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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > All-Wheel-Drive (Xi / xDrive) Talk > LSD on xDrive



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      10-03-2012, 01:39 PM   #1
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LSD on xDrive

Anyone put an lsd on a xdrive car?
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      10-04-2012, 10:09 AM   #2
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I think I saw one, but I don't rembember his name. Hopefully he will show up.
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      10-05-2012, 12:01 PM   #3
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I've got one. With my sticky tires and awd it's really not that different though. This car doesn't like to slide, and even in the rain without the LSD I could floor the gas with fbo + meth + e85 and not have any traction loss problems. May be different case with a manual as there is more drivetrain shock that could cause traction loss but on my automatic it's not that noticeable an upgrade. Will post a detailed review once we get some snow, as I think that's when it'll really show its true colors.
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Last edited by stratplaya06; 10-05-2012 at 12:20 PM.
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      10-05-2012, 02:40 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
I've got one. With my sticky tires and awd it's really not that different though. This car doesn't like to slide, and even in the rain without the LSD I could floor the gas with fbo + meth + e85 and not have any traction loss problems. May be different case with a manual as there is more drivetrain shock that could cause traction loss but on my automatic it's not that noticeable an upgrade. Will post a detailed review once we get some snow, as I think that's when it'll really show its true colors.
Do you have only the rear LSD installed?

I am looking into a rear LSD for the purposes of track, did you notice any improvement when you tracked? (By your picture it looks like you autocross)
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      10-05-2012, 03:25 PM   #5
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Yes, I have a rear quaife. I am unaware of any front LSD options available.

I have only autocrossed once after installing the LSD on the car, and while it may have allowed me to power through understeer a bit better, the difference was not immense. I have 275 tires all around right now, but will be switching to 255 for my next set due to the moderate rub that has destroyed my front fender liners. This is a considerable factor given the huge reduction in push the car has with very wide front rubber.

I think the difference will be much more noticeable with narrow rubber, and with my winter 225 pilot alpins I am very excited to do some snow donuts in the car to experience the change.
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      11-11-2012, 10:20 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
Yes, I have a rear quaife. I am unaware of any front LSD options available.

I have only autocrossed once after installing the LSD on the car, and while it may have allowed me to power through understeer a bit better, the difference was not immense. I have 275 tires all around right now, but will be switching to 255 for my next set due to the moderate rub that has destroyed my front fender liners. This is a considerable factor given the huge reduction in push the car has with very wide front rubber.

I think the difference will be much more noticeable with narrow rubber, and with my winter 225 pilot alpins I am very excited to do some snow donuts in the car to experience the change.
any updates?
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      11-12-2012, 05:20 PM   #7
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Lol now that my transfer case motor died (again...) the lsd makes the car much more controllable (when the motor goes so do all electronic nannies). It slides beautifully and feels great on the 225 pilot alpins. I would do anything for a controllable lockup of the transfer case so that I can drive it in rwd mode all the time and switch to awd when the white stuff comes down.

When the motor is working the car behaves much like it did before, always cutting power away from the back and sending it front to correct the slide that I try and induce. It's too bad the awd system on these cars is so fun-prohibitive.
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      11-12-2012, 06:01 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
Lol now that my transfer case motor died (again...) the lsd makes the car much more controllable (when the motor goes so do all electronic nannies). It slides beautifully and feels great on the 225 pilot alpins. I would do anything for a controllable lockup of the transfer case so that I can drive it in rwd mode all the time and switch to awd when the white stuff comes down.

When the motor is working the car behaves much like it did before, always cutting power away from the back and sending it front to correct the slide that I try and induce. It's too bad the awd system on these cars is so fun-prohibitive.
did you fit a 335i lsd on your xi? what keeps on causing for your transfer case to die?
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      11-12-2012, 10:24 PM   #9
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Lol the adjuster motor went first at 40k, and when I looked at dealership prices to do the job (~$900) I decided to look for the motors on ebay. Just the motors were around $250 and I managed to find an entire tcase with the motor out of a wrecked 328xi for $220. I had it shipped to my house and salvaged the motor off of it figuring that I would eventually need the tcase to be replaced because I was FBO+meth+e85. My mechanic is installing my tcase tomorrow and that should solve the problem i've been having with ABS/EBV/4X4/DSC malfunctions (and take some of the clunk out of the drivetrain). I also bought an adjuster motor I found on car-part.com that has 30k miles on it for $150 should that need to be replaced too. Dealership prices for these parts are scary and I don't mind experimenting with salvage parts.

EDIT: should mention, the reason the tcase is being replaced is because when I pulled into my spot at work the other day the car came to an abrupt hault, then wouldn't move. I had to give it a lot of gas to get it to go, and then it was clear something was wrong in the drivetrain. Fortunately these parts that break aren't that expensive. I hope to find a shop that would want my broken tcase to help develop strengthened units suitable for single turbo applications.
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      11-13-2012, 12:39 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
Lol the adjuster motor went first at 40k, and when I looked at dealership prices to do the job (~$900) I decided to look for the motors on ebay. Just the motors were around $250 and I managed to find an entire tcase with the motor out of a wrecked 328xi for $220. I had it shipped to my house and salvaged the motor off of it figuring that I would eventually need the tcase to be replaced because I was FBO+meth+e85. My mechanic is installing my tcase tomorrow and that should solve the problem i've been having with ABS/EBV/4X4/DSC malfunctions (and take some of the clunk out of the drivetrain). I also bought an adjuster motor I found on car-part.com that has 30k miles on it for $150 should that need to be replaced too. Dealership prices for these parts are scary and I don't mind experimenting with salvage parts.

