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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90/E92/E93 Marketplace (For Sale / Trade / Wanted) > Vendor Comments/Review/Feedback Forum > Unethical Vendor - BMS (Burger Motorsports bad review)



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      10-16-2012, 04:02 PM   #133
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JetBlackE46 - I think anyone with a shroud of impartiality can see what went on here. I commend you for coming on here and making this public. You made the right call.

To those of you diehard BMS supporters, it's really time you rub your eyes and see the light. BMS has made a business of copying other companies ideas and spreading fallacies about the original innovator's product. There is an endemic pattern that has happened time and time again. I encourage those you have made misinformed posts in this thread to do a little searching and learn more. Support innovation, it's how we as a community are going to move forward.

E90post is a place where good-sense prevails. The only divisions in this community are created by individuals who refuse to abide by the tenants of common-sense and civility.
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      10-16-2012, 04:23 PM   #134
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If your product is not patented it dosen't matter. BMS has great customer service and products, I think this thread is bashing bms more then it should. yes taking someone else's pictures isn't cool, but who cares if its not patented thats your own fault for letting it happen. Terry is extremely helpful through email and ships very quick.. I am no diehard bms fan just vouching for good products and service!

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      10-16-2012, 04:44 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by e90328i View Post
If your product is not patented it dosen't matter. BMS has great customer service and products, I think this thread is bashing bms more then it should. yes taking someone else's pictures isn't cool, but who cares if its not patented thats your own fault for letting it happen. Terry is extremely helpful through email and ships very quick.. I am no diehard bms fan just vouching for good products and service!
I think you're completely missing the point. Taking a legalistic approach to this issue is just an excuse for bad behavior. Secondly, we're not discussing whether Terry is helpful or how quickly they ship. It's irrelevant to the issue at hand.

Anyway, I think I've made my point clearly enough. I'm leaving this thread.
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      10-16-2012, 04:54 PM   #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
JetBlackE46 - I think anyone with a shroud of impartiality can see what went on here. I commend you for coming on here and making this public. You made the right call.

To those of you diehard BMS supporters, it's really time you rub your eyes and see the light. BMS has made a business of copying other companies ideas and spreading fallacies about the original innovator's product. There is an endemic pattern that has happened time and time again. I encourage those you have made misinformed posts in this thread to do a little searching and learn more. Support innovation, it's how we as a community are going to move forward.

E90post is a place where good-sense prevails. The only divisions in this community are created by individuals who refuse to abide by the tenants of common-sense and civility.

So you're saying that when a company comes out with a product that costs 50$ to make and sells it for 800$+ because of the "BMW" tax. Another company see's that they can make it for the same amount but only charge 400$, they shouldn't do that because they would be "copying" another product?

We live in a free economy, if someone else can make the same quality product at half the price then it gets done. Happens everywhere.
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      10-16-2012, 06:27 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by e90328i View Post
If your product is not patented it dosen't matter. BMS has great customer service and products, I think this thread is bashing bms more then it should. yes taking someone else's pictures isn't cool, but who cares if its not patented thats your own fault for letting it happen. Terry is extremely helpful through email and ships very quick.. I am no diehard bms fan just vouching for good products and service!
WHAT???!!!!
1) you have NO clue what Patent means
2) Why is that Terry banned here for years and not welcome on these boards?
3) I read that more than 50% of the comments actually believe that his service is terrible and are not surprised by his action described in this thread.

BMS deserves to go down...over a few $1000s!!!

I believe the mods should ban the word BMS on these forums
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      10-16-2012, 09:42 PM   #138
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Just because I first went with BMS clutch stop I just ordered yours for the sake of it. Will see difference between rubber and metal washer when I receive it !
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      10-16-2012, 10:31 PM   #139
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Guys you have to slow down here, you are making a big deal over a ridiculous amount of money. You are all complaining about BMS copying products. If they do, it is like any business in the world, and if they make the product better and cheaper they win the business. Like any company.
Reading most of your posts it looks like you would buy a Chevy if they were the first company to invent cars? And if BMW would have started to make cars later one, you would say BMW stole the idea from Chevy?, and say "oh I will never buy BMW then"...
It is a very basic example but it is the reality, Guys, open your eyes, it's the business world...
If BMS used the pictures from the OP, it is not acceptable, but they might have thought it wasn't a big deal as I don't think BMS makes a lot of money on it, after paying a warehouse and employees... Most of the people here running their own business probably understand, for those still at school, you will later.

You guys probably don't realize how hard it is to build a business and a brand. BMS is selling great products for a fraction of the price most of the time. Instead of bashing them like you all do on this thread, try to run your own company and do like Terry does, try to answer emails within two hours, even when the questions are silly, any days of the week...

