides & rears powered from MS8)
- Splits, centre & sides/rears HP 24dB/oct @ 180Hz, underseats LP 24dB/oct @ 75 Hz

When tuning without a centre speaker, the balance is fairly good, perhaps needing just one or two increments on the balance adjustment. However, with a centre in the mix it always veers strongly to the passenger side. Reducing centre level does not help. This isn't a wiring issue since the levels are all perfect when the MS8 is in Defeat mode. The balance tends to be fine in the passenger position too; don't know whether reflections from the steering wheel is messing up the sweeps.

There are only two solutions: 1) Move your head about 10" more inwards during the first sweep or 2) set the balance about midway between centre and maximum to the driver side. Covering drivers during sweeps doesn't help.

Trouble with the first solution is that it tends to mess up the phase. Balance and levels might be fine but the sound is rather fatiguing to listen to and typical of phasing problems. Trouble with solution2 is similar but not as severe, and it becomes very sensitive with source material.

I also found that the balance with a centre speaker is highly sensitive with FM radio, especially if the balance has already been adjusted. Every station seems to be at a different balance level! What may sound fine with one station is steered to the left/right on another. Once again, this is not prevalent with the MS8 in defeat, and much less noticeable when disabling the centre altogether.

Does anybody perhaps know of any other tips to assist with this?
On a more sobering note, of all the L7 E90 owners who eventually threw in the towel with the MS8, is there any common consensus on what they fell back to? Cleansweep/BitOne? I'm actually eyeing a DIY project with an Analog Devices SigmaDSP but it's quite a lot of work..

Last edited by Pierre_za; 11-11-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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      11-11-2012, 04:07 PM   #669
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Hi all,
I'm just curious how many people here have experienced the problem of the soundstage veering to the passenger side? It has been mentioned on the DIYMA site a few times but none of the solutions really worked for me, and with the E90 most folks tend to focus on just the midbass issue.

After having played with my MS8 for almost a year now, and having solved the midbass to satisfaction, my biggest problem is getting the imaging right. To summarize what I have and what I've experienced:

- E90 L7
- OEM underseats, sides & rears
- Morel Hybrid Ovation splits; Integra centre
- DSL Nordica 10" sealed sub venting through the ski hatch
- JL HD600/4 & HD750/1 (centre & sides & rears powered from MS8)
- Splits, centre & sides/rears HP 24dB/oct @ 180Hz, underseats LP 24dB/oct @ 75 Hz

When tuning without a centre speaker, the balance is fairly good, perhaps needing just one or two increments on the balance adjustment. However, with a centre in the mix it always veers strongly to the passenger side. Reducing centre level does not help. This isn't a wiring issue since the levels are all perfect when the MS8 is in Defeat mode. The balance tends to be fine in the passenger position too; don't know whether reflections from the steering wheel is messing up the sweeps.

There are only two solutions: 1) Move your head about 10" more inwards during the first sweep or 2) set the balance about midway between centre and maximum to the driver side. Covering drivers during sweeps doesn't help.

Trouble with the first solution is that it tends to mess up the phase. Balance and levels might be fine but the sound is rather fatiguing to listen to and typical of phasing problems. Trouble with solution2 is similar but not as severe, and it becomes very sensitive with source material.

I also found that the balance with a centre speaker is highly sensitive with FM radio, especially if the balance has already been adjusted. Every station seems to be at a different balance level! What may sound fine with one station is steered to the left/right on another. Once again, this is not prevalent with the MS8 in defeat, and much less noticeable when disabling the centre altogether.

Does anybody perhaps know of any other tips to assist with this?
On a more sobering note, of all the L7 E90 owners who eventually threw in the towel with the MS8, is there any common consensus on what they fell back to? Cleansweep/BitOne? I'm actually eyeing a DIY project with an Analog Devices SigmaDSP but it's quite a lot of work..
I'm sure you've double and triple checked the polarity of the front mids, right? Other than that, have you considered a faulty mic headset?
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      11-12-2012, 03:07 PM   #670
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Yup, polarities multi-checked. Haven't tried a different mic, will try borrowing one but since the passenger seat tunes fine it's a long shot.

Just curious, has anybody tried a Premium E90 with just aftermarket amps and speakers and compared it with the MS8 in the loop? I installed both at the same time and never got to do the piecewise comparison.

I was quite happy with the stock sound (with L7 disabled) but wanted more bass, dynamics and clarity, which I got, but arguably more attributable to the better amps and speakers. This came at the expense of a soundstage stumbling around like a freshman's vision at his first beer party and an echoing Bluetooth.

Since the Premium already has time alignment and I don't fancy L7, the only real advantage is the flexibility in crossovers frequencies & slopes, but from experience those parameters (at least within reasonable limit) have a far less profound influence than all the other tuning problems introduced by the MS8. Any comments?
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      11-12-2012, 11:38 PM   #671
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Pierre, feel your pain.

