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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Log Attached - Cobb - Oscillation - Suttering - 4th Gear - Low Rpm - Full Boost



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      10-02-2012, 10:44 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
It's pretty easy to correct what's going on, but it takes a few steps. If you would like to PM me i can walk you through it or i can work with you on a map to resolve it. I don't mind making an oscillation fix map for you, but i prefer to teach someone. The old "teach a man to fish" adage.


Ohh and the $200 spent on a PTF map would be VERY well spent
PM Sent - Thanks in advance!
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      10-02-2012, 10:55 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by enrita View Post
I made a guide but its in italian LOL.
Need to translate it. You can cure it with probably 5-6 map revision but for 100% results and more powa ptf is the way to go. Awesome guys !
I wish I spoke Italian! Do you have a link to the guide and I'll use Google to translate? I do want to learn.

Ænema was nice enough to offer assistance and I pm'd him so hopefully I can make some progress with his assistance. I'll be sure to post updates so the community can benefit from this knowledge. Depending how far we get i may or may not opt to get an etune.
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      10-02-2012, 03:35 PM   #25
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mine is basically fixed after 7 revisions :-) E50 map

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      10-02-2012, 07:27 PM   #26
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Corrections made to WGDC base

With Ænema's help I was taught how to adjust my WGDC Base. Before I install it and test it out on the road just want to make sure I didn't screw up. I mostly focused on Boost Mean vs. Requested Boost and were i saw boost mean overshoot requested boost I reduced the closest corresponding value in the WGDC Base table by 5% unless indicated differently below.

There was one spot at around 280 MAF and 2.167 setpoint where I saw some throttle closures evidenced by TPS Act% going under 80.98 accompanied with boost mean overshooting requested boost as well so I reduced this value by 7.5%

At around 240 MAF and 2.073% setpoint there were more severe discrepancies between boost mean and boost requested so I also reduced this value by 7.5%

Attached are a graph of my before log and the an excel of the corresponding data as well as a screen shot of ATR AFTER the edits were made.

How did I do?
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      10-02-2012, 07:56 PM   #27
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Looks good man, keep in mind that the first attempt probably won't fix it and it's going to be "rinse and repeat" process. Also, it's a good idea to reduce the values in the immediately surrounding cells. The WG adder tables should take up the slack if you remove a touch too much so don't be too hesistant to reduce the base table values(don't go crazy, of coarse.)
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      10-02-2012, 08:45 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Looks good man, keep in mind that the first attempt probably won't fix it and it's going to be "rinse and repeat" process. Also, it's a good idea to reduce the values in the immediately surrounding cells. The WG adder tables should take up the slack if you remove a touch too much so don't be too hesistant to reduce the base table values(don't go crazy, of coarse.)

Cool - thanks for the confirmation. Now I totally understand the methodology. I'm gonna take her out for a spin and do some more logging and tweaking. I'll keep the thread updated.
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      10-02-2012, 09:25 PM   #29
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haha well if your mod addicted like I was at one point, well almost a year ago, just wait to see how much different your beast is going to sound with a set of catless downpipes, intercooler and some sort of exhaust set up. No need to buy an exhaust because its honestly a waist of money, in my personal opinion. Just cut the secondary cats or buy a mid section exhaust and leave the OEM style muffler on, if you want the "quiet" car ( I recommend changing the tips to a 3.5" or a 4.0"). If you want it to be louder I suggest cutting the OEM muffler off as well as secondary cats and replace the secondarys with a set of vibrant resonators ( I hear the ultra quiet ones sound very good and takes the rasp away). They make different kinds but this takes ALOT of the drone away and with catless downpipes, secondary cat delete, vibrant resonators, with straight pipes all the way back, sounds pretty damn good. I would have went this route but I was an idiot and didnt know much when I started this project

so just some friendly advice and our cars, well N54's in general or any forced induction car loves the least back pressure possible.. Less back pressure = more flow, and more flow means more air from your CAI to spin those snails and make alot of BOOST
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      10-02-2012, 10:20 PM   #30
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haha well if your mod addicted like I was at one point, well almost a year ago, just wait to see how much different your beast is going to sound with a set of catless downpipes, intercooler and some sort of exhaust set up. No need to buy an exhaust because its honestly a waist of money, in my personal opinion. Just cut the secondary cats or buy a mid section exhaust and leave the OEM style muffler on, if you want the "quiet" car ( I recommend changing the tips to a 3.5" or a 4.0"). If you want it to be louder I suggest cutting the OEM muffler off as well as secondary cats and replace the secondarys with a set of vibrant resonators ( I hear the ultra quiet ones sound very good and takes the rasp away). They make different kinds but this takes ALOT of the drone away and with catless downpipes, secondary cat delete, vibrant resonators, with straight pipes all the way back, sounds pretty damn good. I would have went this route but I was an idiot and didnt know much when I started this project

so just some friendly advice and our cars, well N54's in general or any forced induction car loves the least back pressure possible.. Less back pressure = more flow, and more flow means more air from your CAI to spin those snails and make alot of BOOST

