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      09-21-2012, 04:05 PM   #111
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Good question nitehawk and I'd like to add to it. I noticed on M3 E9X suspension conversion kits that the rear upper links and guide rods have a slight bend to them while the Megan camber and trailing arms are straighter.

Does this matter?
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      10-23-2012, 08:39 PM   #112
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I had the bearings in my Rogue toe arms replaced with Aurora spherical bearings at VAC Motorsports (they recommended and did all the research for me). Top quality. VAC put real rod end boots on them that cover the entire end snugly as well, as opposed to the practically worthless ones that came with these. I should be good for a long time.
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      10-23-2012, 08:43 PM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
I had the bearings in my Rogue toe arms replaced with Aurora spherical bearings at VAC Motorsports (they recommended and did all the research for me). Top quality. VAC put real rod end boots on them that cover the entire end snugly as well, as opposed to the practically worthless ones that came with these. I should be good for a long time.
What did that cost? Alignment too, right?
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      10-23-2012, 09:15 PM   #114
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I'll PM you. Yes I got alignment too, it makes a big difference in how the car feels.
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      10-23-2012, 10:30 PM   #115
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Just as an additional point of reference I put in the Ground Control toe links last week. I'll let you know if any clunks/noises begin.
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      10-24-2012, 01:21 AM   #116
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Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
What did that cost? Alignment too, right?
+1 I'm weighing my options right now about toe arms. I have a brand new set of RE Toe arms that I might get rid of because I don't want to deal with the noise.

Still trying to find more info on the Megan and Ground Control ones.
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      10-24-2012, 02:52 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Truong View Post
+1 I'm weighing my options right now about toe arms. I have a brand new set of RE Toe arms that I might get rid of because I don't want to deal with the noise.

Still trying to find more info on the Megan and Ground Control ones.
Another viable option is to purchase BMW Motorsport Group N bushings from Turner MS and press them into your oe toe arms
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      10-24-2012, 08:45 AM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
I'll PM you. Yes I got alignment too, it makes a big difference in how the car feels.
I also have an update on my car.... I took my summers off and put my snows on the other day because I had the car in for 3 injectors that stopped working. Thought I might as well do it all at once.

What we noticed were 2 things...

1) the rear tires on the inside were down to the threads... could be related to the meth and my right foot.

2) The tire was worn incorrectly - my mechanic said I probably had too much toe out - Alignment.

My question is, could this be one of my contributing factors in the instability of the car? If I was toe'd out, maybe the car under load was trying to go the direction of the toe and it started to fight itself... just guessing.

Anyway, I'll have to get the car aligned and I will have the shop check on the Rogue arms I have for bushing quality.
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      10-24-2012, 09:32 AM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
1) the rear tires on the inside were down to the threads... could be related to the meth and my right foot.

2) The tire was worn incorrectly - my mechanic said I probably had too much toe out - Alignment.

My question is, could this be one of my contributing factors in the instability of the car? If I was toe'd out, maybe the car under load was trying to go the direction of the toe and it started to fight itself... just guessing.
For sure - bad toe settings will create weird handling characteristics and accelerated tire wear. Camber contributes to tire wear but not as much as toe in my experience.
The alignment report is a tell-all but based on what you said it definitely sounds like your toe is off in the rear. It shouldn't be a problem getting it back to spec since you have adjustable rear toe arms.
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      10-24-2012, 09:45 AM   #120
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I knew from day one those toe links would be a problem thats why I went with the MR arms, no noise, no issues.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
I had the bearings in my Rogue toe arms replaced with Aurora spherical bearings at VAC Motorsports (they recommended and did all the research for me). Top quality. VAC put real rod end boots on them that cover the entire end snugly as well, as opposed to the practically worthless ones that came with these. I should be good for a long time.
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      10-24-2012, 09:48 AM   #121
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No it doesnt matter


Quote:
Originally Posted by GreekboyD View Post
Good question nitehawk and I'd like to add to it. I noticed on M3 E9X suspension conversion kits that the rear upper links and guide rods have a slight bend to them while the Megan camber and trailing arms are straighter.

Does this matter?
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      10-24-2012, 09:49 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaFish View Post
I also have an update on my car.... I took my summers off and put my snows on the other day because I had the car in for 3 injectors that stopped working. Thought I might as well do it all at once.

What we noticed were 2 things...

1) the rear tires on the inside were down to the threads... could be related to the meth and my right foot.

2) The tire was worn incorrectly - my mechanic said I probably had too much toe out - Alignment.

My question is, could this be one of my contributing factors in the instability of the car? If I was toe'd out, maybe the car under load was trying to go the direction of the toe and it started to fight itself... just guessing.