E90 L7. Tried everything. 1,000 posts @ DIYMA, Andy W direct advice, Kaigoss advice. Yanked the MS8 and went with just new drivers up-front, 4CH amp driving a sealed sub and the under-seats, OEM amp pushing the rest. Tuned stock EQ using RTA. Very nice- FAR superior to anything possible with MS8. Bloated, loose midbass. Low, misplaced image.

If I had to guess, H/K took some pretty steep short-cuts (assumptions in relationships between phase, FR) in the calibration algorithms to make it work with a slow/cheap processor, but it can't handle the underseat midbass location and that alone effectively messes up the entire auto EQ. Andy admitted issue and said he would do something for me but never did. Dumped it on ebay for a $$ hit of several hundred.

Don't listen to folks who think it needs just one more gerry-rigged calibration run. It will never sound great. Dump it and move on. One thing: get a matching coax center speaker- makes a VERY big difference. FYI: I'm a certified former professional A/V designer/installer.

Good luck.
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      11-13-2012, 12:10 AM   #672
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SVO, you're welcome to come sit in my car and I prove you wrong in 5 seconds.
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      11-13-2012, 03:21 PM   #673
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The MS-8 has gained a poor reputation because it was designed and marketed as a simple solution to great sound. In reality, it is the simple solution to great sound in most systems and tends to work better with simple systems. It basically conflicts with everything that DIYMA is about. For the MS-8 to work its magic, you need to play by its rules (I liken it to using iTunes for that reason). If you play by its rules, it tends to work.

With that said, there is definitely something about BMWs that is does not like - AT ALL. While it can work, it takes a whole lot of effort and trial and error to get correct. Because it is marketed as a processor that can auto-tune, users tend to assume that they don't have to tweak it after-the-fact. That just isn't the case - the EQ is pretty good at fixing calibration issues.
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      11-13-2012, 03:38 PM   #674
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Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
The MS-8 has gained a poor reputation because it was designed and marketed as a simple solution to great sound. In reality, it is the simple solution to great sound in most systems and tends to work better with simple systems. It basically conflicts with everything that DIYMA is about. For the MS-8 to work its magic, you need to play by its rules (I liken it to using iTunes for that reason). If you play by its rules, it tends to work.

With that said, there is definitely something about BMWs that is does not like - AT ALL. While it can work, it takes a whole lot of effort and trial and error to get correct. Because it is marketed as a processor that can auto-tune, users tend to assume that they don't have to tweak it after-the-fact. That just isn't the case - the EQ is pretty good at fixing calibration issues.
Exactly.
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      11-13-2012, 10:53 PM   #675
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Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
The MS-8 has gained a poor reputation because it was designed and marketed as a simple solution to great sound. In reality, it is the simple solution to great sound in most systems and tends to work better with simple systems. It basically conflicts with everything that DIYMA is about. For the MS-8 to work its magic, you need to play by its rules (I liken it to using iTunes for that reason). If you play by its rules, it tends to work.

With that said, there is definitely something about BMWs that is does not like - AT ALL. While it can work, it takes a whole lot of effort and trial and error to get correct. Because it is marketed as a processor that can auto-tune, users tend to assume that they don't have to tweak it after-the-fact. That just isn't the case - the EQ is pretty good at fixing calibration issues.
So it is an auto-tune device that simply requires a "whole lot of effort and trial and error", eh? It is not "marketed as an auto-tune device", it IS an auto tune device. What other value does it bring? A quality PEQ? Nope. Other good manual adjustment interfaces? Nope. It has 8 puny amp channels and auto tune. That is the value it (does not) provide, at least not for L7 owners.

Kaigoss, I asked you for advice via PM on multiple occasions and followed it to the T. None of it worked. If you look across the history of your posts on the MS8 you will note a pattern of, "I finally nailed it- sounds awesome!" followed in a few months and numerous mods later by, "Now have really struck gold here!" followed in another few months by more of the same. Your final response via PM to me was, "I never got a good tune until I went to all external amps..." That was YEARS after your first post on the MS8. Ridiculous.

Come on over to Boulder any time- love to hear your car. Bet ya mine sounds better at 1/4 the cost, 1/5 the complexity and 1/100 the man hours.

And if any of you can recall, JBL initially installed the prototype MS8 in a (wait for it) E90 BMW to demonstrate it's amazing calibration abilities and supposedly won an SQ comp with that set-up (stock drivers). Guess a few corners were cut between prototype and production.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt gentlemen.
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      11-14-2012, 02:01 AM   #676
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So it is an auto-tune device that simply requires a "whole lot of effort and trial and error", eh? It is not "marketed as an auto-tune device", it IS an auto tune device. What other value does it bring? A quality PEQ? Nope. Other good manual adjustment interfaces? Nope. It has 8 puny amp channels and auto tune. That is the value it (does not) provide, at least not for L7 owners.
I don't know why you are trying to twist my words. In some systems it requires more trial and error than others. BMW's with the underseat woofers fall into this category. I don't see what is so offensive about that conclusion.

