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      10-17-2012, 07:20 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by PeterM1 View Post
You may not be off but as you mentioned, can't really tell from the video. This setup should help you record driver inputs, give it a try next time. It should pass CCA tech with flying colors, other clubs' probably not.

LOL! Oh yeah, NJ CCA should have NO problem with that ...
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Originally Posted by ixm3 View Post
Just posted this one as well.
Ended with a black flag...

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=759212
Youtube said the vid is too long - I got around that by following the steps it tells you when you go into Video Manager. I ended up having to re-upload the video.
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      10-17-2012, 11:03 AM   #442
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Hey guys!

I am probably going to do one or two track days. They are 10/29 and 11/11 at NJMP Thunderbolt. Membership fee is $50 and track day is $199.

A friend of mine has a GT-R and told me about this site. Mainly bikes, but they let cars run and they keep the total number of cars on the track low so there aren't as many trains.

Let me know if you are interested.

http://tracktime4cars.com/schedule.html
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      10-17-2012, 11:10 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by badblk335i View Post
Hey guys!

I am probably going to do one or two track days. They are 10/29 and 11/11 at NJMP Thunderbolt. Membership fee is $50 and track day is $199.

A friend of mine has a GT-R and told me about this site. Mainly bikes, but they let cars run and they keep the total number of cars on the track low so there aren't as many trains.

Let me know if you are interested.

http://tracktime4cars.com/schedule.html
Ha, awesome. Is this your first time?

Others here have done TT4C, you get a lot of bang for buck in terms of driving time but it's just way too many hooligans there. Makes Trackdaze look like the CCA NJ chapter lol.
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      10-17-2012, 11:34 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
LOL! Oh yeah, NJ CCA should have NO problem with that ...

Youtube said the vid is too long - I got around that by following the steps it tells you when you go into Video Manager. I ended up having to re-upload the video.
Thanks for the heads up...back to the editing room.
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      10-17-2012, 11:54 AM   #445
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Hey guys!

I am probably going to do one or two track days. They are 10/29 and 11/11 at NJMP Thunderbolt. Membership fee is $50 and track day is $199.

A friend of mine has a GT-R and told me about this site. Mainly bikes, but they let cars run and they keep the total number of cars on the track low so there aren't as many trains.

Let me know if you are interested.

http://tracktime4cars.com/schedule.html
I think I'm going to pass, not because it's dangerous (though that is a factor), but because by that time I'll have had a ton of track time this year.
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      10-17-2012, 02:15 PM   #446
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That would be my third and fourth track day.

Good to know. Hopefully others can post info.
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      10-17-2012, 03:16 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by badblk335i View Post
Hey guys!

I am probably going to do one or two track days. They are 10/29 and 11/11 at NJMP Thunderbolt. Membership fee is $50 and track day is $199.

A friend of mine has a GT-R and told me about this site. Mainly bikes, but they let cars run and they keep the total number of cars on the track low so there aren't as many trains.

Let me know if you are interested.

http://tracktime4cars.com/schedule.html
I've done two events with TT4C at Lightning. If weather is okay, I'll do their Nov 10-11 event at Thunderbolt.

They run three motorcycle groups and one car group. Most of the drivers are advanced level and driving really fast cars. You get 7 or 8 20 minute sessions per day.

edit: oops, the November event is Lightning on Saturday and Thunderbolt on Sunday. Fingers crossed for decent weather.

Last edited by GaryS; 10-17-2012 at 03:22 PM.
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      10-17-2012, 03:29 PM   #448
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Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
I've done two events with TT4C at Lightning. If weather is okay, I'll do their Nov 10-11 event at Thunderbolt.

They run three motorcycle groups and one car group. Most of the drivers are advanced level and driving really fast cars. You get 7 or 8 20 minute sessions per day.

