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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Really!! Another E85 Thread...



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      07-11-2012, 07:00 PM   #23
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on my first tank of 50/50 of 93oct/e85. love it. absolutely feel the power increase especially the torque. car idles perfect, runs perfect, not a single code, nice logs, etc etc. car is a monster now with e85 and meth
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      07-11-2012, 07:21 PM   #24
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on my first tank of 50/50 of 93oct/e85. love it. absolutely feel the power increase especially the torque. car idles perfect, runs perfect, not a single code, nice logs, etc etc. car is a monster now with e85 and meth
Where are you buying your E85 in NJ?? I bought mine out of West Orange, was a little shady for my taste. Might hit up Newark Airport next time
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      07-11-2012, 07:31 PM   #25
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HEY GUYS

e85 makes your car angry, hence more power

A guy talked to a guy who knows a BMW injector guru who said that e85 will melt the filter in n54 injectors.

The N54 tuner market is SO behind the e85 curve it's laughable. Please search e85 on nasioc, iwsti, evom, etc. It's 2012, we aren't supposed to be telling e85 ghost stories around the campfire anymore.
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      07-11-2012, 07:37 PM   #26
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I feel bad for trolling, here's some constructive input:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714433
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      07-11-2012, 07:55 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
HEY GUYS

e85 makes your car angry, hence more power

A guy talked to a guy who knows a BMW injector guru who said that e85 will melt the filter in n54 injectors.

The N54 tuner market is SO behind the e85 curve it's laughable. Please search e85 on nasioc, iwsti, evom, etc. It's 2012, we aren't supposed to be telling e85 ghost stories around the campfire anymore.
Nice point.

I had EVO x before bimmer, they at least have to replace the injectors to run E85.

One point is they need inject more fuel into the engine, other point is maybe the OEM injectors can't handle the E85!(EDIT: it may melt as dfv2 said)

EDIT: About long term, exactly how long is long term? Some people run E85 for 10k maybe 20K without problem, maybe the problem will appear in 30K or 40K.
At lest we know running E85 will harm the fuel system.

Always remember, pay to play, for people really want power, a set of injectors will not become a problem.
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      07-11-2012, 08:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted View Post
Nice point.

I had EVO x before bimmer, they at least have to replace the injectors to run E85.

One point is they need inject more fuel into the engine, other point is maybe the OEM injectors can't handle the E85!

EDIT: About long term, exactly how long is long term? Some people run E85 for 10k maybe 20K without problem, maybe the problem will appear in 30K or 40K.
At lest we know running E85 will harm the fuel system.

Always remember, pay to play, for people really want power, a set of injectors will not become a problem.
We dont need larger injectors at this power level. 100% E85 with upgraded turbo(s) - maybe. BMW way overengineered the fuel system, making it a requirement that they car could run off LPFP only if it needed to. I believe the continental engineer that DFV2 mentioned was qouted as saying the injectors could support 20 gallons a minute, which is huge.
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      07-11-2012, 08:53 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulz_M3 View Post
We dont need larger injectors at this power level. 100% E85 with upgraded turbo(s) - maybe. BMW way overengineered the fuel system, making it a requirement that they car could run off LPFP only if it needed to. I believe the continental engineer that DFV2 mentioned was qouted as saying the injectors could support 20 gallons a minute, which is huge.
Indeed, the injection on EVO is port injection, we has direct inject. OEM injectors on EVO X is like what, 560cc

My point is that E85 may harm the injectors in the long term.
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      07-11-2012, 08:59 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred_Boosted View Post
Indeed, the injection on EVO is port injection, we has direct inject. OEM injectors on EVO X is like what, 560cc

My point is that E85 may harm the injectors in the long term.
Doubtful, our injectors are prone to requiring replacement anyways.

BTW, where can i buy that snail-rocket conversion kit in your sig and is it compatible with my French Bulldog?
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      07-11-2012, 09:05 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lulz_M3 View Post
Doubtful, our injectors are prone to requiring replacement anyways.

BTW, where can i buy that snail-rocket conversion kit in your sig and is it compatible with my French Bulldog?
LOL

Your French bulldog is faster enough, much better than the snail.
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      07-11-2012, 09:17 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
I feel bad for trolling, here's some constructive input:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=714433
I knew I could count on you. I did read your thread before I created this one. Frankly the room spins when I read it. Not everyone has been tuning for many years. Yes, the more I read it and the more research, it does begin to make more and more sense.. but.. there will still be some noobs seeking advice even if the ghost stories were told years ago. Some things are not always understood by reading a post with 7 different acronyms in one paragraph. that's why guys like me rely on OTC maps and straight forward responses.

I am not concerned with my 20% mix, though if I decide to do more, there is no way I could do what you can do with ATR. I understand your trolling, and I can imagine your frustration with noobs. enjoy your custom E85 tuning, maybe one day you can show us noobs how to do it.
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      07-11-2012, 09:36 PM   #33
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OVER 40K with E85

FYI...

I have the 535i with JB4, 15 ohms and DCI

I've been running 50/50 - 91/E85 for over 40K

NO Issues, NO Codes

My car LOVES this stuff


E85 FTW !!



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      07-12-2012, 12:21 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VNeBLOB42 View Post
I knew I could count on you. walloftext. maybe one day you can show us noobs how to do it.
Challenge accepted, this is a non-techie wall of text back at you:

Other port-injected markets swap injectors to inject the massive amount of fuel required to support higher HP with typically pure e85, compared to stock gasoline requirements. It's never done, to my knowledge, for the sake of material issues with e85. In fact, I just plain haven't seen diddly to support e85's corrosive-witchcraft with ANY late model vehicle. I am fairly confident that the n54 market will enjoy 100% e85 tuning via cobb in the next year. Piggies cannot support such a thing without taking some leaps of faith, but I digress.

e85 will do nothing for you on a stock tune except restore power lost due to excessive timing being pulled. Same goes for any tune - e85 simply and purely raises the knock threshold. You can run more timing, more boost, and make more power before running into knock ('bad' timing corrections - the stock tune makes a living correcting timing even on good 93 octane).