I understand and can appreciate that it didn't work for you, but to say it delivers no value to its users would be false.
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      11-14-2012, 07:48 AM   #677
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That's because the bar got raised every time I did a significant upgrade to my system. The only ridiculous thing here is you coming here crying like a little girl and trashing the product because somehow you managed to screw something up, when you could be displaying perhaps some small degree of gratitude for all the help that has been offered to you in the past.
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      11-14-2012, 08:27 AM   #678
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Kaigoss, I asked you for advice via PM on multiple occasions and followed it to the T. None of it worked. If you look across the history of your posts on the MS8 you will note a pattern of, "I finally nailed it- sounds awesome!" followed in a few months and numerous mods later by, "Now have really struck gold here!" followed in another few months by more of the same. Your final response via PM to me was, "I never got a good tune until I went to all external amps..." That was YEARS after your first post on the MS8. Ridiculous.

Come on over to Boulder any time- love to hear your car. Bet ya mine sounds better at 1/4 the cost, 1/5 the complexity and 1/100 the man hours.
Instead of complaining like an ungrateful ******* you should be happy that you got free advice. Also realise that people giving advice, such as kaigoss, can not replace your ears. Advice is based on their experiences and conclusions, which may or may not work for you.

Personally I got some great advice from kaigoss and many others, sometimes changing things according to my environment/tastes. It worked for me and many others.

Also who gives a s*** how "better" your car sounds. If you're happy with it then it's all good. I don't understand your need to trash the MS-8 on a thread designed to help users just because you couldn't make it work.
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      11-14-2012, 08:36 AM   #679
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Originally Posted by SVO
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcurley55 View Post
The MS-8 has gained a poor reputation because it was designed and marketed as a simple solution to great sound. In reality, it is the simple solution to great sound in most systems and tends to work better with simple systems. It basically conflicts with everything that DIYMA is about. For the MS-8 to work its magic, you need to play by its rules (I liken it to using iTunes for that reason). If you play by its rules, it tends to work.

With that said, there is definitely something about BMWs that is does not like - AT ALL. While it can work, it takes a whole lot of effort and trial and error to get correct. Because it is marketed as a processor that can auto-tune, users tend to assume that they don't have to tweak it after-the-fact. That just isn't the case - the EQ is pretty good at fixing calibration issues.
So it is an auto-tune device that simply requires a "whole lot of effort and trial and error", eh? It is not "marketed as an auto-tune device", it IS an auto tune device. What other value does it bring? A quality PEQ? Nope. Other good manual adjustment interfaces? Nope. It has 8 puny amp channels and auto tune. That is the value it (does not) provide, at least not for L7 owners.

Kaigoss, I asked you for advice via PM on multiple occasions and followed it to the T. None of it worked. If you look across the history of your posts on the MS8 you will note a pattern of, "I finally nailed it- sounds awesome!" followed in a few months and numerous mods later by, "Now have really struck gold here!" followed in another few months by more of the same. Your final response via PM to me was, "I never got a good tune until I went to all external amps..." That was YEARS after your first post on the MS8. Ridiculous.

Come on over to Boulder any time- love to hear your car. Bet ya mine sounds better at 1/4 the cost, 1/5 the complexity and 1/100 the man hours.

And if any of you can recall, JBL initially installed the prototype MS8 in a (wait for it) E90 BMW to demonstrate it's amazing calibration abilities and supposedly won an SQ comp with that set-up (stock drivers). Guess a few corners were cut between prototype and production.

Denial isn't just a river in Egypt gentlemen.
This post is quite a bit unfounded
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      01-24-2013, 12:19 PM   #680
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I was just reminded of this thread when a customer of mine was asking about E9X audio options....Looks like it needs a bump.

After looking at the last few posts I figured I would update my MS8 experience.....

Its been months now that I have not even thought about the MS8, just listening to my music and it sounds phenomenal. Kaigoss's last trick of setting the amp crossovers a bit above the MS8 crossover frequency worked perfect, I got a great calibration, solid midbass, smooth mids and highs, and havent had to touch it since.

I will admit that the MS8 drove me completely insane for months as I (like the rest of you) searched for a way around the midbass hole, but now that we found a good way around that all I think about now is whats next up on my ipod....

Last edited by jeffb335; 01-24-2013 at 12:55 PM.
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      01-24-2013, 08:08 PM   #681
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Originally Posted by jeffb335 View Post
I will admit that the MS8 drove me completely insane for months as I (like the rest of you) searched for a way around the midbass hole...
I don't need to comment- you all make my case for me better than I ever could myself. A failure as a consumer product, at least for the E90.
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      01-25-2013, 01:53 PM   #682
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yeah, sort of....except my comments say as much about my OCD as they do about the MS8. Im an old school audio guy and in previous cars I have spent hundreds of hours with an RTA and 32 band EQs and moving speakers, changing angles, etc... remember when you would place speakers in the kick panels and drive around for weeks getting the angles just right?

Well the MS-8 eliminated that, I was 80% good from the beginning. It just seemed like I was having to do to much EQ correction so like you I tried everything looking for the best results.

The original kaigoss work around of disconnecting the sub sounded fine on the first try but left me with doubts about lumpy frequency response on the low end...could it be better?

The second kaigoss trick of using the crossovers worked perfect and leaves me with no doubts that things are maximized.

Sorry it didnt work for you.
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