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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu flex fuel kit or jb4 when using e85:91 mix



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      11-12-2012, 10:03 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
It's interesting that you refer to it as the BMS flash conveniently leaving out the fact that you have to pay for a $800 Cobb AP in order to flash your DME.

Who's paying $800 for a COBB?? I got mine for $650 months ago & there are more floating around now since more people are trading in their N54 335's
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      11-12-2012, 10:28 PM   #24
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Who's paying $800 for a COBB?? I got mine for $650 months ago & there are more floating around now since more people are trading in their N54 335's
That's what you got out of my post, benzy?
Retail is $895
http://www.topgearsolutions.com/cobb...est-price.html
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      11-12-2012, 11:07 PM   #25
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Speak to Shiv man, he's probably sorted the issue out. Cool to see you're in Colorado, must be nice having a turbocharged car up there. When I lived there my naturally aspirated 6 cylinder Mazda 6 would huff and puff up the passes
Will do - I haven't wanted to bug them until I was closer to pulling the trigger (I'm also curious how it will work at altitude).

And I'm in the Springs. Having forced induction is a must - I had several NA E90 and E46s - I'm a firm believer in boost at altitude now. . And I remember our sig/avatar when the fires were going - it was pretty crazy, but was nice to see support from around the world

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      11-12-2012, 11:52 PM   #26
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Will do - I haven't wanted to bug them until I was closer to pulling the trigger (I'm also curious how it will work at altitude).

And I'm in the Springs. Having forced induction is a must - I had several NA E90 and E46s - I'm a firm believer in boost at altitude now. . And I remember our sig/avatar when the fires were going - it was pretty crazy, but was nice to see support from around the world

-Rich
Small world, I went to CC I was actually there about a month ago for my 5 year college reunion. I miss that place so much, but i think my lungs need a set of turbochargers now! I did the Incline in Manitou expecting it to be breeze, but it really took some work. While I was in College, i used to do it hungover on a pretty regular basis . Colorado really didn't have a very good summer with two major tragedies. I was actually sitting next to a woman on the flight back to Hong Kong that lost her house in the fire. Really put things in perspective, very very sad.

Good luck with your Flexfuel kit!
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      11-13-2012, 12:33 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
That's what you got out of my post, benzy?
Retail is $895
http://www.topgearsolutions.com/cobb...est-price.html
If you actually PM him, you will be surprised that he sells it for a lot less than retail. Nobody pays retail...
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      11-13-2012, 05:06 AM   #28
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The JB4 is held back by the OEM fuel table's (which means E30-E60 depending on the particular car) w/o their back-end flash and relies on simulated lamda feedback to adjust OL to keep target A/F ratio. The target boost is adjusted base on monitoring (but not adjusting) the ignition timing curve on cyl 1. IIRC, E85/91 octane + DCI put down about 420rwhp on a dynojet, below what Vishnu's flex-fueled vehicles are putting down with their ability to run higher ethanol content.

Both are safe, but the Vishnu is easiest because it's a set it, and forget method. The JB4 requires some monitoring every once in awhile, but I've set it and forget it for the past 4 months after finding a reliable E85 source. Auto adjustment on the JB4 only occurs in 3rd-4th gears between 4,000-6,000rpm at WOT, something that I recommend 10 mins after every fill-up if you decide to keep the JB4.

Poor some in the tank and enjoy, start off slow. From my testing w/o methanol:

E20 cleans up timing up to 14.5 psi
E30 cleans up timing up to 15.5 psi
E40 cleans up timing up to 16.5 psi
E50 cleans up timing up to 17.5 psi

Power from any up'd ethanol content will bring a smile to your face. Take your pic and don't make the decision get complicated, it's a very simple task, this is from an "experienced" E85 user.
Thanks for detailed info... With the e50 17.5 psi, are you regarding map 5?
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      11-13-2012, 05:12 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
No, the JB4 monitors timing advance and fuel trims and auto tunes itself when on E85. So you don't need to monitor anything. To run more than 50% E85 you normally also need the BMS flash which allows higher than OEM advance points and resolves the fuel trims issues.

