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      09-09-2012, 09:40 PM   #45
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A 1/4 gain sounds ok but maybe set them by ear if you can or a multimeter just so you have some reference points. Hopefully it will sound even better after a retune. Also, now that you have a partially amped system you may find this thread useful http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=709393

Yeah it feels good when you upgrade slowly, makes the whole experience last longer!
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      09-10-2012, 01:12 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17
A 1/4 gain sounds ok but maybe set them by ear if you can or a multimeter just so you have some reference points. Hopefully it will sound even better after a retune. Also, now that you have a partially amped system you may find this thread useful http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=709393

Yeah it feels good when you upgrade slowly, makes the whole experience last longer!
In quiks case he only has one pair of amped channels so no need to worry about finding his max on the xd. Simply use the test me u on ms-8 and level match the dls against the woofers
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      09-11-2012, 11:03 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mob17 View Post
A 1/4 gain sounds ok but maybe set them by ear if you can or a multimeter just so you have some reference points. Hopefully it will sound even better after a retune. Also, now that you have a partially amped system you may find this thread useful http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=709393

Yeah it feels good when you upgrade slowly, makes the whole experience last longer!
I will read the thread even if its just to gain some knowledge!!! Thanks! Currently only the underseats are amp'd ( besides the MS8 running everything else ).

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
In quiks case he only has one pair of amped channels so no need to worry about finding his max on the xd.
Simply use the test me u on ms-8 and level match the dls against the woofers
Gonna level match this weekend and retune if the underseats are distorting or overpowered I will lower the gain.. As a basic config at 1/4 gain ( 9oclock like technic did in another thread ) it sounds
great as is, but that doesnt mean it cannot improve. The E90 install has def been a sweet plug n play affair compared to past installs ive done esp with the harness & battery with distribution block in the trunk already.
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      09-12-2012, 12:14 AM   #48
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Well finally installed an amp, The MS8 sounds great in its own but after reading and talking to many of the big dogs of this site they suggested
the next biggest bang for the buck after the MS8 is to amp the underseats + add a sub. I havent added the sub just yet but started with the amp
in preparation for a future sub.

Ive seen many use a 400/4 for the underseats and then bridge the other 2 channels to the sub, From speaking with Taibanl this nets you
a 200watt sub channel and he suggested a JL 500/3. You get the same 2 - 100w RMS channels for your underseats + a 300w subchannel.
It was a no brainer to go with the 500/3.

Stage II
  • JL Audio 500/3 Amp
  • Stinger 6" RCA's / 60amp circuit breaker / 18gauge remote wire
  • Knuconcepts 8 Gauge Power / Ground / 12 Gauge speaker wire / 18 gauge wire for underseats
  • Sat Receiver removal ( see above )
  • BMW Connector + pins for power wire ( see above )

Lets get started, time to rip the trunk all apart... Plastic pry tools helped a ton here.



Cut the wires from the Technic harness to MS8 for the underseat 8's and spliced them into some 18gauge extensions which will mate with the amp.
Hard to see but I also ran my 8gauge ground wire to the stock ground plate on the drivers side wheel arch and a pair of RCA's from the MS8.



Next ran 8 gauge power wire to a 60amp circuit breaker and finally to an OEM connector that plugs into the factory distribution block.



You'll also see I pre-wired some 12 gauge wire for my future subwoofer, no need to rip the trunk up all over again.



Put the trunk all back together and wired up the amp, All wire was covered in techflex sleeving mostly just for a cleaner
appearance ( I try to keep it as clean as possible), You can see the old SAT Tuner stuff zip tied and out of the way.



Thats it the install is all done, When you first open the trunk it looks 100% stock. If you open the trunk floor your greeted with a cleanly installed MS8



and if you remove the trunk cover completely you will see the MS8 + JL 500/3



All thats left is to tune and get the sound perfect, Currently the gain for the midbass channels are set to 1/4 and im still on the old tune.
It sounds amazing as is, the difference in sound is bigger than going to the MS8 from stock.

Soon ill get to installing the R4 front speakers im still working on the adaptors.

For anyone looking to do a similar build ( which is very easy based on the tried and true setups posted in the audio forum )
I have done this full build up to this point even including the DLS R4s I havent installed yet for $1250
thats including every part from BMW etc thats the total! Of course its DIY and done myself.