Anyway, I'll have to get the car aligned and I will have the shop check on the Rogue arms I have for bushing quality.
Rear toe out will create a rear-steer effect for sure.
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      01-04-2013, 07:28 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by CJ421 View Post
For sure - bad toe settings will create weird handling characteristics and accelerated tire wear. Camber contributes to tire wear but not as much as toe in my experience.
The alignment report is a tell-all but based on what you said it definitely sounds like your toe is off in the rear. It shouldn't be a problem getting it back to spec since you have adjustable rear toe arms.
I posted this in my thread too... but I thought I would post it here just in case people have CVC's thread subscribed.

I went last night to AL TECH in Toronto to see Pat. Pat did a full and complete 4 wheel alignment. A PROPER ONE. I had originally taken the car to the dealer to get the 4 wheel done, but I don't think they did a good job. Pat did a before and after report and showed me what was going on with the car before he did it.

The car was TOE'd OUT on the 2 rears, TOE'd out on one front and the other was ok. He said when the car would squat on accell, it would accentuate the problem and the car would want to push out to the corners it was toe'd out too. Since both were toe'd out, it was fighting itself as to which way it would go - giving me the indirection that I was feeling.

He TOE'd IN both wheels slightly. He said once I nail it, the rears would then come online straight. More importantly, he made both toe settings the same on left and right, so that the car would at least go in a straight line.

He fixed the front end alignment too. It showed that I had -2.2 degrees of negative camber from my wishbones and camber plates too... that was cool.

The car is FIXED ! It now does track in a straight line. I have only had the car for 1 night, so I will put some miles on and report back. But the rear end wavering all over the place is definitely fixed. I nail the gas, meth kicks in, 19PSI and the car goes where I point it without immediately turning right to keep it straight ! I can't begin to describe my relief ! It was really bugging me.

COST: $60 bucks ! SIXTY BUCKS ! It was FREE !! I got $20 off because I mentioned I was a E90 forum member and I heard about him here too !

Pat did say that the alignment on these cars goes out fairly easily and that I should do it again in the spring. I will be getting new summer rubber, so I will definitely be doing that. Plus, I am going to go with a PSS in the spring too... I can't wait.

CVC - I'll check it out again in my commute of an hour today and confirm. I have had my rogue arms on for quite some time now, with bad alignment. Pat ddn't say anything was worn out or loose - to address I think your question about longevity of these parts - specifically the rogue arms. I definitely don't feel any slop - car is tight. (using RFT snows - 225/30/17' right now).
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      01-04-2013, 11:29 AM   #124
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^ I'm glad to hear your car is tracking straight under hard accel. Let's hope that's still the case later this year when you put grippy 265's on the rear.
My issue with the RE toe arms was the spherical joints were making a clunking noise 3 months after install; they did help lateral stability tho
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      01-04-2013, 08:40 PM   #125
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Great to hear DaFish. Toe out in the rear, ouchie. The dealer obviously didn't care and/or didn't know what they were doing.
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      01-08-2014, 12:56 PM   #126
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I'd like to and try and revive this thread for anyone trying to improve rear instability under acceleration, and anyone considering upgrading their rear toe arms.

Now that everyone has more miles on their rear toe arms, can you please report back an update?

- How are the rear toe arms holding up
- Have you sorted your rear instability issues? (via upgraded toe arms, bushing upgrades, or getting a proper alignment)
- Are there any new options for rear toe arms not mentioned in this thread?
(i.e. such stock style arms with improved style end bushings)

Thanks to anyone who can give us an update.....
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      01-08-2014, 01:03 PM   #127
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Adjustable Rear Toe Arms

Here are the rear toe arm options that I am aware of:

Rogue - http://www.rogueengineering.com/mm5/...ct_Code=E9X_TA

Megan - http://www.meganracing.com/product_d...d=891&catid=54

Ground Control - http://www.ground-control-store.com/.../II=908/CA=165

GSR - http://www.europeanautosource.com/in...-3-series.html

Dinan - http://dinancars.com/product/r280-00...eries&mid=1012

If anyone has more options to add, please reply to this post.

Dinan just raised their price for $499 to $549 so I don't think we will be getting any reviews on those....but here is a video where Steve explains the "Toe Steer" effect on the M3. Same principle applies to the 335i, expect that the OEM M3 vs 335i arm configuration is different -


Last edited by motuman; 01-08-2014 at 01:22 PM.
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      01-08-2014, 01:18 PM   #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Orb View Post
Those looking at toe links or any other suspension linkage should consider any product offered suspect regardless of the vendor. Only a small number of vendors offer well engineered products but most are just horrific in their execution (or lack of). If one looks beyond in the hype and looks closely at the mechanic aspect you will select a better product.