Mike
So would you say running jb4 map 5 is just as good as using the Vishnu flex fuel kit? The one thing I like about jb4 is you don't need to send your dme to get it flashed.
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      11-13-2012, 06:15 AM   #30
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So would you say running jb4 map 5 is just as good as using the Vishnu flex fuel kit? The one thing I like about jb4 is you don't need to send your dme to get it flashed.
Both piggies are capable of running up to a 50% E85 mixture without any type of reflash or extra flex-fuel kit, it's recommended, but not required. Anything beyond that get's sketchy with fuel trims without some form of flash or ignition advance to take advantage of the extra power E85 can make. I've ran E60-E70 before but never sustained it for more than 100miles w/o a flash, but my LPFP/HPFP are healthy as can be.

Sorry if this thread got confusing for you from the amount of propaganda from inexperienced users going on in this thread.
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      11-13-2012, 06:24 AM   #31
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Thanks for detailed info... With the e50 17.5 psi, are you regarding map 5?
Yes map 5 should auto-adjust to 17.5 psi, but it depends on many things such as IAT's, outside temps (I've noticed fuel trims max out easier when it's colder), ignition timing curve, and the type of JB4 board you have.
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      11-13-2012, 07:01 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
It's interesting that you refer to it as the BMS flash conveniently leaving out the fact that you have to pay for a $800 Cobb AP in order to flash your DME.

Also, as Spool Twice mentioned, you can only set it and forget it if you have a steady supply of E85, if your fuel mix changes dramatically, well, you better be monitoring your data logs pretty carefully.
The file loaded to the DME is a flash map BMS has developed for use with the JB4 G5 ISO system. Right now the AP is the only platform that allows at home flash mapping so that is what they use to load it. Maybe some day some other cheaper option will exist. But for now that is all that is out to load those flash maps at home so that is why they support it. The AP device isn't very cheap but on the other hand it has a very good resale value so down the road when you turn the lease back in, etc, it's easy to resell it. All considered I think it's much better than shipping around DMEs, having down time, risking them getting damaged or lost, and not being able to have easy flash updates when new tables and tricks are added to the mix. You probably lose more in postage on your DME and a few days of car rental than the AP costs considering it's resale value.

Mike
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      11-13-2012, 11:31 AM   #33
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No, but I did talk to Terry over the weekend and although his solution works as designed, it's not able to maintain the volume demand that's required. I'm sure eventually Terry will find a solution, but I can tell you the FFTEC / Vishnu solution does the job. I'm still running my stock LPFP and didn't get any LPFP codes and my car was running 100% E85 over the weekend and putting down 422 rwhp and 448 ft/lbs on a Mustang Dyno. All in all that's good news for everyone who wants to run e85. Can't wait to see what upgraded turbos will put down, because RB's have a lot of room to grow with upgraded fueling and e85.

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Have you tried Terry's solution? I can't wait to see Vishnu's pump when it's released, I've been dying to go higher than E60 and still see safe trims
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      11-13-2012, 11:41 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spool twice View Post
Both piggies are capable of running up to a 50% E85 mixture without any type of reflash or extra flex-fuel kit, it's recommended, but not required. Anything beyond that get's sketchy with fuel trims without some form of flash or ignition advance to take advantage of the extra power E85 can make. I've ran E60-E70 before but never sustained it for more than 100miles w/o a flash, but my LPFP/HPFP are healthy as can be.

Sorry if this thread got confusing for you from the amount of propaganda from inexperienced users going on in this thread.
Thanks for all the info... Sometimes it's good to do research on the forums but at the same time, a lot of different information is thrown around.
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      11-13-2012, 11:45 AM   #35
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No, but I did talk to Terry over the weekend and although his solution works as designed, it's not able to maintain the volume demand that's required. I'm sure eventually Terry will find a solution, but I can tell you the FFTEC / Vishnu solution does the job. I'm still running my stock LPFP and didn't get any LPFP codes and my car was running 100% E85 over the weekend and putting down 422 rwhp and 448 ft/lbs on a Mustang Dyno. All in all that's good news for everyone who wants to run e85. Can't wait to see what upgraded turbos will put down, because RB's have a lot of room to grow with upgraded fueling and e85.
Damn, you are running 100% e85? And you had no codes and no problem when using the Vishnu flex fuel kit?
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      11-13-2012, 12:03 PM   #36
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My flex sensor showed 79% Ethanol. Prior to the pump install I would code after shifting to 4th at WOT. So after install I was launching in 3rd at the event and pulling through 3rd, 4th, and 5th trapping between 150 to 160 depending on traction and cross wind. So regardless of what tune you run, the pump will allow you to run 100% as long as you address the fuel trim issues with the DME.

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Damn, you are running 100% e85? And you had no codes and no problem when using the Vishnu flex fuel kit?
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      11-13-2012, 12:11 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
No, but I did talk to Terry over the weekend and although his solution works as designed, it's not able to maintain the volume demand that's required. I'm sure eventually Terry will find a solution, but I can tell you the FFTEC / Vishnu solution does the job. I'm still running my stock LPFP and didn't get any LPFP codes and my car was running 100% E85 over the weekend and putting down 422 rwhp and 448 ft/lbs on a Mustang Dyno. All in all that's good news for everyone who wants to run e85. Can't wait to see what upgraded turbos will put down, because RB's have a lot of room to grow with upgraded fueling and e85.
They are tuning E85 for RB turbos. Tuning for 520+whp is a bit different than stock turbos. I know they have made 500rw on E60 no meth but over that the high pressure fuel drop came back. I think they were running a richer AFR also for testing. So leaning it out would probably allow more power but their goal was to find the next limit so they could whittle away at it. The Walbro in tank pump is holding it's full 72psi to redline now where the OEM would fall below 50psi so it's a move in the right direction. They suspect there is some new limiting factor in the high pressure pump that needs to be addressed.

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      11-13-2012, 12:13 PM   #38
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My flex sensor showed 79% Ethanol. Prior to the pump install I would code after shifting to 4th at WOT. So after install I was launching in 3rd at the event and pulling through 3rd, 4th, and 5th trapping between 150 to 160 depending on traction and cross wind. So regardless of what tune you run, the pump will allow you to run 100% as long as you address the fuel trim issues with the DME.
That's a lot of ethanol! Is it safe to run that high even on flex fuel?
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      11-13-2012, 12:31 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
My flex sensor showed 79% Ethanol. Prior to the pump install I would code after shifting to 4th at WOT. So after install I was launching in 3rd at the event and pulling through 3rd, 4th, and 5th trapping between 150 to 160 depending on traction and cross wind. So regardless of what tune you run, the pump will allow you to run 100% as long as you address the fuel trim issues with the DME.
That's a lot of ethanol! Is it safe to run that high even on flex fuel?
With the flexfuel kit it's safe to run all the way up to 100%, just depends on whether or not your stock lpfp can handle it, when you upgrade the lpfp, 100% is a walk in the park for the car, no issues or hiccups, at least for me
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      11-13-2012, 12:37 PM   #40
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With the flexfuel kit it's safe to run all the way up to 100%, just depends on whether or not your stock lpfp can handle it, when you upgrade the lpfp, 100% is a walk in the park for the car, no issues or hiccups, at least for me
Do you have any gas stations that sell E100 though? E85 contains up to 85% ethanol, which obviously varies.
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      11-13-2012, 12:39 PM   #41
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Do you have any gas stations that sell E100 though? E85 contains up to 85% ethanol, which obviously varies.
You're right, I should have clarified, What I mean by 100% is my gas tank is 100% full of e85, with the sensor reading around 83% ethanol, I have yet to come across a station with e100
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      11-13-2012, 03:14 PM   #42
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I know Terry was talking like it could be a limit of the HPFP now, but I don't agree. I think FFTEC has the answer, but time will tell. I personally don't know all the details, but my car did very well running 100% e85 and my stock pump couldn't hang before.

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Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
They are tuning E85 for RB turbos. Tuning for 520+whp is a bit different than stock turbos. I know they have made 500rw on E60 no meth but over that the high pressure fuel drop came back. I think they were running a richer AFR also for testing. So leaning it out would probably allow more power but their goal was to find the next limit so they could whittle away at it. The Walbro in tank pump is holding it's full 72psi to redline now where the OEM would fall below 50psi so it's a move in the right direction. They suspect there is some new limiting factor in the high pressure pump that needs to be addressed.

Mike
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      11-13-2012, 03:16 PM   #43
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Well, so far so good. The engine loves e85 as long as you can live with the cold starts.

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That's a lot of ethanol! Is it safe to run that high even on flex fuel?
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      11-13-2012, 04:20 PM   #44
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I know Terry was talking like it could be a limit of the HPFP now, but I don't agree. I think FFTEC has the answer, but time will tell. I personally don't know all the details, but my car did very well running 100% e85 and my stock pump couldn't hang before.
Isn't Terry running 520+whp on E60? That is a lot more fuel than 420whp with stockers and 80% Ethanol. The low pressure was holding for him, it was the high pressure that was dipping. I don't understand how more low pressure could fix the issue if its already holding and high pressure is falling? Am I misunderstanding?
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