edit: oops, the November event is Lightning on Saturday and Thunderbolt on Sunday. Fingers crossed for decent weather.
What's up Gary - this is Dan (silver Z4 coupe). Knowing you're signing up now I'm tempted lol. Always have fun chasing you haha.
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      10-17-2012, 03:40 PM   #449
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What's up Gary - this is Dan (silver Z4 coupe). Knowing you're signing up now I'm tempted lol. Always have fun chasing you haha.
Hey Dan. I'm doing Thunderbolt with NASA Oct 28-29, and then hopefully the TT4C event. You have to do at least one of them. March or April is too far off.
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      10-17-2012, 04:07 PM   #450
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Hey Dan. I'm doing Thunderbolt with NASA Oct 28-29, and then hopefully the TT4C event. You have to do at least one of them. March or April is too far off.
NASA's Halloween event at NJMP is always fun but NASA (especially Northeast) pricing is just killer. I've actually signed up for 2 events, both with PCA Schattenbaum. One for this Friday, and one for 11/3-4. You should look into them since they're so cheap... but I'll see if I can pull the TT4C.
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      10-17-2012, 06:58 PM   #451
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Originally Posted by GaryS View Post
Hey Dan. I'm doing Thunderbolt with NASA Oct 28-29, and then hopefully the TT4C event. You have to do at least one of them. March or April is too far off.
Hey Gary,
It's 27-28, just making sure you show up on the right dates Come by to say hi, I'll be parked at the DE4 area on Sunday.

Thinking of signing up with Trackdaze for that Monday (10/29) if they don't cancel the event, they'll decide this Friday. TT4C event is too far into November, pushing it weather-wise.
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      10-17-2012, 07:05 PM   #452
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That would be my third and fourth track day.

Good to know. Hopefully others can post info.
Don't take this the wrong way, running with TT4C as your 3rd/4th track days is a bad idea. Zero instruction, single run group and lots of advanced cars testing out parts, lines, strategies. Pick any of CCA, PCA, SCDA, NASA, TrackDaze etc event and you're on the right path!
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      10-17-2012, 08:54 PM   #453
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
LOL! Oh yeah, NJ CCA should have NO problem with that ...

Youtube said the vid is too long - I got around that by following the steps it tells you when you go into Video Manager. I ended up having to re-upload the video.
Reloaded the video.

Plenty of point-by action.
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      10-18-2012, 07:46 AM   #454
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LOL! I figured what the response was going to be before I read the link.

Ask yourself a question: If the car is rolling over and it's flipping (or even just upside down), how in the world are you going to "duck your head?" This is a total BS response and not valid at all. The only way you're going to have ANY protection with rollover is with a full rollbar. If you have a harness bar, it's not going to be any different than the stock car with standard belts other than being held is better. The main difference is you will be able to conscentrate more on driving and less on holding yourself in and may end up not crashing because of this.

Brey-Krause is a VERY good company who has been making harness bars for years. GM outfits their test cars with BK bars! I have seen Vettes sitting at their facility with Michigan manufacturer plates on them. The BK bars are actually tested for strength to ensure they will take the forces of a crash. The e92 bar took 15,000lbs of force before it bent. The EAS bar is not tested.
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      10-18-2012, 07:56 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by Splinterz88 View Post
Some more inspiration from the z4 track threads:
Thanks Art! We'll be doing an aero package, but minus the air brake a.k.a. the big wing!

It'll more than likely be something similar to this color wise:
http://www.designerwraps.com/vehicle.../chrome-wraps/
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      10-18-2012, 08:23 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by PeterM1
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Originally Posted by badblk335i View Post
That would be my third and fourth track day.

Good to know. Hopefully others can post info.
Don't take this the wrong way, running with TT4C as your 3rd/4th track days is a bad idea. Zero instruction, single run group and lots of advanced cars testing out parts, lines, strategies. Pick any of CCA, PCA, SCDA, NASA, TrackDaze etc event and you're on the right path!
No offense taken at all. Thanks for the heads up.

I will call and see how many cars are registered and how many car groups there may be.

When I spoke to my buddy with the GT-R, he was stating that you can have an instructor and they have different run groups.

I will do more research tho. I don't want to be that guy pointing everyone around.....
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      10-18-2012, 08:39 AM   #457
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Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
LOL! I figured what the response was going to be before I read the link.

Ask yourself a question: If the car is rolling over and it's flipping (or even just upside down), how in the world are you going to "duck your head?" This is a total BS response and not valid at all. The only way you're going to have ANY protection with rollover is with a full rollbar. If you have a harness bar, it's not going to be any different than the stock car with standard belts other than being held is better. The main difference is you will be able to conscentrate more on driving and less on holding yourself in and may end up not crashing because of this.