EDIT: should mention, the reason the tcase is being replaced is because when I pulled into my spot at work the other day the car came to an abrupt hault, then wouldn't move. I had to give it a lot of gas to get it to go, and then it was clear something was wrong in the drivetrain. Fortunately these parts that break aren't that expensive. I hope to find a shop that would want my broken tcase to help develop strengthened units suitable for single turbo applications.
Hmmm thats strange i have been running around FBO and i never had a problem. The only problem i had was when i installed the performance steering wheel, as i told you before. I need to meet up with you and talk about the possibilities of the lsd and performance upgrades. Which shop are you taking your car too?
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      11-13-2012, 07:53 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
Yes, I have a rear quaife. I am unaware of any front LSD options available.

I have only autocrossed once after installing the LSD on the car, and while it may have allowed me to power through understeer a bit better, the difference was not immense. I have 275 tires all around right now, but will be switching to 255 for my next set due to the moderate rub that has destroyed my front fender liners. This is a considerable factor given the huge reduction in push the car has with very wide front rubber.

I think the difference will be much more noticeable with narrow rubber, and with my winter 225 pilot alpins I am very excited to do some snow donuts in the car to experience the change.
This kinds of makes sense. On an Xi a whole lot less (as much as half) TQ goes to the rears, so you'd expect the LSD to not be as noticeable as on a RWD car.
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      11-13-2012, 10:53 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
I hope to find a shop that would want my broken tcase to help develop strengthened units suitable for single turbo applications.
There's a shop in Colorado looking for broken ones to investigate. They already bought a couple but might be interested in one more...

http://www.jackstransmissions.com/

They are having trouble with their email provider thinking some messages are spam so you might have to call.
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      11-13-2012, 11:36 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
Lol the adjuster motor went first at 40k, and when I looked at dealership prices to do the job (~$900) I decided to look for the motors on ebay. Just the motors were around $250 and I managed to find an entire tcase with the motor out of a wrecked 328xi for $220. I had it shipped to my house and salvaged the motor off of it figuring that I would eventually need the tcase to be replaced because I was FBO+meth+e85. My mechanic is installing my tcase tomorrow and that should solve the problem i've been having with ABS/EBV/4X4/DSC malfunctions (and take some of the clunk out of the drivetrain). I also bought an adjuster motor I found on car-part.com that has 30k miles on it for $150 should that need to be replaced too. Dealership prices for these parts are scary and I don't mind experimenting with salvage parts.

EDIT: should mention, the reason the tcase is being replaced is because when I pulled into my spot at work the other day the car came to an abrupt hault, then wouldn't move. I had to give it a lot of gas to get it to go, and then it was clear something was wrong in the drivetrain. Fortunately these parts that break aren't that expensive. I hope to find a shop that would want my broken tcase to help develop strengthened units suitable for single turbo applications.
When you say you are installing a tcase, are you talking about installing the Tcase you got from the 328? I don't think the tcases are the same for 328 and 335?
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      11-16-2012, 10:05 PM   #14
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When you say you are installing a tcase, are you talking about installing the Tcase you got from the 328? I don't think the tcases are the same for 328 and 335?
All e9x 3 series/e6x 5 series share the same ATC 300 transfer case

MI6 - My car is at s2 dynamics in rockville.

In response to transfer case reliability: I have had my car with FBO+Meth at the skidpad at summit about 5 times (it really didn't like this) and I am in general very hard on the drivetrain so I'm not surprised the tcase went. I also ran staggered setup (235/35 275/30) for one season although it is hardly a stagger as the tires are the same diameter down to .1". I also had 275 supersports all around for two seasons which I believe may have been a bit too much grip for these power levels (given the parts were designed for 225 tires with no more than 300hp). I think it's worth mentioning that I changed the fluid at 45k when some drivetrain binding started to come about. I would recommend changing it every 30k to be on the safe side, as I think that once the friction modifiers in the fluid start to break down the fluid goes south quick.
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      11-18-2012, 06:54 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stratplaya06 View Post
All e9x 3 series/e6x 5 series share the same ATC 300 transfer case

MI6 - My car is at s2 dynamics in rockville.

