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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Helix Innovations in Intercooler Design



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      07-02-2012, 07:46 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Velocity26 View Post
The reason is that you were looking for the best within a specific budget.
I went from a Porsche Carrera to a 335i...had NOTHING to do with budget. I could have gotten a M3, M5 or M6.
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      07-03-2012, 03:39 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
With this ^^ mentality, we'd still be using the OEM core
Yup, and with stock boost or 15psi my crap will still get through it, maybe a little warmer though and perform the same.
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      07-03-2012, 11:29 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
What brand of gas and what octane do you guys use? I'm interested to see if people apply the same value proposition philosophy to any of their cars' other systems.
Always 93, from Shell, Exxon/Mobil or Sunoco (in that order).

I also have some 100 Octane from Sunoco in my garage & occasionally add 2-3 gallons to get ~94 octane
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      08-29-2012, 12:54 AM   #70
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I noticed the WGDC went up a little bit with the Wagner on stock turbos. Makes sense the Helix and others may behave similarly. I also don't think staggering the fins within the turbo air path is a good idea. If staggering fins only do it for a few inches worth. With cores of these size its wasted added back pressure. Staggered fins on the ambient air path is probably a good idea. Helix would look to be superior to Wagner from the extra rounding of edges and the larger air passage in the end tank that feeds the upper portion of the stepped core. Is it worth the extra money? No, I don't think so in the least.

Conclusion for me for E85 + stock turbos upgraded intercooler has minimal benefit mainly coming from ability to run lower E85 ratios and hit same target, better throttle response, and quicker spool (i haven't confirmed spool in logs, going off feel). The intercooler will allow you to flow more and make a little more power, but you are going to drive your turbos harder when they are already way way out of their efficiency range. The higher pressure drop from cooling the air more efficiently causes the turbos to need to generate more boost at the outlet to reach the same target. This causes the compressor outlet temp to rise which causes more pressure to be demanded. And on and on and on.

I didn't do any testing for 91 only but would imagine these intercoolers would have more value there since lower IATs will get you significantly more knock protection.

Original post... http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16893
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      08-29-2012, 01:18 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rudypoochris View Post
I noticed the WGDC went up a little bit with the Wagner on stock turbos. Makes sense the Helix and others may behave similarly. I also don't think staggering the fins within the turbo air path is a good idea. If staggering fins only do it for a few inches worth. With cores of these size its wasted added back pressure. Staggered fins on the ambient air path is probably a good idea. Helix would look to be superior to Wagner from the extra rounding of edges and the larger air passage in the end tank that feeds the upper portion of the stepped core. Is it worth the extra money? No, I don't think so in the least.

Conclusion for me for E85 + stock turbos upgraded intercooler has minimal benefit mainly coming from ability to run lower E85 ratios and hit same target, better throttle response, and quicker spool (i haven't confirmed spool in logs, going off feel). The intercooler will allow you to flow more and make a little more power, but you are going to drive your turbos harder when they are already way way out of their efficiency range. The higher pressure drop from cooling the air more efficiently causes the turbos to need to generate more boost at the outlet to reach the same target. This causes the compressor outlet temp to rise which causes more pressure to be demanded. And on and on and on.

I didn't do any testing for 91 only but would imagine these intercoolers would have more value there since lower IATs will get you significantly more knock protection.

Original post... http://www.n54tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16893


This is a VERY VERY good post right here, hats off to you my friend, you know your shiet. A lot of the fmic's are based off of hype and groupies on here. I have a custom made FMIC and it's design is very similar to what you are suggesting. I took into account the velocity of air entering the exposed vs. unexposed area and the pressure drop vs. cooling benefits/losses and came up with a core with various diff types of fin packs based on their location in the intercooler. The results have been great!
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      08-29-2012, 03:09 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djjasper View Post
Wanger strolled onto the scene with a copy of the Helix intercooler and to this day is still pretending they did no wrong. They need to man up and address their breach of respect to the tuners who pour their time, money, and all the risk involved in new product development into innovation. And that's the truth.

