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Originally Posted by TSM330i

I know you're just trying to figure out what's best to do and easiest. I'm just trying to come from the other direction (my belief as well).
As for the rollbar: They do have a spec that they need to be built to. If the cross-bar for the harness is at the wrong angle, it won't pass inspection.
I've run with a gentleman at Lime Rock, NJMP and Watkins Glen with CCA and he had harnesses that latched into the rear child safety seat anchors. He's never been denied running with this setup. The angle is much greater than the recommended for the harnesses, but he's allowed to run because the seats have been tested to withstand the crush in the event of a rollover.
Yes, I'm sure the head tech inspector has his reasons for not liking harness bars, but for me it's a matter of common sense.

Jeff - if you're referring to harnesses that clip into the back seat, I've seen those before. I believe they're made by Schroth and are meant to work with the oem seat w/o a harness bar. To be honest, if I had a back seat row, I would've kept my stock seats and gone with that setup as well. Those even allow Hans devices!

We'll see, clearly there's a lot of research that needs to be done which is why I proposed the question now given we're entering the off-season. Ideally, I'm thinking get the 2nd Recaro I need that way I can run a half cage (stock seat with cage is a big no no).

Originally Posted by wonho

Dan, I think safety is not really an issue here. Your car is far from a race car, and you're not racing, or even pushing 100%. I don't really see you rolling your car for any reason.

You think the harness will REALLY improve your lap times? And if so, are those mere fractions of seconds worth the extra 2-3 grand or whatever? For some reason, I have a feeling that you will see no improvement, harness or not. You already have the bucket seat, which is enough for support IMO.

My first vote is not wasting money on them at this point, until you decide to make a race car. But from what I know about you, that you'd buy brand new red Pole Position to match your interior, I think you're gonna get the harness anyway. If you insist so, get at least a roll bar or a half cage, but no more. I think if you just get the harness with only a harness bar, your balls are gonna shrink from all this hype that you won't be able to comfortably push your car.

Woah woah ease up here bigboi. Nobody claimed to own a race car nor did I ever say the purpose of this was to shave lap times so you shouldn't put words in my mouth.

If you read my NASA link, all of it centered around a safety perspective. To say only racers are at risk of suffering injuries or accidents is pretty naive. I can say with confidence we've seen multiple wrecks in the past 3 events, most if not all were DE. And rollover or not, the ability to run a Hans is a huge benefit IMO.

Secondly whether I got a Grimace purple seat that costs twice the price of a used seat has no relevance. End of day I chose the PP because it fit me the best, was a definite fit for my car, and I got a great price on it. And if it looks damn good in my interior even better.

Lastly, your suggestion of getting a half cage instead of harness bar (only) is what I've bet leaning towards from the beginning (see my response to CJ's original post) so we're not in disagreement.

[Splinterz88]

diesel378 for PCA RTR SP

[mid-corner fun]

Let's get the illusion that a rollover is not happening in a DE out of the way. Here's a low speed rollover at our back yard, Limerock. Notice what happens to the roof.



Now, if it were me, I would ideally like my roof to stay in place via a cage. If there's no cage, as is the case in the vast majority of DE cars, I would like something to give way so my head doesn't get crashed. I don't know about you but my helmet sits about 2 fingers away from the roof. Car seats are designed to fold back under pressure. If a bar is there, you just lost that advantage. That's why half-solutions are sometimes worse than the alternative.

The 3-point belt system is designed to work with OEM (folding) seats and airbags. Once that system is altered, either via a fixed back seat, a harness bar or a 4/5/6pt harness you've lost some of the advantages of that design.

I'm not saying don't it, I'm saying that one needs to understand what disadvantages are introduced by implementing anything less than a full-cage/fixed seat/6pt harness system before doing so.

[will.c]

Originally Posted by DSC_OFF

Woah woah ease up here bigboi. Nobody claimed to own a race car nor did I ever say the purpose of this was to shave lap times so you shouldn't put words in my mouth.

If you read my NASA link, all of it centered around a safety perspective. To say only racers are at risk of suffering injuries or accidents is pretty naive. I can say with confidence we've seen multiple wrecks in the past 3 events, most if not all were DE. And rollover or not, the ability to run a Hans is a huge benefit IMO.

Secondly whether I got a Grimace purple seat that costs twice the price of a used seat has no relevance. End of day I chose the PP because it fit me the best, was a definite fit for my car, and I got a great price on it. And if it looks damn good in my interior evev better.

Lastly, your suggestion of getting a half cage instead of harness bar (only) is what I've bet leaning towards from the beginning (see my response to CJ's original post) so we're not in disagreement.

relax.. I was just giving you my honest opinion with a bit of joke.. I wont.

[will.c]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

Let's get the illusion that a rollover is not happening in a DE out of the way. Here's a low speed rollover at our back yard, Limerock. Notice what happens to the roof.

