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      06-30-2012, 07:34 PM   #265
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Helix for me too! And hopefully I'll have the guys in Manayunk handle the install too. Somebody please PM me with experimental data showing that an oil catch can is necessary with boosting up to 18 psi. Thanks.
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      07-04-2012, 09:08 PM   #266
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Guys,

this thread is great but can someone jus clarify few things for me, can we conclude that Helix can b the best FMIC. How about ETS? It has the most pressure drop but from the data posted by Michael @ ETS (If i rmber his name right) that it has the best ability to keep IAT low? I just bought one and it is sitting in the garage waiting to be installed... would definitely like to know what is the downside of higher pressure drop.. Can I not run a more aggressive map to "artifically keep the boost level high, so that it will be back to the PSI level I wanted despite the effect of pressure drop? Sorry about this noob question but Im a bit lost after reading so many people's different view and comments.

Thanks,
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      09-10-2012, 10:05 AM   #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTurboBullett View Post

HELIX-Intercooler Efficiency 86% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-85
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 249

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-249
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-85
Plenum Temp-108
IC Efficiency-86%

AMS-Intercooler Efficiency 79% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 214

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-214
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-112
IC Efficiency-79%

ETS-Intercooler Efficiency 78% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-58
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14.5
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 213

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-213
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-58
Plenum Temp-93
IC Efficiency-78%

SPEARCO/Code 3-Intercooler Efficiency 54% through 3 gears
Turbo Outlet Temp Calculator
inlet temperature-65
input pressure-14.5
output pressure-14
compressor efficiency-70%
Outlet Temp- 223

Intercooler Outlet Temperature and Pressure Calculator
IC input Temperature-223
IC Pressure loss-.5
Ambient Temp-65
Plenum Temp-139
IC Efficiency-54%
Any chance we could get this updated with the VRSF 7" intercooler specs?

Debating between it and ETS.
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      09-17-2012, 05:00 PM   #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by str8shot View Post
Any chance we could get this updated with the VRSF 7" intercooler specs?

Debating between it and ETS.
Dont forget VRSF also has a 5 in core coming in 1-2 months.

I am trying to decide between ETS, VRSF and the CPE. I havent really seen a lot of info on the CPE in this post.
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      09-18-2012, 11:13 AM   #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drm916 View Post
Dont forget VRSF also has a 5 in core coming in 1-2 months.

I am trying to decide between ETS, VRSF and the CPE. I havent really seen a lot of info on the CPE in this post.
Yes, I'm aware. I'm more tempted to go ETS based on the data that's available.

It'd be nice if someone could do a similar test so we can see actual efficiency, etc.

And not just the same half a$$ log that's been presented over and over in all the VRSF threads.

Want to see some conclusive, hard data.
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      09-18-2012, 11:21 AM   #270
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I'll do the testing for HPF intercooler if you give me the methods you need me to use. I am too lazy to read through 11 pages to find them. LOL
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      09-18-2012, 11:29 AM   #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by str8shot View Post
Yes, I'm aware. I'm more tempted to go ETS based on the data that's available.

It'd be nice if someone could do a similar test so we can see actual efficiency, etc.

And not just the same half a$$ log that's been presented over and over in all the VRSF threads.

Want to see some conclusive, hard data.
You do realize that those are calculated values, right? Look at how they ALL have the same inlet/outlet pressures, pressure loss, and compressor efficiency.... The only different data from IC to IC is Ambient, starting temp, and final temp. No one measured IC efficiency. TT made some assumptions on a "standard" car and then plugged in data from other users and a calculator spit out a number. You could do the same thing for all of the VRSF logs.
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      09-18-2012, 12:50 PM   #272
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drm916 View Post
Dont forget VRSF also has a 5 in core coming in 1-2 months.

I am trying to decide between ETS, VRSF and the CPE. I havent really seen a lot of info on the CPE in this post.
CP-e: Some good info in their "whitepaper".
http://cp-e.com/sites/default/files/files/n54FMIC.pdf
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      09-18-2012, 02:57 PM   #273
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what would on estimate that you are robbed power wise while retaining the OEM connectors on an intercooler... I cant see it being more than 5hp... am I incorrect?
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      09-18-2012, 03:58 PM   #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adictedtopoker View Post
You do realize that those are calculated values, right? Look at how they ALL have the same inlet/outlet pressures, pressure loss, and compressor efficiency.... The only different data from IC to IC is Ambient, starting temp, and final temp. No one measured IC efficiency. TT made some assumptions on a "standard" car and then plugged in data from other users and a calculator spit out a number. You could do the same thing for all of the VRSF logs.
Plenty of data on ETS intercoolers.







