E90Post
 


GT Haus
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Helix Innovations in Intercooler Design



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      07-01-2012, 07:04 PM   #45
zeel
Lieutenant
6
Rep
580
Posts

 
Drives: 08 AW e92 335i
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: MD/NOVA/DC

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.
its not that serious...and I didn't know helix invented the intercooler.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 07:36 PM   #46
benzy89
Banned
United_States
28
Rep
2,396
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Helix didn't invent the intercooler, but they pioneered the stepped intercooler core design for the N54/N55 engines. Wagner is a budget FMIC that has taken a superior, respected & proven design (Helix) and has made it available at a significantly reduced rate by selling a lower quality core & not including upgraded FMIC piping. I'm not making any acquisitions, but it'll be very interesting to see VRSF's FMIC & CBE designs when they both get released.

My $.02, I wouldn't want budget parts installed on my car where they can have a damaging impact on the engine & quality of performance.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 07:44 PM   #47
nitehawk
Lieutenant Colonel
nitehawk's Avatar
Canada
20
Rep
1,638
Posts

 
Drives: e92 335i 6MT
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Toronto

iTrader: (15)

Garage List
Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVANT123 View Post
Here's where I disagree with your statement - Helix does not offer an intercooler for those who do not want to hack up their factory couplers. There was a niche to be filled and someone filled it. If Helix would make a unit with the factory couplers, I would have bought it(and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way).
What is the big issue with removing the factory couplers?
All you need to do to revert back to stock is replace the one worm clamp on the inlet side that you had to cut.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 08:33 PM   #48
Wduck
Enlisted Member
United_States
0
Rep
33
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335i sedan, auto black
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tennessee

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.
I guess with that logic, no one should have made a rectangular intercooler either. Copy of BMW's. Just because it's stepped does not mean it's a copy. If Helix did have an original then they more than likely would have requested a patent on it. Is VRSF going to be treated the same because of their dp's? They sure look like a lot of the others on the market.
If the core is different then it's not a development copy, it's seems to be just shaped the same. There doesn't seem to be many different shapes a company can design within the area that they have to work with. I really don't believe Helix is concerned about losing sales to them. Helix's reputation precedes them and their sales will show.

And I do have a and love my Helix.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 09:11 PM   #49
benzy89
Banned
United_States
28
Rep
2,396
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wduck View Post
I guess with that logic, no one should have made a rectangular intercooler either. Copy of BMW's. Just because it's stepped does not mean it's a copy. If Helix did have an original then they more than likely would have requested a patent on it. Is VRSF going to be treated the same because of their dp's? They sure look like a lot of the others on the market.
If the core is different then it's not a development copy, it's seems to be just shaped the same. There doesn't seem to be many different shapes a company can design within the area that they have to work with. I really don't believe Helix is concerned about losing sales to them. Helix's reputation precedes them and their sales will show.

And I do have a and love my Helix.
With your logic, you might as well saying that BMW should start selling Avant Garde + VMR for making CSL Rep's. THe reason why there is a problem with Wagner copying Helix's design is that it's unique. Prior to Helix, nobody was using a stepped intercooler design for the N54/N55.

Like I mentioned, we'll see what happens with VRSF's new products once they're released. YES, if there's no patent or copyright infringement, then there's no legal conflict. Is it "low" for a company to come out of no where & copy another company's proven & highly successful IC design?? YES
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 10:01 PM   #50
Wduck
Enlisted Member
United_States
0
Rep
33
Posts

 
Drives: 2008 335i sedan, auto black
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Tennessee

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
With your logic, you might as well saying that BMW should start selling Avant Garde + VMR for making CSL Rep's. THe reason why there is a problem with Wagner copying Helix's design is that it's unique. Prior to Helix, nobody was using a stepped intercooler design for the N54/N55.