Overall I couldn't do 1/2 of this stuff without the help from this forum, the sound improvement is amazing!
My favorite part is when your sitting in the drivers seat or looking in the trunk, You cant even tell anything has been changed.
Once you start turning the knob that all changes very fast
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      09-23-2012, 08:56 PM   #49
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Well tonight I had a few minutes, Still didnt get to level match but the gain is at a decent level by ear about 9oclock position.
I will set correctly asap but didnt have enough time to remove the trunk floor and get a screwdriver etc.

I re-ran the calibration same as my last calibration :

* Front = 2-way, * 50Hz subsonic/24dB, 200Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -21dB
* Main volume after calibration = -6dB

But this time since I knew it was working pretty damn good I figured I would calibrate the passenger side as well and then set the seating position to front instead of "Driver"

Is "FRONT" the best setting im assuming since there usually almost always me and my gf in the car.

Well damn it sounds totally diff, Is this what you guys usually do when you get a tune you like? Calibrate Driver side, then passenger side then set the MS8 to FRONT?

This is the first time I did both seating positions and once I set to front the Center channel mellows out alot. Maybe this was my reasoning for thinking the Center was overpowering besides that its currently my most efficient speaker?

Just from changing it from driver to front it changes the center behaviour and I believe sounds way more balanced across the stage ( from left to center to right ).
( so this could be some more lack of MS8 knowledge on my part ).

Do you guys usually do it that way? Again it seems I upped the bar for the sound as I continue to get it perfect.
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      09-23-2012, 09:01 PM   #50
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No. Setting to front averages (effectively disables) time alignment for the front seats

Dont pay too much attention to the volume of the center. Instead listen to placebt of instruments and voices across your windshield.

Edit:

I can listen to a band and hear the vocalist dead center, guitars on either side of that (in front of each seat lets say) kick drum dead center and drum rolls across the windshield. Thats why you want time alignment for your seat.
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      09-23-2012, 10:12 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
No. Setting to front averages (effectively disables) time alignment for the front seats

Dont pay too much attention to the volume of the center. Instead listen to placebt of instruments and voices across your windshield.

Edit:

I can listen to a band and hear the vocalist dead center, guitars on either side of that (in front of each seat lets say) kick drum dead center and drum rolls across the windshield. Thats why you want time alignment for your seat.
Gotcha, Well that would explain why it almost sounded like Logic 7 was turned off. So what setting do you leave it on?
Driver all the time? I dont listen to alot of rock ( some ) but not a ton., Mostly techno so there is rarely singing.

It seems like some songs (techno) sound mono from that center channel and others the L7 does wonders too.
Its like the songs are programmed diff ( just how it sounds ) some stuff sounds great and then the next song sounds
terrible vs the stock config sounded the same across all music types more well rounded ( this maybe normal ).

Example - At home I listen to alot of music while on my computer ( I do computer work for a living ). I have a decent
computer with some nice audiophile grade speakers ( http://audioengineusa.com/ ) when I flick on itunes and listen
to streaming audio or a mp3 every song pretty much sounds great & solid.

When I listen to the same stations or songs in my car some sound good some sound muddy some sound hollow etc..
But in the house it all sounds good highs are always crisp and mids hit nice.

Ill have to see after I get my sub, It could just be i missing frequencies but I dunno.

Time for more tuning lol still learning the ins/outs of the MS8, Sub should be here in next month.

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      09-23-2012, 10:27 PM   #52
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THAT is your problem. Techno is not like normal music. It lacks the information the processor is looking for to build up a stage in front of you. Techno doesn't have a stage.

You should try turning L7 off. It sounds like you may have made the wrong investment. I remember Oca123 also listened to techno and he could never get the ms8 to sound "right". You may very well be in the same boat.
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      09-23-2012, 10:55 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
THAT is your problem. Techno is not like normal music. It lacks the information the processor is looking for to build up a stage in front of you. Techno doesn't have a stage.

You should try turning L7 off. It sounds like you may have made the wrong investment. I remember Oca123 also listened to techno and he could never get the ms8 to sound "right". You may very well be in the same boat.
Yeah I listen to very little rock / rap, Mostly electronic genre's..