Personally I've had only great experiences with BMS, and I haven't seen many companies having a customer support like the have. My JB4 had an issue one day, I overnighted it to BMS, they changed what was wrong with it and had it the next day. Free of charge, and I bought mine used... Who does that?

OP I understand your frustration and it is true that BMS could be in touch with you and apologize, or maybe send you a pair of new DPs for the inconvenience. But for the other guys on this forum, please take it easy on a company doing everything they can for us, BMW enthusiasts...
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      10-17-2012, 05:28 AM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gfabry View Post
Guys you have to slow down here, you are making a big deal over a ridiculous amount of money. You are all complaining about BMS copying products. If they do, it is like any business in the world, and if they make the product better and cheaper they win the business. Like any company.
Reading most of your posts it looks like you would buy a Chevy if they were the first company to invent cars? And if BMW would have started to make cars later one, you would say BMW stole the idea from Chevy?, and say "oh I will never buy BMW then"...
It is a very basic example but it is the reality, Guys, open your eyes, it's the business world...
If BMS used the pictures from the OP, it is not acceptable, but they might have thought it wasn't a big deal as I don't think BMS makes a lot of money on it, after paying a warehouse and employees... Most of the people here running their own business probably understand, for those still at school, you will later.

You guys probably don't realize how hard it is to build a business and a brand. BMS is selling great products for a fraction of the price most of the time. Instead of bashing them like you all do on this thread, try to run your own company and do like Terry does, try to answer emails within two hours, even when the questions are silly, any days of the week...

Personally I've had only great experiences with BMS, and I haven't seen many companies having a customer support like the have. My JB4 had an issue one day, I overnighted it to BMS, they changed what was wrong with it and had it the next day. Free of charge, and I bought mine used... Who does that?

OP I understand your frustration and it is true that BMS could be in touch with you and apologize, or maybe send you a pair of new DPs for the inconvenience. But for the other guys on this forum, please take it easy on a company doing everything they can for us, BMW enthusiasts...
Now, go back and read the OP before making a fool out of yourself with those BMW/Chevy examples, etc...
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      10-17-2012, 03:35 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by dr335is View Post
WHAT???!!!!
1) you have NO clue what Patent means
2) Why is that Terry banned here for years and not welcome on these boards?
3) I read that more than 50% of the comments actually believe that his service is terrible and are not surprised by his action described in this thread.

BMS deserves to go down...over a few $1000s!!!

I believe the mods should ban the word BMS on these forums
Have you ever purchased anything from bms??? I Can say the same thing about vishnu and there products.. vishnu/fftec is worshipped on these forums and its funny because I have a friend who went from procede to jb4 just from the support terry provides through email (answers within 24 hours) and the constant firmware updates and releases on n54 tech.. Anyways this isn't a tuner war get over it there both great motivators for the n54 community and push on each other to release better products. This is a part that can be put together with a couple washers and a plastic clip.. nothing to get mad over and if it was that serious something would have been done by now.
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      10-17-2012, 03:38 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by cooler2442 View Post
So you're saying that when a company comes out with a product that costs 50$ to make and sells it for 800$+ because of the "BMW" tax. Another company see's that they can make it for the same amount but only charge 400$, they shouldn't do that because they would be "copying" another product?

We live in a free economy, if someone else can make the same quality product at half the price then it gets done. Happens everywhere.
My point explained much better
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      10-17-2012, 03:38 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by e90328i View Post
Have you ever purchased anything from bms??? I Can say the same thing about vishnu and there products.. vishnu/fftec is worshipped on these forums and its funny because I have a friend who went from procede to jb4 just from the support terry provides through email (answers within 24 hours) and the constant firmware updates and releases on n54 tech.. Anyways this isn't a tuner war get over it there both great motivators for the n54 community and push on each other to release better products. This is a part that can be put together with a couple washers and a plastic clip.. nothing to get mad over and if it was that serious something would have been done by now.
+1 @ BMS support. Fantastic.
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      10-17-2012, 03:39 PM   #144
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      10-17-2012, 05:12 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by e90328i View Post
My point explained much better
You keep emphasizing how you do not get the whole point of the OP. And you keep proving that you are immature for this thread.
Yes, I know a person who used a wire and made a clothes hanger out of it and is a millionaire today. That does not give the right to me to do the same product, Market it with the inventor's marketing material, call it something else and sell for 60% of his price...
That is stealing.
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      10-17-2012, 08:25 PM   #146
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I know i said I would stay out of this thread, but the amount of eye mucus that has clouded some of your vision's is wretch-worthy. For the record, I run a successful business and while i don't claim to know it all, I do have some idea of how things work. I own a fine jewelry business and the temptation to copy other companies designs is certainly there. Doing so would mean I wouldn't have to spend money on hiring designers or spend countless hours fine-tuning ideas. However, I have avoided that temptation like the plague because it's just not right.