Now, if it were me, I would ideally like my roof to stay in place via a cage. If there's no cage, as is the case in the vast majority of DE cars, I would like something to give way so my head doesn't get crashed. I don't know about you but my helmet sits about 2 fingers away from the roof. Car seats are designed to fold back under pressure. If a bar is there, you just lost that advantage. That's why half-solutions are sometimes worse than the alternative.

The 3-point belt system is designed to work with OEM (folding) seats and airbags. Once that system is altered, either via a fixed back seat, a harness bar or a 4/5/6pt harness you've lost some of the advantages of that design.

I'm not saying don't it, I'm saying that one needs to understand what disadvantages are introduced by implementing anything less than a full-cage/fixed seat/6pt harness system before doing so.

I see. I stand corrected. I apologize and I'll stay out.

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Originally Posted by PeterM1

Let's get the illusion that a rollover is not happening in a DE out of the way. Here's a low speed rollover at our back yard, Limerock. Notice what happens to the roof.



Now, if it were me, I would ideally like my roof to stay in place via a cage. If there's no cage, as is the case in the vast majority of DE cars, I would like something to give way so my head doesn't get crashed. I don't know about you but my helmet sits about 2 fingers away from the roof. Car seats are designed to fold back under pressure. If a bar is there, you just lost that advantage. That's why half-solutions are sometimes worse than the alternative.

The 3-point belt system is designed to work with OEM (folding) seats and airbags. Once that system is altered, either via a fixed back seat, a harness bar or a 4/5/6pt harness you've lost some of the advantages of that design.

I'm not saying don't it, I'm saying that one needs to understand what disadvantages are introduced by implementing anything less than a full-cage/fixed seat/6pt harness system before doing so.

Agree on everything above. I'm in the school of thought that oem seat + stock 3 pt + stock interior is probably the safest setup. To go any safer, you have to do it right and can't mix/match options that weren't meant to go together. If you're going to go with a fixed back seat, get the necessary rollover protection or at very least, stick with the stock 3pt receptacle. While this (my current setup) isn't ideal, I sort of justify it by telling myself at least that's how some of the P-cars came, ie Recaro PP without any harness, cage nor bar.

I really think half cage is the next logical solution. Remains streetable, but provides the protection I need on track and works with my current / future setup.

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by wonho

I see. I stand corrected. I apologize and I'll stay out.

I was hoping for the opposite, do some research on how to get your fixed back seats in without sacrificing too much safety.

And btw, Dan's case is different, the Z has no backseat and no space for anything to fold. I don't think (I could be wrong) a fixed back vs a folding back seats makes any difference in his case.

[Rmk392]

Can someone explain why he lost control. He seemed to be going pretty easy into the turn.

[DallasBoosted]

Originally Posted by PeterM1

Let's get the illusion that a rollover is not happening in a DE out of the way. Here's a low speed rollover at our back yard, Limerock. Notice what happens to the roof.

Not trying to be argumentative but it didn't look like he "was able to duck the roof" it looks like he is still straight up in the seat in that rollover accident.

[ixm3]

Originally Posted by Rmk392

Can someone explain why he lost control. He seemed to be going pretty easy into the turn.

Rear end got light into the turn.
He either trail braked too long or came in too hot and lifted/ braked, which shifted the weight off the rear wheels. Also, he countered way too slow.

An instructor came into turn 7 at Njmp Lightning too hot in front of me and started spinning like that video (reverse direction). But he kept he foot in it and counter steered through the turn at about 40 degrees. He basically drifted through fast and furious style. We talked afterwards and it turns out he was the instructor for the skid pad...perfect.

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by Rmk392

Can someone explain why he lost control. He seemed to be going pretty easy into the turn.

I've been to Limerock and he tried to pinch the car in because he thought he was going to run wide and lost grip in the back end.

Also, in the video, I see no evidence of him "ducking" when the car rolled over. In fact, I see the opposite. He looks to be completely extended and hanging from the belts as I said earlier.

Dan, I'll try to get a couple of shops for a half cage for you. It turns out the one we were looking to do the cage in the race car isn't as close as I thought.

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Originally Posted by TSM330i

I've been to Limerock and he tried to pinch the car in because he thought he was going to run wide and lost grip in the back end.

Dan, I'll try to get a couple of shops for a half cage for you. It turns out the one we were looking to do the cage in the race car isn't as close as I thought.

Thanks Jeff, much appreciated... and looking at that vid, the way he talks to himself he sounds like an idiot. How you lose traction and flip an awd subie is beyond me lol.

Just did one day at T-bolt, getting better for sure. I'm down to a 1:40, hopefully I'll break into high 1:3x in a couple of weeks!

[TSM330i]

Originally Posted by DSC_OFF

Thanks Jeff, much appreciated... and looking at that vid, the way he talks to himself he sounds like an idiot. How you lose traction and flip an awd subie is beyond me lol.