This is using an AEM as an external logger on a dyno.



You can see in this picture on the OEM intercooler (left) we actually put GM temp sensor in the inlet and outlet to get correct temps from an external source. The car literally had nothing to do with the loggeing besides making a pull

Michael
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      09-18-2012, 04:22 PM   #275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ETS Michael View Post
Plenty of data on ETS intercoolers.

Michael
I know you guys have a lot of data. I was just pointing out that the "hard" data that str8shot was referring to (posted by TT) was nothing more than a calculation based on a standard set of assumptions and some logs. The same "hard" data could be replicated for VRSF if so desired.

I'm not arguing for one IC over another, just pointing something out.
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      09-18-2012, 09:23 PM   #276
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Ooh Michael, Michael,

Yes, we all have seen this data multiple times. When will you post pressure drop data for your intercoolers? The ETS intercoolers have a high pressure drop. Your earlier intercoolers had bigger pressure drop than the stock one, but you somehow seem to omit this from your posts.
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      09-18-2012, 10:12 PM   #277
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This thread is still kicking!
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      09-19-2012, 09:49 AM   #278
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChuckD05 View Post
what would on estimate that you are robbed power wise while retaining the OEM connectors on an intercooler... I cant see it being more than 5hp... am I incorrect?
really wondering about this
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      03-17-2013, 02:26 AM   #279
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a lot of good reading on this thread

thanks to everyone that contributed
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      03-17-2013, 11:00 AM   #280
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As a FYI

AA Sport intercooler with a ER Charge pipe will require some convincing to install. The only issue part is intake side where the outlet of the intercooler goes up to charge pipe. You have to push down the sleeve enough to make room so it is not a "complete" smooth transition. Just a heads up.
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      03-19-2013, 04:07 PM   #281
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there is a new FMIC in the game this week. Cobb has released their helix-like stepped intercooler. It looks pretty nice and I'm thinking about jumping on it.

Wondering if anyone is interested in it as well.
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      03-25-2013, 12:46 AM   #282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukezero View Post
there is a new FMIC in the game this week. Cobb has released their helix-like stepped intercooler. It looks pretty nice and I'm thinking about jumping on it.

Wondering if anyone is interested in it as well.
++1
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      04-07-2013, 02:12 AM   #283
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Originally, I had my heart set on the beautiful Cobb FMIC.

But then I found my perfect intercooler in terms of having all the criteria I wanted:

1. low price
2. utilizes factory hoses (no cutting)
3. direct bolt-on (no bumper cutting, no trimming, no compromises)
4. helix/cobb style (stepped intercooler)
5. anodized
6. data posted by several members that backed low IATs

And I found it! It was the Wagner upgrade intercooler. Let's just say, it was 30% cheaper than the Cobb intercooler. It was very hard decision to justify spending more for the Cobb since the performance would not be 1:1 dollar for dollar gain. Other intercoolers like ETS and Helix are great, but their price was high and didn't meet my criteria. After speaking to Jeff from TopGearTuning, he is right. All intercoolers will outperform the stock one by a huge margin. But comparing each intercooler is going to be just a popularity contest. Even the cheapo $300 Godspeed ebay intercooler has some decent results for its price.

Anyways, what set me to finally buy it was when i talked to literally 4-5 members on e90post and 1addicts who have this intercooler. They all loved it and proved IATs were low. Again, I'm not going to sit here and bash any other intercooler or say Wagner is the best.

What I'm trying to say is, for the money I was willing to spend, it met all my expectations and has backed up data.

Here are some pictures on this beauty.