LOL....that's dangling a crack rock in front of a crack addict! Trust me dude, I'm tempted. I'm just being a pussy cause I have 3 years left on CPO and I'd like to keep it in place should I need it. I know I'm already taking a small risk with the Cobb and I'll prob play it safe a throw my stock air box if I have to take a trip to the dealer. Intercooler is very tempting as that is something that's easy to swamp in and out. Down pipes might be pushing but hey talk to me in a month and I'll prob be craving more power. This is a big step up from my previous car which was a bone stock 350Z
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      10-02-2012, 10:21 PM   #31
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Logs after my first round of WGDC tweaks

A little better but not quite there yet. See attached.
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      10-02-2012, 10:28 PM   #32
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2nd Revision - Did I make it worse??

Seeing more oscillations in the lower RPM range. That can't be good. Was I too aggressive on my tweaks? Did i go overboard in editing adjacent cells? Please help!
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      10-02-2012, 11:50 PM   #33
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Those oscillations are probably best resolved/caused but the PID tables in the WGDC tables. Unfortunately, I haven't had any oscillations myself(and in turn haven't had to work on a "fix" for it) so I don't want to lead you wrong here. I'm fairly sure the P factor is the culprit here but I don't want to say for sure. I think you should get in touch with the user "joshboody", I know he has had to work on this problem and I believe he has a good fix for it.

EDIT: I went through ATR and I'm thinking if it were me the steps I would take would be: to log Boost error P factor and where the boost oscillations are occuring I would reduce the value in those cells in the WGDC P factor table. I would be fairly aggressive(maybe 25% or so each time.)

However, that's just me thinking out loud and I'm not guaranteeing that will fix the oscillations.

Last edited by Ænema; 10-03-2012 at 12:10 AM.
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      10-03-2012, 01:11 AM   #34
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maybe you could just take the stage 1+ map and basically modify it by running the same load target and timing as stage 1 ?
or copy all WGDC table from stage 1 + and port them to stage 1?
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      10-03-2012, 07:33 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enrita View Post
maybe you could just take the stage 1+ map and basically modify it by running the same load target and timing as stage 1 ?
or copy all WGDC table from stage 1 + and port them to stage 1?
That's not a bad idea being that stage 1+ is 4.02 with oscillation fixes....something to think about
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      10-03-2012, 07:34 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ænema View Post
Those oscillations are probably best resolved/caused but the PID tables in the WGDC tables. Unfortunately, I haven't had any oscillations myself(and in turn haven't had to work on a "fix" for it) so I don't want to lead you wrong here. I'm fairly sure the P factor is the culprit here but I don't want to say for sure. I think you should get in touch with the user "joshboody", I know he has had to work on this problem and I believe he has a good fix for it.

EDIT: I went through ATR and I'm thinking if it were me the steps I would take would be: to log Boost error P factor and where the boost oscillations are occuring I would reduce the value in those cells in the WGDC P factor table. I would be fairly aggressive(maybe 25% or so each time.)

However, that's just me thinking out loud and I'm not guaranteeing that will fix the oscillations.
That's pointing me in the right direction....I'll contact "joshbody" and see if he can give me some more input as well
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      10-03-2012, 08:05 AM   #37
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That's not a bad idea being that stage 1+ is 4.02 with oscillation fixes....something to think about
I would recommend against using the V402 Stage 1+ WGDC tables, they are meant for much higher boost. Like Aenema said, the P-factor table typically causes the oscillations when it is too aggressive, try reducing the values and see what happens.

From what i understand, P-Factor is given "authority" to correct underboost or overboost conditions. So depending on how aggressive the factor is, it can slingshot up and down which is why you get the oscillations.
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      10-03-2012, 09:03 AM   #38
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I would recommend against using the V402 Stage 1+ WGDC tables, they are meant for much higher boost. Like Aenema said, the P-factor table typically causes the oscillations when it is too aggressive, try reducing the values and see what happens.