Just did one day at T-bolt, getting better for sure. I'm down to a 1:40, hopefully I'll break into high 1:3x in a couple of weeks!

Nice vid! You'll be down into 1:3X soon. I ran with PCA there in the black group in April. I ran a 1:38, but did not pass many cars at all! GT3RSR are fast cars. I was able to reel in an Exige S when his street tires got hot. PCA is a great bunch of guys. Lots of passing zones and track time.

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by TSM330i

Nice vid! You'll be down into 1:3X soon. I ran with PCA there in the black group in April. I ran a 1:38, but did not pass many cars at all! GT3RSR are fast cars. I was able to reel in an Exige S when his street tires got hot. PCA is a great bunch of guys. Lots of passing zones and track time.

Agreed, PCA is the best buck for track time in structured intermediate/advanced right now.

The RSs are extremely fast cars, old and new, tough to beat. I made the mistake of attending an "unmuffled/advanced" event at Limerock where apparently everybody brings out their highly-modified/non-street-legal contraptions turning 50-sec laps. That was the first time that I was getting consistently lapped by a whole pack in the advanced group, quite an eye opener. Got my lap time down by 2 secs that day and yet that's not what was in my mind on the way home...

[will.c]

Got a newbie question: I've had my star specs all season ~13 days, and they still have like 4/32 tread left. I felt their sweet spot was around 35 psi all 4 until recently the car got kinda squirmy, sometimes pushing, other times rears getting slippery. So I jacked up the rears to 38 and it stabilized somewhat, but overall the car still doesn't feel as good as it used to. I don't know if I'm simply pushing my car more than before, or my tires are heat cycled out. Should I try to use these for the Nov DE coming up or new tires? I'd hate to throw them out cuz they have decent tread left still...

Another question is, how important/effective is heat cycling new R-comps like TR does? I'm highly considering NT01s next.

[mid-corner fun]

StarSpecs get greasy after 10-15mins regardless of temp, no way around it. The StarSpec sweet spot for my car and driving style was 37psi hot.

NT01s need to be driven at a higher slip angle and ideally -2.x camber or more. 38psi hot. If you try to drive them like the StarSpecs they'll be gone in 2-4 days. The first time you run them they'll be slippery for a couple of laps (just once) and then they'll remain at a set grip level till you cord them.

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Originally Posted by wonho

Got a newbie question: I've had my star specs all season ~13 days, and they still have like 4/32 tread left. I felt their sweet spot was around 35 psi all 4 until recently the car got kinda squirmy, sometimes pushing, other times rears getting slippery. So I jacked up the rears to 38 and it stabilized somewhat, but overall the car still doesn't feel as good as it used to. I don't know if I'm simply pushing my car more than before, or my tires are heat cycled out. Should I try to use these for the Nov DE coming up or new tires? I'd hate to throw them out cuz they have decent tread left still...

Another question is, how important/effective is heat cycling new R-comps like TR does? I'm highly considering NT01s next.

You may as well use them for what I'd imagine is probably your final event for the year and just don't drive 10/10ths. 4/32nd is plenty of tread and while they may not grip as well as they did day 1, doesn't mean they're not serviceable. I'd keep them for Nov and look at a new set in the spring (assuming you have a separate winter set).

Also keep in mind, as these tires get older, the same pressure that worked for you in day 1 won't be the same down the road.

[CJ421]

Originally Posted by DSC_OFF

Just did one day at T-bolt, getting better for sure. I'm down to a 1:40, hopefully I'll break into high 1:3x in a couple of weeks!

Nice video ... is that all with the iphone? How does it know what RPM you're at?

I want to mount my camera somewhere else; my issue is the lack of a mounting spot considering I have no headrest posts and the back shelf is too far away. Damn. it.

[mid-corner fun]

Originally Posted by CJ421

I want to mount my camera somewhere else; my issue is the lack of a mounting spot considering I have no headrest posts and the back shelf is too far away. Damn. it.

upside-down suction mount on sunroof

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Originally Posted by CJ421

Nice video ... is that all with the iphone? How does it know what RPM you're at?

I want to mount my camera somewhere else; my issue is the lack of a mounting spot considering I have no headrest posts and the back shelf is too far away. Damn. it.

Yep, like I said before recording on iPhone makes everything easier. Export photos/videos to your pc or upload directly to Vimeo/YT in HD.

OBD data is taken with GoPoint BT1 (bluetooth) adapter. GoPoint is compatible with Harry's Lap Timer!

[will.c]

Alright good I'll save some money then. Btw I've read on other forums that TR's HC is kinda gimmick.

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Originally Posted by wonho

Alright good I'll save some money then. Btw I've read on other forums that TR's HC is kinda gimmick.

Which tire and size were you planning to go with?