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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > LPFP upgrade - E85 users



View Poll Results: You want a pnp upgraded lpfp for E85 use?
YES give me one asap 93 95.88%
No, i dont wanna go fast 4 4.12%
Voters: 97. You may not vote on this poll

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      09-26-2012, 08:50 PM   #23
WilliamS
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Ethanol burns at roughly 150% that of the rate of 93 octane. So 93 octane we will use simple numbers would need 10 gallons to drive 1 hour. Where at E85 would use 15+ gallons on that same run. Becuase of this you need the pump to push more fuel up to the engine in the same amount of time.

So in short, you need to move more liquid with E85. Need higher volume fuel pump to keep up. This also helps if you are running say 93 octane becuase now you have more room to flow more fuel for more power.
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      09-26-2012, 09:00 PM   #24
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This is awesome! Definitely in.
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      09-26-2012, 09:07 PM   #25
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Why is this such a big deal for all of us stock turbo guys? The stock fuel system seems to be doing a pretty fantastic job with flashed dme and up to 60% e85.

Not saying it won't be helpful but what are the expected gains? How much more boost or advance can be run with 50% e85 vs 100%?
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      09-26-2012, 09:10 PM   #26
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So the high pressure pump has the capabilities to flow enough fuel, but its the lpfp that can't keep up? Is the hpfp able to just multiply what the lpfp can provide? In a turbo system with port injection, it is typical to get an adjustable pressure regulator and turn up the fuel pressure to allow more fuel volume through the injector in a fixed amount of time. So if you get a higher pressure lpfp in the n54, the hpfp will be able to take that excess pressure and multiply it, providing additional pressure to the injectors, or is the lpfp just not able to keep up with the volume demands? Are people hitting limits with respect to stock fuel pressure at the injector and injector pulse width (apparently they are)?

I guess what I am asking is what is the advantage to an upgraded lpfp? More pressure, more volume? How does this affect the hpfp and the volume of fuel through the injector in a fixed amount of time?

I'm not questioning the necessity of an upgraded lpfp, I'm just trying to learn about the limitations of the stock system.
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      09-26-2012, 09:27 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ajm8127
So the high pressure pump has the capabilities to flow enough fuel, but its the lpfp that can't keep up? Is the hpfp able to just multiply what the lpfp can provide? In a turbo system with port injection, it is typical to get an adjustable pressure regulator and turn up the fuel pressure to allow more fuel volume through the injector in a fixed amount of time. So if you get a higher pressure lpfp in the n54, the hpfp will be able to take that excess pressure and multiply it, providing additional pressure to the injectors, or is the lpfp just not able to keep up with the volume demands? Are people hitting limits with respect to stock fuel pressure at the injector and injector pulse width (apparently they are)?

I guess what I am asking is what is the advantage to an upgraded lpfp? More pressure, more volume? How does this affect the hpfp and the volume of fuel through the injector in a fixed amount of time?

I'm not questioning the necessity of an upgraded lpfp, I'm just trying to learn about the limitations of the stock system.
LPFP aims to maintain 72psi in the low pressure side leading to the HPFP. DME will either raise HPFP pressure or increase injector duty cycle/Injector pulse width to increase fuel volume. PROcede and JB4 will also bias the actual fuel pressure to get the DME to run higher than actual fuel pressure - "Open Loop" fueling.

On logs of cars running high levels of ethanol you can see the commanded pressure level of 72psi for the LPFP, but watch the actual pressure level drop drastically during peak torque/BSFC. This indicates the LPFP simply cannot provide the volume required to maintain requested pressure. This results in lower than requested HPFP pressures and the engine can begin to lean out.
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      09-26-2012, 09:58 PM   #28
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Love the poll results so far.
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      09-26-2012, 10:12 PM   #29
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LPFP is easy to change out so this will be just simply swapping out the old unit?
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      09-26-2012, 10:25 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
LPFP aims to maintain 72psi in the low pressure side leading to the HPFP. DME will either raise HPFP pressure or increase injector duty cycle/Injector pulse width to increase fuel volume. PROcede and JB4 will also bias the actual fuel pressure to get the DME to run higher than actual fuel pressure - "Open Loop" fueling.

On logs of cars running high levels of ethanol you can see the commanded pressure level of 72psi for the LPFP, but watch the actual pressure level drop drastically during peak torque/BSFC. This indicates the LPFP simply cannot provide the volume required to maintain requested pressure. This results in lower than requested HPFP pressures and the engine can begin to lean out.
Good information, thanks.
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      09-27-2012, 04:04 AM   #31
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maybe an inline solution? would be maybe easiest to install.
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      09-27-2012, 05:05 AM   #32
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Just curious, who has seen lean conditions on stock turbos with the necessary mods?
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      09-27-2012, 06:00 AM   #33
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and bring on the home flashing for more fuel feature soon. thanks.
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      09-27-2012, 06:47 AM   #34
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I assume this is why my logs show requested pressure of 72.48 yet I start at around 61 and end a third gear pull in the low 30's?
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      09-27-2012, 06:52 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JStang View Post
I assume this is why my logs show requested pressure of 72.48 yet I start at around 61 and end a third gear pull in the low 30's?
yep E50 right?
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      09-27-2012, 06:56 AM   #36
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I bet its a kenne bell boost-a-pump rebranded...
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      09-27-2012, 06:57 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
yep E50 right?
OTS E30 maps for now.
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      09-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #38
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I bet its a kenne bell boost-a-pump rebranded...
i seriously hope not...
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      09-27-2012, 07:08 AM   #39
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Quote:
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OTS E30 maps for now.
but trims are fine right?
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      09-27-2012, 07:18 AM   #40
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Quote:
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but trims are fine right?
LTFT's on Bank 1 peak at 7.81, LTFT's on Bank 2 peak at 9.38. STFT's on Bank 1 range from 12.44 to -14.81 and STFT's on Bank 2 range from 11.21 to -10.69.

Whether or not these are "fine" I do not know but I do know that they aren't close to Cobb's +/- 34.
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      09-27-2012, 07:41 AM   #41
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Quote:
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LTFT's on Bank 1 peak at 7.81, LTFT's on Bank 2 peak at 9.38. STFT's on Bank 1 range from 12.44 to -14.81 and STFT's on Bank 2 range from 11.21 to -10.69.

Whether or not these are "fine" I do not know but I do know that they aren't close to Cobb's +/- 34.
those are fine . not fine is when they max 34% and you lean out. this happen especially after 6k.
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      09-27-2012, 07:55 AM   #42
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      09-27-2012, 08:00 AM   #43
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Boost-a-pump just drives up voltage, Shiv makes it sound like a new pump. This would be ideal to drop in a higher volume pump. Remember as well a higher output pump also has to work less to maintain the pressuse on a stock car. There are many things that I see will be needed on our cars to push the envelope that Shiv has already broken many times. I would still love to see a fuel injection option on top of the DI setup. I would like this to be on all the time to help with the carbon issue in a low low amounts. Im talking 5% duty cycle and trim the DI setup to maintain 0 fuel trims. Then as the boost comes on instead of ramping up the DI, use these to add more fuel. Let the DI setup do what it does best and help with cooling and atomization, let the old school injectors do what they do best and FLOW!
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      09-27-2012, 08:34 AM   #44
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Quote:
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Just curious, who has seen lean conditions on stock turbos with the necessary mods?
DFV2 was having a serious lean out when he tried running 100% E85 FBO no meth. It seems a brand new LPFP might be able to support 100% E85 on stock turbos, but its really pushing the limits. Some headroom would be nice..
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