Brey-Krause is a VERY good company who has been making harness bars for years. GM outfits their test cars with BK bars! I have seen Vettes sitting at their facility with Michigan manufacturer plates on them. The BK bars are actually tested for strength to ensure they will take the forces of a crash. The e92 bar took 15,000lbs of force before it bent. The EAS bar is not tested.
But I believe that's the point, CJ isn't going to buy a harness bar just so end of day he uses the stock belts, then the harness bar serves no purpose. The 5/6pt harness in combination with the harness bar will not budge one bit. You'll be fully upright and if the roof caves, you have nowhere to go. With a stock 3 point harness, you're not fully upright and you do have freedom in your neck to move your head forward. It's not even something you'd actively have to do but gravity would naturally move your head forward.

There's no question about BK's reputation and quality, but I think consensus concern is that their bar holding up during a crash doesn't have anything to do with rollover; rather the focus is rollover and "submarining" concern here.
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      10-18-2012, 10:34 AM   #458
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But I believe that's the point, CJ isn't going to buy a harness bar just so end of day he uses the stock belts, then the harness bar serves no purpose. The 5/6pt harness in combination with the harness bar will not budge one bit. You'll be fully upright and if the roof caves, you have nowhere to go. With a stock 3 point harness, you're not fully upright and you do have freedom in your neck to move your head forward. It's not even something you'd actively have to do but gravity would naturally move your head forward.

There's no question about BK's reputation and quality, but I think consensus concern is that their bar holding up during a crash doesn't have anything to do with rollover; rather the focus is rollover and "submarining" concern here.
This sounds, honestly, like a modern version of the "I don't wear seat belts because in case of a fire, I have to be able to get out of the car" argument.

Sure, in the case of a very particular type of rollover, the harness could be a detriment. In every other conceivable type of accident, the harness would hold you better and protect you better. Not to mention that it will lessen your fatigue from trying to hold yourself, reducing the chance of an accident in the first place.

I guess I'd like to see the statistics on "people killed due to harnesses" vs. "People saved due to harnesses". Since the harness is optional safety equipment each of us can make our own decision and I respect yours; but lets make it an informed decision and learn the numbers and learn what risks we are taking on.
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      10-18-2012, 10:49 AM   #459
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My point is in a roll over situation, you're not going to be able to move your head forward no matter what. I know someone who has been upside down in a car and he said you are at the mercy of the belts. You can not bend your neck any which way when the car is being tossed around. The forces keep your head/neck straight.
No submarining either with a 6-point harness so no issue there either.

Again, the GM test engineers insist on using the harness bar for testing. They are auto engineers who essentially test a car beyond its limits. They essentially are told to try to break the car and drive it WAY beyond what anyone of us would ever do. I had a relative that worked at the Arizona test facilities for several years for GM and they do things to cars there that we would cringe. I also had a good friend that worked for Chrysler and tested may different cars. He drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee in 4WD low up and down an asphalt hill for 4 hours straight trying to break the drivetrain. He ended up boiling over the trans fluid and started it on fire! So they moved the trans fill point so this wouldn't happen.

Again, my point is, if there are manufacturer engineers using such a device than why are you listening to "someone" on an internet forum board?
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      10-18-2012, 11:31 AM   #460
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DallasBoosted View Post
This sounds, honestly, like a modern version of the "I don't wear seat belts because in case of a fire, I have to be able to get out of the car" argument.

Sure, in the case of a very particular type of rollover, the harness could be a detriment. In every other conceivable type of accident, the harness would hold you better and protect you better. Not to mention that it will lessen your fatigue from trying to hold yourself, reducing the chance of an accident in the first place. Go sideways on gravel and it's very likely you'll flip.

I guess I'd like to see the statistics on "people killed due to harnesses" vs. "People saved due to harnesses". Since the harness is optional safety equipment each of us can make our own decision and I respect yours; but lets make it an informed decision and learn the numbers and learn what risks we are taking on.
I've actually never heard that fire argument and that's just pure stupidity. You are clearly way more likely to get injured as a result of impact than fire. However on track, the chance of a rollover isn't that slim as compared to the likelihood of your car catching fire.

I do agree however it will hold you better and prevent fatigue, although fatigue is more relevant to driving on track. Can't see how more/less fatigue will really come into play during an incident.