Ive made great progress but sometimes its just frustrating cause I cant get it to sound how I expect it to. Ive done a ton of systems
in all my cars over the years never with a DSP and it was fairly easy to get them sounding great w/a 4 channel doing the components
front/rear and another amp for the sub.

Im hoping to get this to sound good, really trying to do it once correct and be done. Either way im having fun and
learning just wanted something that sounds good like my home stereo and computer audio system.
Crisp highs Solid mids and a nice deep clean bass.. No hollow muddy mono sound.

I can tell a huge diff in my car from a standard hifi setup that seems very left / right biased I love the image across the
front its just the prob with some songs sound good some sound terrible etc.
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      09-24-2012, 12:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69
THAT is your problem. Techno is not like normal music. It lacks the information the processor is looking for to build up a stage in front of you. Techno doesn't have a stage.

You should try turning L7 off. It sounds like you may have made the wrong investment. I remember Oca123 also listened to techno and he could never get the ms8 to sound "right". You may very well be in the same boat.
Dont concur

Some of the BEST sounding stuff ive heard has been techno. Dont normally listen to it but when played i was like wow this sounds cool as hell!
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      09-24-2012, 12:02 PM   #55
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With L7 off you will still get a center image (with center off) when time aligned for driver seat.
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      09-24-2012, 12:19 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Some of the BEST sounding stuff ive heard has been techno. Dont normally listen to it but when played i was like wow this sounds cool as hell!
Yes some of the techno sounds great some doesn't, Its hit or miss with all types of music. ( dont get me wrong were fine tuning and making progress )
With the MS8 one song will sound perfect and then next mono-ish and its usually 50% not sounding correct and 50% sounding correct.

Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
With L7 off you will still get a center image (with center off) when time aligned for driver seat.
Wow with L7 off sounds worse than on ( I think its growing on me ), I will admit with ROCK it sounds pretty dead on really good w/L7 on and set for drivers position.
Just not so much with techno / electronic, When it was on FRONT for seating position it appeared to improve for when playing techno.

My other car has what I would call basic or traditional old school setup which to me reproduces all music equally as good .
Yes it may not have the greatest stage but I can throw rock, rap, techno etc all at it crisp highs, nice mids and deep solid bass.

Similar to how it sounded on the stock BMW setup ( just mean the well rounded-ness not SQ, thats improved 10x over ),
the same across the board all types of music whether being played from radio / MP3 / iPhone etc.
Quote:
System in other car :
  • Alpine 4v headunit
  • Kicker 5 channel amp ( 75x5 / 300x1 )
  • CDT 6.5 Components
  • CDT 6.5 Coax ( rear )
  • Kicker Solo Baric 10" circa 1998
Just trying to raise the bar compared to my old system, Volumes not the issue its plenty loud w/MS8 esp now that I added the 500/3.

More and more tinkering is needed, Learning alot here and welcome all the help. Without it I would of probably given up a while ago, Maybe once I have a sub it will sound diff
as well since im missing that range of low end fill. The mids are hitting nicely just doesnt sound balanced and is muddy-hollow at times

Hopefully I get the SUB+R4 fronts installed shortly, Overall im happy its progressing.
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      09-24-2012, 07:36 PM   #57
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Well either get the r4s installed now or do a proper level match and tune
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      09-24-2012, 09:29 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Well either get the r4s installed now or do a proper level match and tune
I know I will asap, There was no interest really on my R4 adaptors... I had the design traced into cad and I will be epoxing them to the cut stock frames.

Should be rock solid and bolt in like stock, Stay tuned and thanks for the patience! Having a 7 month old makes free time hard at times.
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      09-24-2012, 09:33 PM   #59
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Just do this. Level match the underseat gain to equal the spl from your center @ driver's ear height. That should then be preset for the r4's. report back.

I think the center is strong vs the oem because of the sensitivity difference. I think a matched frontstage will be golden.
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      09-24-2012, 10:00 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
Just do this. Level match the underseat gain to equal the spl from your center @ driver's ear height. That should then be preset for the r4's. report back.

I think the center is strong vs the oem because of the sensitivity difference. I think a matched frontstage will be golden.
I think your right, Today I took a long cruise after work listening to tons of different music.. Techno / Jazz / rock with L7 On / Off / Set to driver / Set to Front etc.