Honestly I bought the Wagner and can not complain a single bit. Wagner has also been in the intercooler/oil cooler business probably longer than Helix has and they are a German based company that works on german turbocharged cars such as the RS6, Porsche Turbo/GT2, ect..and obviously to sell aftermarket parts to cars stated above, they have to be pretty damn good. If you look at there other products which they have had out for years, really who copied who?
Again, I'm not saying the Helix is the best out there and it very well might be... but more well known since they have been in charge of the N54 intercoolers and being the best in the N54 community with an excellent reputation... Now that there are other intercooler companies that have been around for years, see a market for something profitable, why wouldnt they jump in the market having a better Value/Item?
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      08-29-2012, 11:56 AM   #73
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If you look closely Wagner and Forge for that matter; you will see they have a history of directly (close enough to directly) copying other manufactures' developments. Look at Forge with Bailey Bypass valves. Look at Wagner vs. AWE intercoolers. This is not an honest or ethical business practice in my view. They are riding the coat tails of other companies R&D, make minimal changes (for the worse) ,and cut cost (usually a result of the downgraded changes). Obviously buy from whomever you wish, but know that this Chinese business practice will deter innovators from developing new products for you. You will end up with sub-par off the shelf junk to choose from.
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      08-29-2012, 12:24 PM   #74
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I definitely would not call the Wagner IC sub par junk. TBH I never considered the Helix when looking for ICs as it was out of my price range. The difference between the Helix and the Wagner is similar to Porsche vs. BMW. I dont really look at them as the same level of product. That being said I am happy with the cheaper option knowing it won't perform like a Porsche.

Have you every considered manufacturing a slightly cheaper FMIC that allows the use of stock plumbing and removes some of the bells and whistles of the current Helix FMIC? I think that would be a direct competitor to the Wagner IC. I dont see the Wagner being a competitor to the Helix. It isn't as good but it is 90+% there for 60-70% the cost.
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      08-29-2012, 12:58 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shiv@vishnu View Post
Or maybe they want to address some common misconceptions about IC design.
Ditto!
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      08-29-2012, 01:06 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest View Post
If you look closely Wagner and Forge for that matter; you will see they have a history of directly (close enough to directly) copying other manufactures' developments. Look at Forge with Bailey Bypass valves. Look at Wagner vs. AWE intercoolers. This is not an honest or ethical business practice in my view. They are riding the coat tails of other companies R&D, make minimal changes (for the worse) ,and cut cost (usually a result of the downgraded changes). Obviously buy from whomever you wish, but know that this Chinese business practice will deter innovators from developing new products for you. You will end up with sub-par off the shelf junk to choose from.
I ave the ER intercooler and I am still switching to a helix.....you can see the difference in build quality. The helix is just built better....I compared my ER to the helix and the welds and overall look off the intercooler is better. With that said I am in NO way saying the ER doesn't perform because it does but the helix has the total pkg looks/performance/build quality. I am in the progressed seeing how the ER tubing will line up with the helix and if the short ER pipe will fit with the helix piping if I decide to do away with the ER piping (I rather not).
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      08-29-2012, 09:16 PM   #77
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+1 for non-square row ends. Looking forward to seeing helix's results.
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      08-30-2012, 11:02 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Helix Wildebeest View Post
If you look closely Wagner and Forge for that matter; you will see they have a history of directly (close enough to directly) copying other manufactures' developments. Look at Forge with Bailey Bypass valves. Look at Wagner vs. AWE intercoolers. This is not an honest or ethical business practice in my view. They are riding the coat tails of other companies R&D, make minimal changes (for the worse) ,and cut cost (usually a result of the downgraded changes). Obviously buy from whomever you wish, but know that this Chinese business practice will deter innovators from developing new products for you. You will end up with sub-par off the shelf junk to choose from.
Welcome to E90post. LOL
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      08-30-2012, 12:18 PM   #79
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Welcome to E90post. LOL
I know you know our frustration. To add insult to injury on our Mini R56 stepped core intercooler, we were originally copied by Forge and then recently Wagner copied the Forge intercooler so they actually copied a copy... Pretty easy to keep costs down with a R&D budget of $0
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