Empirical data is something I welcome as well, but don't think the question is killed due to harness vs saved due to harness, rather incidents with harness only vs incidents with harness and roll bar.



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Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
My point is in a roll over situation, you're not going to be able to move your head forward no matter what. I know someone who has been upside down in a car and he said you are at the mercy of the belts. You can not bend your neck any which way when the car is being tossed around. The forces keep your head/neck straight.
No submarining either with a 6-point harness so no issue there either.

Again, the GM test engineers insist on using the harness bar for testing. They are auto engineers who essentially test a car beyond its limits. They essentially are told to try to break the car and drive it WAY beyond what anyone of us would ever do. I had a relative that worked at the Arizona test facilities for several years for GM and they do things to cars there that we would cringe. I also had a good friend that worked for Chrysler and tested may different cars. He drove a Jeep Grand Cherokee in 4WD low up and down an asphalt hill for 4 hours straight trying to break the drivetrain. He ended up boiling over the trans fluid and started it on fire! So they moved the trans fill point so this wouldn't happen.

Again, my point is, if there are manufacturer engineers using such a device than why are you listening to "someone" on an internet forum board?
Jeff - I'm not disagreeing with you but like I said, end of day no matter how strong of an opinion you have on the topic, club rules are club rules. If the chief of tech is another example of a "forum" guy, so be it. NASA NE's tech is pretty stiff and I recall someone getting denied at Wakins because his harness bar wasn't set at the right angle (and he had a full cage). The issue was of course the potential submarining aspect - it's a real concern to them. Whether it's set at the wrong angle or it's not used in conjunction with a rollbar is something we'll have to deal with.

And for the record, I would love to get away with just a bolt-in harness bar. It's clean, not permanent and simple...
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      10-18-2012, 02:01 PM   #461
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSC_OFF View Post
I've actually never heard that fire argument and that's just pure stupidity. You are clearly way more likely to get injured as a result of impact than fire. However on track, the chance of a rollover isn't that slim as compared to the likelihood of your car catching fire.

I do agree however it will hold you better and prevent fatigue, although fatigue is more relevant to driving on track. Can't see how more/less fatigue will really come into play during an incident.

Empirical data is something I welcome as well, but don't think the question is killed due to harness vs saved due to harness, rather incidents with harness only vs incidents with harness and roll bar.

Jeff - I'm not disagreeing with you but like I said, end of day no matter how strong of an opinion you have on the topic, club rules are club rules. If the chief of tech is another example of a "forum" guy, so be it. NASA NE's tech is pretty stiff and I recall someone getting denied at Wakins because his harness bar wasn't set at the right angle (and he had a full cage). The issue was of course the potential submarining aspect - it's a real concern to them. Whether it's set at the wrong angle or it's not used in conjunction with a rollbar is something we'll have to deal with.

And for the record, I would love to get away with just a bolt-in harness bar. It's clean, not permanent and simple...
I know you're just trying to figure out what's best to do and easiest. I'm just trying to come from the other direction (my belief as well).
As for the rollbar: They do have a spec that they need to be built to. If the cross-bar for the harness is at the wrong angle, it won't pass inspection.
I've run with a gentleman at Lime Rock, NJMP and Watkins Glen with CCA and he had harnesses that latched into the rear child safety seat anchors. He's never been denied running with this setup. The angle is much greater than the recommended for the harnesses, but he's allowed to run because the seats have been tested to withstand the crush in the event of a rollover.
Yes, I'm sure the head tech inspector has his reasons for not liking harness bars, but for me it's a matter of common sense.
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      10-18-2012, 04:02 PM   #462
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Dan, I think safety is not really an issue here. Your car is far from a race car, and you're not racing, or even pushing 100%. I don't really see you rolling your car for any reason.

You think the harness will REALLY improve your lap times? And if so, are those mere fractions of seconds worth the extra 2-3 grand or whatever? For some reason, I have a feeling that you will see no improvement, harness or not. You already have the bucket seat, which is enough for support IMO.

My first vote is not wasting money on them at this point, until you decide to make a race car. But from what I know about you, that you'd buy brand new red Pole Position to match your interior, I think you're gonna get the harness anyway. If you insist so, get at least a roll bar or a half cage, but no more. I think if you just get the harness with only a harness bar, your balls are gonna shrink from all this hype that you won't be able to comfortably push your car.
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