In response to transfer case reliability: I have had my car with FBO+Meth at the skidpad at summit about 5 times (it really didn't like this) and I am in general very hard on the drivetrain so I'm not surprised the tcase went. I also ran staggered setup (235/35 275/30) for one season although it is hardly a stagger as the tires are the same diameter down to .1". I also had 275 supersports all around for two seasons which I believe may have been a bit too much grip for these power levels (given the parts were designed for 225 tires with no more than 300hp). I think it's worth mentioning that I changed the fluid at 45k when some drivetrain binding started to come about. I would recommend changing it every 30k to be on the safe side, as I think that once the friction modifiers in the fluid start to break down the fluid goes south quick.
No way you go to pats.... I'm always getting stuff done at this shop, tell him Allen says what's up
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      01-11-2016, 07:00 PM   #16
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That being said ; should we have (AWD cars) an LSD for better handling when DTC is fully closed ?
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      01-14-2016, 12:30 PM   #17
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Bump !
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      01-15-2016, 06:07 PM   #18
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Late last year I dove deep into LSDs on xDrive, and didn't come up with much information.

I'll have first hand experience to share soon enough (but not soon). My Performance Gearing 3.91 final drive Salisbury LSD is scheduled for delivery "soon". I use the car on the track in summer, and deep in the mountains during winter. Track season is in hibernation for the next several months, but I'll have feedback on low / no friction driving conditions.

I expect but can't confirm that the benefits of an LSD will be more noticeable with nanny's turned off. At the same time my expectations are for more than a subtle improvement, especially on tight low-speed hairpins like those found here at Pacific Raceways and The Ridge.

Will share feedback after installation and mileage but don't hold your breath. Will be a month or so.
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      01-15-2016, 08:02 PM   #19
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Quote:
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Late last year I dove deep into LSDs on xDrive, and didn't come up with much information.

I'll have first hand experience to share soon enough (but not soon). My Performance Gearing 3.91 final drive Salisbury LSD is scheduled for delivery "soon". I use the car on the track in summer, and deep in the mountains during winter. Track season is in hibernation for the next several months, but I'll have feedback on low / no friction driving conditions.

I expect but can't confirm that the benefits of an LSD will be more noticeable with nanny's turned off. At the same time my expectations are for more than a subtle improvement, especially on tight low-speed hairpins like those found here at Pacific Raceways and The Ridge.

Will share feedback after installation and mileage but don't hold your breath. Will be a month or so.
Thank you very much for your detailed answer. Let's say this is our initial conference. I am looking forward to seeing your comments here when you are avaliable. Thanks again.
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      01-17-2016, 06:20 PM   #20
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What I know about LSD's would fill a thimble but in my research and thinking about using an LSD with the XDrive system is that the advantage for me is twofold:

First, using any type of limited slip will either eliminate or reduce the need for the traction control to engage the brakes to optimize traction except possibly in the most extreme cases under high power or unstable conditions. To me, this is the proper way to get power to the ground (without using the braking system to reduce/eliminate wheel spin to optimize traction). Ultimately, we're trying to make the car as fast and smooth as possible. Applying the brakes while the wheels are under load is an great way to solve the problem of not having a limited slip, but seems far from ideal. A secondary benefit of not engaging the traction control system would be that your braking system (at least the rears) would have less stress and wear, particularly at the track !

Secondly, if using a clutch type (Salisbury) the LSD can be built either 1.5 or 2 meaning that on deceleration, the clutch packs engage both wheels to provide engine braking and in my experience, tend to stabilize the chassis, most particularly when the chassis is unsettled (off camber, etc).

Also, I read somewhere that Porsche uses LSDs in their AWD systems.

I would love to hear others opinions and experiences as I plan to get a Dan Fitzgerald built unit (I have one in my E36 M3 and it is awesome).
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      01-23-2016, 03:55 AM   #21
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I've been looking at WaveTrac LSDs for a potential install in my 335xi but at around $2600 I too would like a little more feedback pertaining to the performance and handling after install. Completely disabling the AWD (fuse, blown transfer case motor, steering angle issues, etc.) would show massive improvement as the car would be true RWD and an open diff can't hold a candle to the performance of an LSD (as I found out last winter when my car decided to go full RWD on me...)
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      01-23-2016, 01:21 PM   #22
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I've been looking at WaveTrac LSDs for a potential install in my 335xi but at around $2600 I too would like a little more feedback pertaining to the performance and handling after install. Completely disabling the AWD (fuse, blown transfer case motor, steering angle issues, etc.) would show massive improvement as the car would be true RWD and an open diff can't hold a candle to the performance of an LSD (as I found out last winter when my car decided to go full RWD on me...)
Not sure why it would be a "massive improvement" to go rear wheel drive only.

The only negative I understand is the weight penalty of the XDrive. There is obviously no limit on how far you go modifying the car (apparently you can't lower the car too low in the front). There is no other reason other than weight that will prevent you from going around a track faster than a RWD if the car is properly setup (you may not be interested in going around a track…). Some of the fastest production sports cars in the world are AWD.

My theory is that an LSD would yield great benefits at the upper limits of the car but probably less so for a daily driver.

If you were to go rear wheel drive, I think the only way to see real benefit with this platform is to remove the XDrive system to achieve the weight reduction and even then , you'll probably have to address the suspension…

But I also have to say, I hear there are plenty of cars on the track that do quite well with an open diff, although could they do better ? Probably. The faster you go, the more benefits you will experience. BTW, I love the XDrive, particularly in high speed turns and in weather. I have no plans to track the car.
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