Now, someone from the other side of this debate brought up a good point: We live in a free economy and it is every market entrants right to build upon an existing innovation and sell it for less. Whoever said this is absolutely right. I build upon other people's designs all the time and don't feel any remorse. However, this is not what BMS has done in the case of this clutch stop or copying the PROcede. Terry Burger made an exact replica of Nelson's unique clutch-stop and a shoddy replica of Vishnu's PROcede (It has since improved somewhat). Every single time Shiv released a new feature, BMS initially badmouthed it, and then a few months later they replicated it. Now, if BMS and Vishnu were copying ideas off each other, that would be fine. However, Shiv has always been the first mover and Terry has always followed (CAN integration, Boost Control, CPS Offsetting...the list goes on). This my friends, is blatant copying, and its morally reprehensible.

I love the fact that BMS has been caught red-handed over a $10 clutch stop because it illustrates what they've been doing on a much larger scale. Terry Burger has ducked and dived over the years, but it's time he is made to be accountable for his actions.

Those of you who are trying to twist this discussion into something about customer service or how great BMS' products are, obviously have an amoral perception of business ethics. I, however am not going to sit by and watch Nelson get bullied because his product is only worth a few bucks.
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      10-17-2012, 10:03 PM   #147
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The current links do not have identical photos in them. Copying a design is common practice that benefits consumers by creating a price competitive market. Assuming BMS actually posted your pictures they could be guilty of copyright infringement and you might have a viable course of legal action.

Other than that this is just free market dynamics at work.
I support BMS right to copy your product and offer something similar at a lower price.

I DO NOT support what appears to be a blatant violation of copy right law by stealing your marketing material to sell their products.

Last edited by bmwkbiker; 10-17-2012 at 10:13 PM. Reason: replaced using with stealing, because that what it looks like.
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      10-18-2012, 07:20 AM   #148
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I support BMS right to copy your product and offer something similar at a lower price.

I DO NOT support what appears to be a blatant violation of copy right law by stealing your marketing material to sell their products.
Agreed 100%
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      10-18-2012, 10:15 AM   #149
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Originally Posted by e90328i View Post
Have you ever purchased anything from bms??? I Can say the same thing about vishnu and there products.. vishnu/fftec is worshipped on these forums and its funny because I have a friend who went from procede to jb4 just from the support terry provides through email (answers within 24 hours) and the constant firmware updates and releases on n54 tech.. Anyways this isn't a tuner war get over it there both great motivators for the n54 community and push on each other to release better products. This is a part that can be put together with a couple washers and a plastic clip.. nothing to get mad over and if it was that serious something would have been done by now.
Im still waiting on Terry to get back to me from my emails in March...
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      10-18-2012, 10:39 AM   #150
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VERY interesting reading! I found myself with some strong opinions of the vendor posting this, bms vendor, and other customers making replies. Before I start going off I have a question.

This is the clutch stop product that the vendor produced with months of R&D that bms has copied from him, stole his photos, and stole his marketing materials? Because I have four of these under the chair I am sitting on right now!
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      10-18-2012, 11:41 AM   #151
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Originally Posted by OECMG View Post
VERY interesting reading! I found myself with some strong opinions of the vendor posting this, bms vendor, and other customers making replies. Before I start going off I have a question.

This is the clutch stop product that the vendor produced with months of R&D that bms has copied from him, stole his photos, and stole his marketing materials? Because I have four of these under the chair I am sitting on right now!
I know you're a brand new member, but did you even read the thread?

This is the clutch stop. The one you posted is for the E30, E36, E46. There's a DIY on other forums if you search.

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      10-18-2012, 01:44 PM   #152
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I know you're a brand new member, but did you even read the thread?

This is the clutch stop. The one you posted is for the E30, E36, E46. There's a DIY on other forums if you search.
I see it's the plastic one. Like the metal one only made from plastic. OK. I noticed another vendor is selling this same plastic clutch stop for a long time, have you copied it from them and their photos and their marketing materials? They appear to be the same.



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      10-18-2012, 02:28 PM   #153
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Im still waiting on Terry to get back to me from my emails in March...
I'd say resend cause he might not have gotten it. I've never had him take longer than a day to respond to any of my emails even if they're sent at 11 at night. He usually responds within the hour...
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      10-18-2012, 02:35 PM   #154
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I'd say resend cause he might not have gotten it. I've never had him take longer than a day to respond to any of my emails even if they're sent at 11 at night. He usually responds within the hour...
I sent him an email stating I was having a problem. His response.."There have been no issues reported"

Well, thanks for the effort in trying to resolve it! Not.

Emailed him twice more with the same subject. His response.."Never had an issue, I'll look into it Monday" Never got back to me.

I had to figure it out on my own. Which I did with a friend. No thanks to BMS.
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