Toe Link:

The toe link structure is limited to maximum diameter (thickness) of about 21 mm since it will hit the spring if it larger than this. Given the design approach this leaves you with no geometry options so we can just look at the materials. Steel Alloy is 3 times strong and stiffer than aluminum. The only stiffer material is carbon fiber. The OEM link is magnitudes stiffer and stronger than the steel round bar adjustable link due to its geometry. I have run several FEA simulation of toe link designs and can without a doubt say that aluminum round bar at 21 mm is not safe in a crash or in a high load situation. The design goal of BMW was to have the lower front link buckle from a crash so your suspension doesn’t puncture the fuel tank. If you think that you aluminum link was engineered then I would ask the vendor for proof they did some due diligence… I expect none.

Spherical Bearing:

The majority of spherical bearing on the market are lined with Teflon based materials and the ball and race are made from steel. The bearing vendors provide data sheets for load and surface speed capacity of each bearing size and the respective materials. A vast majority of these bearing would not be suitable for automotive application due to the bearing high surface speed requirement. If you have a suspension link with low end bearing it would be likely that it is not suitable for this application. Unsealed bearing of this type wear exponentially with small amounts of contamination (life measured in hours or even minutes). A bearing is considered to be worn out at when the friction level hits 0.25 and not when it starts making noise. Generally, Teflon lined bearing are a poor choice for an automotive application since even the best quality bearing have a reality short life when compared to alternative designs and materials. If the bearing life doesn’t matter and ultimate stiffness / feel is desired then this would be and good choice.

The best possible spherical bearing design for automotive application is a steel ball with a plastic race that is lubed and sealed. This type of design works well with high bearing surface speeds and can be preloaded as desired. You will find this type of design in high end OEM cars like the M3. The life of this bearing is going to about 20 times longer than the best Teflon lined bearing. The bearing also reduces NVH a great deal. There is little or no difference in joint stiffness when compared to Teflon lined bearing. Hardrace (aka Megan) links are designed with this methodology. You can also get roll bar end links for Turner Motorsports that use this design as well.
Thanks for the excellent info.

Are there any new rear toe arm's or available bushing/bearing options since you posted this link almost a year and half ago?
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      01-08-2014, 02:15 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by motuman View Post
Here are the rear toe arm options that I am aware of:

Rogue - http://www.rogueengineering.com/mm5/...ct_Code=E9X_TA

Megan - http://www.meganracing.com/product_d...d=891&catid=54

Ground Control - http://www.ground-control-store.com/.../II=908/CA=165

GSR - http://www.europeanautosource.com/in...-3-series.html

Dinan - http://dinancars.com/product/r280-00...eries&mid=1012

If anyone has more options to add, please reply to this post.

Dinan just raised their price for $499 to $549 so I don't think we will be getting any reviews on those....but here is a video where Steve explains the "Toe Steer" effect on the M3. Same principle applies to the 335i, expect that the OEM M3 vs 335i arm configuration is different -

Another option is to purchase BMW Motorsport group N bushings from Turner Motorsport and press them into your OE toe arms. I wouldn't use polyurethane for control arm as they'll get squeaky.
I'd avoid any aftermarket toe arm that uses a spherical bearing joint. I've not read one complaint about Megan Racing's toe arms so they'd be my choice from your list.
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      02-15-2014, 06:56 PM   #130
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Quote:
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Here are the rear toe arm options that I am aware of ...
Thanks for this !

Im in the process of getting a Quaife LSD installed on my manual 6-speed BMW 135i.

I suppose that when I switch from an open 3.08 diff to a LSD 3.46 diff, with increased torque, and load on the diff bushings, I may get too much deflection with the stock ones.

Since I also lap my 135i, there might be additional wear and tear to consider too. So perhaps I better jump to a set of solid aftermarket diff bushings, but Im a little bit concerned with NVH, and can help but wonder if this mod is really necessary.

I have is a CObb Stage 1 aggressive tune. One day though, I may want to use R compound tires on my 135i, which will only torture the rear end even more.

Im now considering getting adjustable toe links.

I have M3 subframe bushings, and they helped a lot to remove the rear end wiggle.

After reading this entire thread, and it is a nice one, Im convined I need solid and long-lasting rear adjustable toe arms, such as the pretty pink Megan Racing ones :-)

For my application, what are your thoughts, would M3 upper rear control arms also help (required or not), what about solid diff bushings (required or not)?

Thanks for your feedback...
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      02-15-2014, 07:22 PM   #131
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^ depends how hard you drive the car, if you nail the throttle a lot, track or DD.
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      02-15-2014, 07:27 PM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cvc 22349a View Post
^ depends how hard you drive the car, if you nail the throttle a lot, track or DD.
Love hard accelerations on the highway, twisties on country roads. Do a lot of lapping with the car too.

In the process of replacing my stock open 3.08 final drive to a 3.46 Quaife LSD.

Maybe R-compounds in a year or so.

Concerned with diff whine entering the cabin though. Can tolerate some noise, but minimal is best.
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