Guess what, After having the MS8 for 2 months or so it sounds best on and set to driver for me w/L7 ON

Ill report back asap!
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      09-25-2012, 08:07 AM   #61
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It does take getting used to at the start but Driver position with L7 on is the best for me too.
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      10-09-2012, 12:33 AM   #62
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Quote:
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It does take getting used to at the start but Driver position with L7 on is the best for me too.
Agreed I hate to sound like a newb but I play alot of streamin audio from my iPhone...
When burning some tracks to an MP3 cd the system seems to sound more consistent..

It could be alot of the compressed streaming audio isnt coming through good.

Who knows but its sounding pretty damn good right now.

If everything goes as planned the R4's will be installed next week, Just waiting on a door panel to test fit the speakers w/adaptors I made.

I will keep everyone posted!

PS...
Last piece of the setup has been ordered


I think in the stock config the reason you have a ton more bass is the stock
underseats are setup to provide mid + some bass and now there just on mid duty.

This alone is going to fill in alot of the low end im missing.. The 8's currently have a real nice punch to them... I cant wait
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      10-29-2012, 01:58 AM   #63
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Stage III Coming after this stupid storm is done hitting NJ.
  • DLS R4 ( fronts )
  • VP Sub enclosure with ID10D4v3

Ken @ MusicarNW was awesome to deal with, Cant wait to install the rest of my setup.
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      11-12-2012, 08:14 PM   #64
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Well time for an update, Got my MusicarNW sub wow this is a nice piece.. Just press fits right in I love it & Ken was great to work with.

So on to the tuning ( Life of owning an MS8 )

So lowered volume on the MS8 to -21 db and level matched the underseats
to my center ( it was around 68db ). Used the JL Audio iPhone app and held
it around ear level.

Under-seats sound good now and blend well with everything..

Time to screw it all up with a new config lol.

Subwoofer Install & Config.

JL Amp Settings ( kaigoss )

2-way

Mids - HP 80/12 level matched to center
Sub - LP 80/12 ( 3/4 gain )

MS8 Settings

* Front = 2-way,
* 20Hz subsonic/24dB, 200Hz at 24dB Hi/Lo
* Center = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Sides = 1-way, 200Hz at 24dB
* Calibration volume = -21dB
* Main volume after calibration = -6dB

First Impressions -

Well I think I need to go back to tuning or making adjustments im not sure, But if history repeats it will improve drastically with some time.

The Subwoofer is an Image Dynamics ID10D4v.3 ( 4 ohm ) wired for 2 ohms.

The harness Ken supplies has 4 wires ( 2pos 2neg ) hopefully I did this right.

Twisted the two pos together ( then to 1 pos )
Twisted the two neg together ( then to 1 neg )

And ran that to the amp.

Now maybe thats not wired correctly or the 12hz slope is throwing me off
and I should switch the polarity? Would just involve wiring backwards?
+ wire to neg on amp and - wire to + on amp?

Current status - The bass is present and sounds OK but the more you turn up the volume the bass seems to get weaker and weaker.
I know this is a ( Sound Quality Sub ) but I feel somethings not right ( probaly the MS8 messing with me again ).

Its not hitting nearly as hard as I expected, My Solobaric S10' in my other car w/less watts rms ( 200watts ) hits 2x harder.
Im only throwing the comparison in there because its the only reference point i can compare to and its a simular SQ Sub in a small sealed enclosure with less watts.

Im sure improvements are to come, More than likely I need to play with more tuning + possibile mis-config.

As always thanks in advance for any advice guys, This system has came a long way & I am confident it will sounds perfect in the end.
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      11-12-2012, 10:35 PM   #65
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Did you let the sub break in?
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      11-12-2012, 11:55 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Did you let the sub break in?
I have not really laid into this sub yet I only turned it up briefly, Maybe 1 min most.. Other than that I have not
been playing it very loud at all since I didn't get a chance to finalize the tuning until tonight.

How long should I break it in for? Ive heard so much conflicting info on this subject on diyma / interwebs etc..

Ive never broken in a sub or had any problems in my 15 years of messing with audio ( not saying its correct ).

Any advice would be greatly appreciated
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