It weighs 19.5 lbs, very heavy in my opinion compared to stock. Came double boxed, well packaged from Germany. I also love the fact it has upgraded studs and the intercooler will sit on the nut. That way, when you take out the intercooler each time, you are not wearing out the plastic mount that the stock screws bolt into. Rather, you just unscrew the nut and the studs stay in place. Very awesome design!
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      05-07-2013, 01:33 AM   #284
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nukezero View Post
1. low price
2. utilizes factory hoses (no cutting)
3. direct bolt-on (no bumper cutting, no trimming, no compromises)
4. helix/cobb style (stepped intercooler)
5. anodized
6. data posted by several members that backed low IATs
Wagner is painted, not anodized. Otherwise looks like a great FMIC!
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      05-18-2013, 05:44 PM   #285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spdu4ea View Post
That's actually a tough question because there is a lot of stuff acting behind the scenes. To (over)simplify, here are some very general rules on ICs:


Longer Intercoolers:
Cool better*
Have more pressure drop

Taller ICs:
Cool better*
Have less pressure drop

Thicker ICs:
Cool slightly better
Have less pressure drop


*Assuming that all of the IC face is still exposed to fresh air



So I'm not even sure if "Volume" is that useful of a reference. To go into a little more detail (on Cores alone), here is some data from Bell:




IC #1:
3x12x12
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 432
CFM: 619


IC #2:
3x6x24
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 432
CFM: 237


IC #3:
3x24x6
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 432
CFM: 1385


I've simplified it so all 3 intercoolers have the same frontal area and volume , but you can see that the taller/shorter the IC, the better it flows.


Not lets take IC #2 and play with lengths:

IC #2:
3x6x24
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 432
CFM: 237

IC #4:
3x6x12
Frontal area: 72
Volume: 216
CFM: 302

IC #5:
3x6x6
Frontal area: 36
Volume: 108
CFM: 350


This should make sense -- the longer the intercooler, the more restriction -- which means the lower the CFM at a given pressure drop. IC #2 will cool best out of this group, IC 5 will flow best...



Now lets take IC #1 and play with thickness:

IC #1:
3x12x12
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 432
CFM: 619

IC #6:
4.5x12x12
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 648
CFM: 928

IC #7:
6x12x12
Frontal area: 144
Volume: 864
CFM: 1238

IC #7 won't cool twice as much as IC #1, but it will still cool a little better. And it flows twice as much.



OK, so the above should make flow rates fairly clear -- but it's still lacking some details on heat transfer:

Newton's Law of Cooling:


Q = Thermal energy in joules
h = Heat transfer coefficient
A = Surface area of the heat being transferred
T = Temperature of the object's surface and interior (since these are the same in this approximation)
Tenv = Temperature of the environment
ΔT(t) = T(t) − Tenv is the time-dependent thermal gradient between environment and object


Before your eyes glass over, it isn't that bad. For our Air-to-Air ICs, all we need to see is:

The more surface area -- the more heat transferred
The greater the temperature difference -- the more heat transferred


Pretty simple, right? So let's see how it applies to the various core dimensions:


Longer Intercoolers:
* Increase total surface area (more heat transferred)
* Increases the time the charge air spends inside the intercooler (more time for heat to transfer, but less efficiently at the end of the IC than beginning. Remember that the greater the temperature difference, the more heat transfer, and the charge air will cool as it passes through the IC so deltaT is lower near the outlet).

Taller Intercoolers:
* Increase total surface area (more heat transferred)
* No change in time the charge air spends inside (IC efficiency doesn't drop off as much from one side of core to other)

Thicker intercoolers:
* Increase total surface area (remember there are comparably more fins even though frontal area is unchanged). However, the ambient air temperature goes up as it passes through the IC (ambient at entrance of IC, hotter in middle, hottest at exit). So while the total surface area increases, the heat exchanging efficiency decreases the thicker you go since the temperature gradient becomes smaller.



From this we see that the most efficient IC for maximum heat exchange and minimal pressure drop is going to be a short, tall IC (pretty much the opposite of the stock IC). The compromises start when we need to worry about airflow -- does the bumper block airflow to the top of the IC? Will the IC block airflow to the radiator (or heat it up too much)? Ah, now the factory design starts to make more sense...


OK, so why not just go with the biggest sucker that will fit? Larger cores cost more, but more importantly, they also increase lag. Ideally you match the core to your power & cooling needs (someone running race gas on the road course in Canada will want a smaller IC than someone trying to get the same power from pump gas in Texas for highway racing).



Still with me? "But wait, there's more..." All of this assumes that each shop is using comparable cores & end tank designs (they're not!).




Close-up Garret (top) vs Spearco (bottom):


Squared end tanks increase turbulence (and increase the pressure drop)

Rounded end tanks decrease turbulence (and decrease pressure drop)


more info: http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/intecoolersMR.htm
http://dvdtfab.com/intercoolertestlab.pdf
Great info!
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      04-15-2014, 11:09 PM   #286
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Reviving a dead thread, so is this still a popularity contest a year later?
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