The N54 DME allows for 34% more fuel to be added to the original amount it expects to inject for gasoline for a certain load/rpm/afr. Basically, you need more e85 per unit of air mixture than gasoline to hit stoich, so the DME adds e85 by upping STFT% realtime, fully closed loop, to hit AFR targets. It says "woah wtf this mix is running LEAN add fuel, add fuel, add fuel, ok it's close, add some more, ok now we're good." Make sense? LTFT learns this for idle and cruise, STFT deals exclusively with this issue during WOT.

Go over 34% STFT, and you will run lean because the DME has no further authority to inject more fuel. You will pop mixture codes with a CEL. I hit this ceiling at 45% e85.

Bottom line: Piggies have some maps that take advantage of the higher knock threshold of e85 mixes. They either run more boost, more timing, leaner AFR, or all three. ATR is a sandbox and suffice to say the same is true, everything can be made more "aggressive" to find power under this higher knock threshold. Stock tunes will recover lost power due to timing corrections being reduced. Most stay around 20-40% mixed, almost noone does more than 50% right now due to inherent DME limitations, namely STFT at WOT.
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      07-12-2012, 12:26 AM   #35
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Click and read through, there are enough parallels to make it a worthy bored-at-work browse: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
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      07-12-2012, 12:38 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
Click and read through, there are enough parallels to make it a worthy bored-at-work browse: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
Great linky
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      07-12-2012, 09:41 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
Challenge accepted, this is a non-techie wall of text back at you:
Nice write up! This makes sense for noobs like me to understand more clearly. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dfv2 View Post
Click and read through, there are enough parallels to make it a worthy bored-at-work browse: http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803341
I didn't even know about E85 until reading on e90post.com.. this thread (link above) was posted in 2005... didn't even know E85 existed then.
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Last edited by VNeBLOB42; 07-12-2012 at 07:53 PM. Reason: grammar and year change to 2005
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      07-12-2012, 09:58 AM   #38
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Great info here, I think I will get some e85 tonight!
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      07-12-2012, 10:35 AM   #39
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There are also some additives out there that minimiZe the corrosive properties of e85. Anyone using them?
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      07-13-2012, 07:58 AM   #40
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I was talking with someone locally who was testing the ethanol content in various gas stations and he said some were testing as high as 17% even though they reported 10%. My point in bringing this up is that it's probably difficult to know exactly what we're getting.

With all that being said, I've been running a 50/50 mix with PROcede for about 2 weeks. I noticed that the car seems to be adapting to it rather nicely as the timing looks better than it did when I first ran it. (Probably took some time to get the mixture right in my tank and for the car to adapt.)
Yeah, the ethanol definitely gives you an effective "octane boost", but I'd be wary of the long-term effects. Word on the street at one time was that the ethanol content in most gasolines in the US was a contributing factor to low- and high-pressure fuel pumps. It is somewhat corrosive to rubber parts in the system.
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      07-13-2012, 08:36 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Yeah, the ethanol definitely gives you an effective "octane boost", but I'd be wary of the long-term effects. Word on the street at one time was that the ethanol content in most gasolines in the US was a contributing factor to low- and high-pressure fuel pumps. It is somewhat corrosive to rubber parts in the system.
ghost stories around the camp fire
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      07-13-2012, 08:43 AM   #42
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ghost stories around the camp fire
Yes, but the fact remains that our E9x series cars are not equipped to use anything more than the ethanol content in "normal" gasoline - the owner's manual specifically states this. Our cars are not "flex-fuel" vehicles equipped with the necessary parts to resist the corrosive effects ethanol has on rubber and other items. Using high percentages of ethanol could result in warranty denial if problems arise, but again - anyone is free to use whatever fuel they want to put in their cars, but they need to understand the implications and possible negative effects.
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      07-13-2012, 08:47 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Yes, but the fact remains that our E9x series cars are not equipped to use anything more than the ethanol content in "normal" gasoline - the owner's manual specifically states this. Our cars are not "flex-fuel" vehicles equipped with the necessary parts to resist the corrosive effects ethanol has on rubber and other items. Using high percentages of ethanol could result in warranty denial if problems arise, but again - anyone is free to use whatever fuel they want to put in their cars, but they need to understand the implications and possible negative effects.
Really, because the manual doesn't state so, lol.

It scares me where aftermarket products would be if they only followed the owners manual.
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      07-13-2012, 08:51 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by skysurfer_535i View Post
I've been running 50/50 - 91/E85 for over 40K

NO Issues, NO Codes

My car LOVES this stuff


E85 FTW !!



How are you mixing? Just filling up 1/2 way with 91 + the other 1/2 with E85? Or are you actually measuring it out to make sure you have a consistent 50:50 blend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by roundel335 View Post
Yes, but the fact remains that our E9x series cars are not equipped to use anything more than the ethanol content in "normal" gasoline - the owner's manual specifically states this. Our cars are not "flex-fuel" vehicles equipped with the necessary parts to resist the corrosive effects ethanol has on rubber and other items. Using high percentages of ethanol could result in warranty denial if problems arise, but again - anyone is free to use whatever fuel they want to put in their cars, but they need to understand the implications and possible negative effects.
So don't run straight E85 Running a 50:50 blend or anything lower gives you all the benefits of running E85 (less expensive the race gas, quality octane bump, prevents knock/timing corrections) without the major risks (fuel injector flow issues, HPFP/LPFP abuse, etc).
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