From what i understand, P-Factor is given "authority" to correct underboost or overboost conditions. So depending on how aggressive the factor is, it can slingshot up and down which is why you get the oscillations.

Thanks for another point of view
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      10-03-2012, 09:06 AM   #39
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Pro Tuning Freaks - Here I come!

Everyone has been great and really helpful. I have learned a lot but the learning curve is pretty steep and seems like there is no one best way or a quick generic fix as everyone's hardware and conditions are slightly different.

For $200 buck pro tuning freaks makes a lot of sense. I shouldn't be owning a bimmer if I can't part with $200. That should smooth out the oscillations and if I pick up a little bit of safe power in the process that's even better. I'm gong to purchase an e-tune and I'll let everyone know how it goes!
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      10-03-2012, 09:37 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Fully_Bolted View Post
I would recommend against using the V402 Stage 1+ WGDC tables, they are meant for much higher boost. Like Aenema said, the P-factor table typically causes the oscillations when it is too aggressive, try reducing the values and see what happens.

From what i understand, P-Factor is given "authority" to correct underboost or overboost conditions. So depending on how aggressive the factor is, it can slingshot up and down which is why you get the oscillations.
What i'm thinking is happening is that after working on the overshoots the boost overshoot becomes small enough that the P tables tries to correct it by itself, but over-corrects so it underboosts and then puts WGDC back in and then over-corrects again and overboosts.

So, in theory, if one was to just continue the process of reducing the WGDC base table you will eliminate the oscillations by eliminating the need for the P table to intervine.

Any thoughts?
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      10-03-2012, 09:43 AM   #41
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Everyone has been great and really helpful. I have learned a lot but the learning curve is pretty steep and seems like there is no one best way or a quick generic fix as everyone's hardware and conditions are slightly different.

For $200 buck pro tuning freaks makes a lot of sense. I shouldn't be owning a bimmer if I can't part with $200. That should smooth out the oscillations and if I pick up a little bit of safe power in the process that's even better. I'm gong to purchase an e-tune and I'll let everyone know how it goes!
Yeah, ATR is definitely a "Process." I find it fun and interesting and try to help with it when i can. Sorry i can't give you an easy, definite fix here

PTF are great guys and i have seen a few datalogs of their maps and they look absolutely beautiful.
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      10-03-2012, 10:47 AM   #42
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Hey, I looked over things briefly and have a suspicion. In one of your revised maps I noticed you edited the lower MAF cells... these should NOT need adjusting. I think you may have mistakenly referenced g/s MAF in the log to kgh in ATR. Adjust ATR to g/s in display options, if this was your mistake and start over.

The cells you will be editing are only really a handful around 170+ g/s at your setpoints. Only adjust under WOT fully spooled at this time... you can move to part/spool later.

For PID, I think it would be good to start a thread on this. Generally, for p-factor, you'd want larger values for +error and lower for -error... its better to be short of your target. It would be great to have some engineering type input here.

NOTE: I do run ATR, but I control boost with procede (along with other things), so I only have limited first hand experience. I just try and help because I want more people making their own adjustments... its not so hard when you have a pool of people gathering experience together. There's not that many adjustments you can make really.
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      10-03-2012, 11:08 AM   #43
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Quote:
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Yeah, ATR is definitely a "Process." I find it fun and interesting and try to help with it when i can. Sorry i can't give you an easy, definite fix here

PTF are great guys and i have seen a few datalogs of their maps and they look absolutely beautiful.
Hey man,

I'm interested in learning how to dial in boost, dial out overshoots... I don't have them anymore with my custom tune but would like to know how to do it.

Would you mind posting a paragraph explaining what to do?
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      10-03-2012, 12:45 PM   #44
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Hey man,

I'm interested in learning how to dial in boost, dial out overshoots... I don't have them anymore with my custom tune but would like to know how to do it.

Would you mind posting a paragraph explaining what to do?
Basically, you log "Boost setpoint factor" and "MAF req(WGDC)" and then adjust the WGDC base table in the corresponding cells where the overshoots/undershoots occur. For over boosting i like to make adjustments(reductions) by a factor of 5-10%. For under boosts I go by a smaller value(2-5%) because as you increase the value the percentage increase grows each time. Increasing the WGDC adder table also works on under boost, but I kind of like using the base table.

My stock turbos are pretty healthy and not very picky so I haven't had to make a lot of changes. I have a set of TD04s on the way, when they get installed I have a felling I'm going to be spending a lot time in the WGDC tables haha
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