Like I mentioned, we'll see what happens with VRSF's new products once they're released. YES, if there's no patent or copyright infringement, then there's no legal conflict. Is it "low" for a company to come out of no where & copy another company's proven & highly successful IC design?? YES
Yes, it would be "low" but this is not the case. Who came out with the first aftermarket upgraded intercooler for the N54? Not the stepped design. But the others. Does that make everyone else that came out with one afterwards "low"? No. Just because they used the stepped look doesn't mean its a copy. I don't believe that they could make a core that would be comparable and sell it at their gb price without losing money. With the space constrictions that they're working within, there's not a lot of room to be different. The design seems to be one of two that we can use without shredding the front of the car. As far as VRSF goes, I was talking about their downpipes. They look like the first aftermarket dp's that were made but I'm not expecting an explanation. I'm just going to buy them. I'm sure if people can afford it, they'll get the Helix. If not they'll get another brand but, and I'm not trying to start a war here, I believe the people that do purchase the Wagner IC are really wanting the Helix but don't want or can't swing the extra money. I don't know anyone purchasing the Wagner because it's a Wagner. No offense. I believe quality and word of mouth will win out and we shouldn't stress about it.
Appreciate 0
      07-01-2012, 10:12 PM   #51
BEAR-AvHistory
2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
22
Rep
2,272
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 435M-Sport MPPK
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC - USA

iTrader: (0)

Turbos & intercoolers have been in use for over 100 years. Intercoolers have been in many cases shaped to fit the space since the beginning. Nothing unique about the stepped design its just an intercooler shaped to fit into the available space.
__________________
Kevin

2014 435M-Sport MPPK - 2013 135is Cab 6MT - 2009 V-Star FFR Cobra MK-IV work in progress
Cobra Coyote First Start.
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 09:43 AM   #52
saxon
First Lieutenant
5
Rep
323
Posts

 
Drives: 07 335i
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: pa

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
Helix didn't invent the intercooler, but they pioneered the stepped intercooler core design for the N54/N55 engines. Wagner is a budget FMIC that has taken a superior, respected & proven design (Helix) and has made it available at a significantly reduced rate by selling a lower quality core & not including upgraded FMIC piping. I'm not making any acquisitions, but it'll be very interesting to see VRSF's FMIC & CBE designs when they both get released.

My $.02, I wouldn't want budget parts installed on my car where they can have a damaging impact on the engine & quality of performance.

didnt you just have vrsf downpipes?

i think its great that other options are out there... competition is a great thing for consumers and also for the scene as a whole
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 09:50 AM   #53
Velocity26
Resident old fart
Velocity26's Avatar
2
Rep
259
Posts

 
Drives: 2010 335i M-Sport
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Florida

iTrader: (4)

Helix was the first to apply the stepped core on an N54, if others have used stepped cores on other platforms before Helix ... did Helix copy them?

For those of you that say you only buy "the best", and not "the best value", why stop at the intercooler ... why are you driving a 335 in the first place? The reason is that you were looking for the best within a specific budget.
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 09:54 AM   #54
-StanceCity-
Banned
19
Rep
1,344
Posts

 
Drives: love to piss on fucker's face
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: are you that fucker? lol

iTrader: (2)

We should have these vendors prove their product performance by doing an independent back-to-back dyno comparison. So we can stop bitching?
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 09:56 AM   #55
LivnLife31
Banned
United_States
5
Rep
421
Posts

 
Drives: 2009 E90 N54 TiAg
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: South Florida

iTrader: (2)

Garage List
2009 335i Sedan  [0.50]
Send a message via AIM to LivnLife31
Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity26 View Post
Helix was the first to apply the stepped core on an N54, if others have used stepped cores on other platforms before Helix ... did Helix copy them?

For those of you that say you only buy "the best", and not "the best value", why stop at the intercooler ... why are you driving a 335 in the first place? The reason is that you were looking for the best within a specific budget.
+1
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:17 AM   #56
benzy89
Banned
United_States
28
Rep
2,396
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by saxon View Post
didnt you just have vrsf downpipes?

i think its great that other options are out there... competition is a great thing for consumers and also for the scene as a whole
Used to have VRSF DPs Swapped them out for Akras last weekend

Competition is def good, it lights a fire under everyones ass & forces new innovations to keep companies in business. This in turn gives the consumers better products & can sometimes even lead to lower prices

Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Octane View Post
We should have these vendors prove their product performance by doing an independent back-to-back dyno comparison. So we can stop bitching?
Already a work in progress
Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest View Post
We are assembling a test rig for other intercooler in addition to our. The rig will sample temp in/out, pressure in/out, ambient temp/pressure, RPM and road speed. The intercooler inlets and outlets will be measured at the charge pipes with equal sampling areas. This information will be trended and entered into our calculator which we will make available. The calculator will take into account pressure drop from air temperature reduction (Ideal Gas Law: PV=nRT). The delta will be air flow inefficiencies. The calculator will also measure average charge air to ambient delta T as well as inlet to outlet delta T. We welcome challengers. Below is a picture of the calculator. The data entered into the calculator is NOT our intercooler results. Stay tuned.

Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:25 AM   #57
David1
Colonel
David1's Avatar
United_States
28
Rep
2,664
Posts

 
Drives: 09 E92 09 X5
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: City With No Room For Ludicris Speed!

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.
The "other" FMIC has been around for some time. It's not new. Just has not been available here in the states unless you knew of a way to get one. Also, to me there is no innovation in a FMIC. They all do the same thing no matter what it looks like. No different than a toilet, they all flush.
__________________
09 335i Coupe LBM - Black Dakota/Glacier aluminum-6spd|Nav|M-Sport|Premium|Logic7|Heated Seats|CA|BMW Performance Suspension & M3 Control Arms|M3 lip spoiler|Avant Garde M510 Wheels
07 335 coupe - Sold
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:27 AM   #58
BEAR-AvHistory
2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
22
Rep
2,272
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 435M-Sport MPPK
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC - USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by LivnLife31 View Post
+1
+2
__________________
Kevin

2014 435M-Sport MPPK - 2013 135is Cab 6MT - 2009 V-Star FFR Cobra MK-IV work in progress
Cobra Coyote First Start.
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:32 AM   #59
benzy89
Banned
United_States
28
Rep
2,396
Posts

 
Drives: '08 E90 335i
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Northern NJ

iTrader: (3)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i  [3.75]
Quote:
Originally Posted by David1 View Post
The "other" FMIC has been around for some time. It's not new. Just has not been available here in the states unless you knew of a way to get one. Also, to me there is no innovation in a FMIC. They all do the same thing no matter what it looks like. No different than a toilet, they all flush.
With this ^^ mentality, we'd still be using the OEM core
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:46 AM   #60
BEAR-AvHistory
2014 435M-Sport/MPPK
BEAR-AvHistory's Avatar
22
Rep
2,272
Posts

 
Drives: 2014 435M-Sport MPPK
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: NC - USA

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.
Point is the other company is German & its Porsche, BMW, Audi & VW products were not available in the US unless you ordered directly from Germany. I don't really know how long they have been making stepped IC's for the 335.

Regardless as I said before companies have been making IC's to fit the available space for over 100 years.
__________________
Kevin

2014 435M-Sport MPPK - 2013 135is Cab 6MT - 2009 V-Star FFR Cobra MK-IV work in progress
Cobra Coyote First Start.
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 10:48 AM   #61
import36
Burrito bowl connoisseur
import36's Avatar
United_States
44
Rep
3,438
Posts

 
Drives: E92 335i MT, E46 M3 SMG
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Seven Cities

iTrader: (1)

Garage List
2008 BMW 335i Coupe  [4.50]
2005 BMW M3  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory View Post
+2
+3

as BEAR mentioned...there's only soo many different shapes you can fit into the given space.
__________________
Mods: Procede Rev3 9-10|AE Catless Dual Exhaust|AR Design Catless DPs|AMS FMIC|Stett Charge Pipe w/Tial BOV|Stett CAI|BMS OCC|BMS CDV|Volk TE37 SLs|KW V2 Coilovers|Cusco OS Strut Brace|Macht Schnell Stud Conversion|Work RS-R Lugnuts|Gloss Black Roof|Matte Black Kidney Grills|UED Lower Bumper Grills|OEM Aero Lip and Painted Reflectors|M3 Sideskirts| VRS Decklid Aero Spoiler|Gloss Black Roof|M Peformance Alcantara Steering Wheel(blue)|OSS V2.0 LED Angel Eyes|8000k HID Fog Lights|8000k MTEC Xenons
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 04:32 PM   #62
djjasper
Lieutenant
djjasper's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
516
Posts

 
Drives: 2007 E92 335i 6MT
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: PA

iTrader: (0)

What brand of gas and what octane do you guys use? I'm interested to see if people apply the same value proposition philosophy to any of their cars' other systems.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 07:24 PM   #63
robc1976
DIYER
robc1976's Avatar
80
Rep
4,729
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ADVANT123 View Post
Here's where I disagree with your statement - Helix does not offer an intercooler for those who do not want to hack up their factory couplers. There was a niche to be filled and someone filled it. If Helix would make a unit with the factory couplers, I would have bought it(and I'm sure there are others who feel the same way).
I have a ER not a helix....but I am getting a helix...but both the helix and ER have one thing in common...they take out the weak link, the factory couplers. The factory couplers suck...Honestly.
__________________
JB4 G5, WEDGE flash, 455 LPFP, HFS-4 meth kit, BMS OCC, Motiv 750 ST, RB valve, BMS DCI, 3" AR Dps, Custom OC W/ SS lines, ER FMIC, ER CP W/HKS BOV, M3 control arms, M3 guide rods, M3 upper links, M3 front & rear sway-bars, HPA rear toe arms, Wavetrac LSD, HPF Gen 2 exhaust DEFIV kit, KW clubsport, Delrin solid subframe bushings, stoptech rotors, Rogue Tranny Mounts, 1M bumper, M3 CF hood, MORR VS8.2 rims 245/295
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 07:27 PM   #64
robc1976
DIYER
robc1976's Avatar
80
Rep
4,729
Posts

 
Drives: E90 335i
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Illinois

iTrader: (11)

Quote:
Originally Posted by nitehawk View Post
What is the big issue with removing the factory couplers?
All you need to do to revert back to stock is replace the one worm clamp on the inlet side that you had to cut.
+1
__________________
JB4 G5, WEDGE flash, 455 LPFP, HFS-4 meth kit, BMS OCC, Motiv 750 ST, RB valve, BMS DCI, 3" AR Dps, Custom OC W/ SS lines, ER FMIC, ER CP W/HKS BOV, M3 control arms, M3 guide rods, M3 upper links, M3 front & rear sway-bars, HPA rear toe arms, Wavetrac LSD, HPF Gen 2 exhaust DEFIV kit, KW clubsport, Delrin solid subframe bushings, stoptech rotors, Rogue Tranny Mounts, 1M bumper, M3 CF hood, MORR VS8.2 rims 245/295
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 07:34 PM   #65
venom3469
First Lieutenant
venom3469's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
326
Posts

 
Drives: 08 AW/R 6MT 335i, YZF-R6.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Florence, Alabama

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest
Recently other tuner shops have attempted to imitate the Helix Stepped Core Intercooler’s (SCI) unique design and success. Given the large inquiry about what positions an intercooler as the best offering, I figured I would take this time to talk about the science and innovation put into the Helix SCI. Placing the stepped intercooler core design aside, Helix built in other innovations that are BMW/Mini intercooler market first.

Many of you have heard the terms “Tube & Fin” and “Bar & Plate”. Both of these terms refer to intercooler construction. These intercooler construction methods make up the majority of intercoolers offered to the BMW market. Each has their Pros & Cons with weight, air flow, thermal reserve, thermal conductivity, ect. Below is a picture of a Bar & Plate (top) and Tube & Fin (bottom) intercooler.



The image below describes the charge row airflow characteristics of two construction types; however the Bar & Plate image is a bit exaggerated.



The image below describes the efficiency associated with orifice inlet design. Tube & Fin inlet design has an efficiency of on .53. The Bar & Plate inlet design has an efficiency of .80. Take notice of the inlet design with a .98 efficiency rating.



The image below was taken by a customer of an intercooler that attempted to imitate the SCI design. Notice the wide flat plates between the charge rows and the sharp 90 degree transition into the charge row. This construction is consistent with a Bar & Plate design and is rated at only .80 air flow efficiency.


Below is an image of an intercooler from a tuner shop that also imitated the Helix SCI. Looking inside you can see that the construction is Tube & Fin. Notice how the charge rows protrude into the end tank air space. This inlet design efficiency is rated at a dismal .53.

The Helix intercooler is constructed from a Bar & Plate design, but Helix designed and invested in an innovative custom extruded header bar. The Helix header bar is half round and serves as a bell mouth/velocity stack into each charge row on the ambient side as well as charge row inlet and outlet. This transition is rated at .98 efficient. The Helix Stepped Core Intercooler is the only intercooler that offers these innovations. This is one more innovation that allows the Helix intercooler to outperform imitators and other offerings.




The lesson is: You really do get what you pay for.
PM sent.
__________________
08 335i Alpine White/Coral Red Interior With A PROcede Tune!! 09 Yamaha R6!!
Appreciate 0
      07-02-2012, 07:35 PM   #66
venom3469
First Lieutenant
venom3469's Avatar
United_States
8
Rep
326
Posts

 
Drives: 08 AW/R 6MT 335i, YZF-R6.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Florence, Alabama

iTrader: (0)

Delete..
__________________
08 335i Alpine White/Coral Red Interior With A PROcede Tune!! 09 Yamaha R6!!
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Tags
forge, helix, intercooler, stepped core, wagner

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:51 AM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST