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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Vishnu flex fuel kit or jb4 when using e85:91 mix



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      11-13-2012, 04:37 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
I know Terry was talking like it could be a limit of the HPFP now, but I don't agree. I think FFTEC has the answer, but time will tell. I personally don't know all the details, but my car did very well running 100% e85 and my stock pump couldn't hang before.
Isn't Terry running 520+whp on E60? That is a lot more fuel than 420whp with stockers and 80% Ethanol. The low pressure was holding for him, it was the high pressure that was dipping. I don't understand how more low pressure could fix the issue if its already holding and high pressure is falling? Am I misunderstanding?
There is also the possibility that maybe his hpfp is on its way out, no?
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      11-13-2012, 06:22 PM   #46
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It should be noted that Mike is BMS' representative on this forum. He has a horse in the race despite the fact that he acts like a 3rd party retailer.

Firstly, let me address the issue that he brought up about the flash requiring constant updates. As I understand it, Vishnu's reflash simply allows the PROcede to do its job within a wider range of parameters. JB4 actually has to run more aggressive timing through the ATP flash because the G5 board cannot advance timing. That very fact alone means that their flash is more extensive and may require updating over time. This is likely not the case with the Vishnu flash, because updates will be delivered directly to the PROcede.

Secondly, Shiv could just have easily have used ATP to create his own flash too. He didn't because you cannot access all the tables required to get the most out of fueling and timing trims. For those of you who are crazy about squeezing every last bit of power of your car, this obviously makes a difference given that Wedge's stock turbo 335i was able to keep up with Terry's RB 135i at shift-sector.

Thirdly, let's do a little bit of math. I know the AP has good resale value, but I think most people are thinking about upfront costs when they purchase any performance modification.

Vishnu PROcede Rev2.5 - $495
Vishnu Flexfuel Kit w/ DME reflash - $795
Total: $1,290

JB4 G5 - $479
Cobb AP - $750-800?
Total: $1,229-1,279

One is a worry free, complete solution, the other is not and they cost almost the same! In fact, if you went the BMS way with Vishnu it would only cost you a little more than $700 (Rev2.5 + $99 flash + shipping DME)

If it was my money, I know what I would do.

Spool Twice - Perhaps you should look up the definition of propaganda. E90post accepts all points of view. The other forum that a number of you frequent shuts out contrarian perspectives. Talk about a vehicle for Propaganda. Unlike many of you, it doesn't bother me when you disagree with me. I appreciate it.
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      11-13-2012, 06:33 PM   #47
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Yeesh... that is an intense post... lol.

Up until 50% E85 the you can do tune only and they really don't require attention since they autotune. The JB4 is cheaper and seems to have more support for E85 specifically. Past 50% you need a flash too either BMS via Cobb or Flexfuel package from Vishnu. I don't think either needs more attention than the other since BMS handles the change in ethanol via autotuning and Vishnu does this using the sensor. I agree the sensor solution is more robust for heavy E85 mixes, but the JB4 seems to do just fine and is a cheaper and more developed alternative in the 50% and below range.
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      11-13-2012, 06:51 PM   #48
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Dude, the E85 sensor is more robust for heavy ethanol mixtures AND when there are sudden changes in fuel mixtures. It is a built in safety failsafe! If you forget to switch map when you fill up with 91, and gun it 15-20 minutes later, there is a very good chance you'll break something. I'm not sure why so many of you are ignoring this...
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      11-13-2012, 06:58 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
It should be noted that Mike is BMS' representative on this forum. He has a horse in the race despite the fact that he acts like a 3rd party retailer.

Firstly, let me address the issue that he brought up about the flash requiring constant updates. As I understand it, Vishnu's reflash simply allows the PROcede to do its job within a wider range of parameters. JB4 actually has to run more aggressive timing through the ATP flash because the G5 board cannot advance timing. That very fact alone means that their flash is more extensive and may require updating over time. This is likely not the case with the Vishnu flash, because updates will be delivered directly to the PROcede.

Secondly, Shiv could just have easily have used ATP to create his own flash too. He didn't because you cannot access all the tables required to get the most out of fueling and timing trims. For those of you who are crazy about squeezing every last bit of power of your car, this obviously makes a difference given that Wedge's stock turbo 335i was able to keep up with Terry's RB 135i at shift-sector.

Thirdly, let's do a little bit of math. I know the AP has good resale value, but I think most people are thinking about upfront costs when they purchase any performance modification.

Vishnu PROcede Rev2.5 - $495
Vishnu Flexfuel Kit w/ DME reflash - $795
Total: $1,290

JB4 G5 - $479
Cobb AP - $750-800?
Total: $1,229-1,279

One is a worry free, complete solution, the other is not and they cost almost the same! In fact, if you went the BMS way with Vishnu it would only cost you a little more than $700 (Rev2.5 + $99 flash + shipping DME)

If it was my money, I know what I would do.

Spool Twice - Perhaps you should look up the definition of propaganda. E90post accepts all points of view. The other forum that a number of you frequent shuts out contrarian perspectives. Talk about a vehicle for Propaganda. Unlike many of you, it doesn't bother me when you disagree with me. I appreciate it.
How do you factor in the cost of shipping your DME if you ever need warranty work done to the car?
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      11-13-2012, 07:10 PM   #50
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Well, that's 520 Dynojet, and my 422 Mustang is more like 480 to 500 Dynojet. I'll know the actual Dynojet numbers by the end of the week because I'm planning on going over to HPF to pull on their Dynojet. I already have delta pulls with them already from when I was stock so it will be good to see where I came from and where I'm at today.

So hp isn't the issue, it's peak torque when the duty cycle is the longest that the pressure will dip because the LPFP can't maintain the volume required for high ethanol content. Regardless, if you can't maintain the volume it doesn't matter what your pressure is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i View Post
Isn't Terry running 520+whp on E60? That is a lot more fuel than 420whp with stockers and 80% Ethanol. The low pressure was holding for him, it was the high pressure that was dipping. I don't understand how more low pressure could fix the issue if its already holding and high pressure is falling? Am I misunderstanding?
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      11-13-2012, 07:10 PM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomos319 View Post
How do you factor in the cost of shipping your DME if you ever need warranty work done to the car?
I really don't want to go over the same points over and over. The flash itself is not invasive, and leaves the DME serial unchanged. A dealership won't be able to detect that it's been altered. Apparently someone with an early version was having underboost issues when they completely removed their PROcede and flex fuel sensor, but I'm fairly certain Shiv has resolved that issue. Speak to him.
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      11-13-2012, 07:13 PM   #52
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The Vishnu DME flash is transparent to the dealer. Vishnu pulls your factory flash and making table changes so the flash serial is not changed. The only time you would need to send it back is if you let the dealer flash it back to factory stock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomos319 View Post
How do you factor in the cost of shipping your DME if you ever need warranty work done to the car?
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      11-13-2012, 07:17 PM   #53
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haha, didn't see your postback.

Just got my flash updated on Friday before Shift S3ctor and honestly I was shocked at how much power I put down on FFTEC's Mustang. After the open house and only getting 365 whp at that time, seeing 422 was off the charts. Even Terry questioned me as to why my tuner would give me a tune that makes more on stock turbos than he ever made. haha I had to laugh at Terry's logic. So if you have a JB4, don't worry... You'll never make more than Terry does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
I really don't want to go over the same points over and over. The flash itself is not invasive, and leaves the DME serial unchanged. A dealership won't be able to detect that it's been altered. Apparently someone with an early version was having underboost issues when they completely removed their PROcede and flex fuel sensor, but I'm fairly certain Shiv has resolved that issue. Speak to him.
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      11-13-2012, 07:22 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
So hp isn't the issue, it's peak torque when the duty cycle is the longest that the pressure will dip because the LPFP can't maintain the volume required for high ethanol content. Regardless, if you can't maintain the volume it doesn't matter what your pressure is.
Yeah, peak torque is usually around where the hpfp craps out... not the lpfp... the pressure and volume are linked in this case unless you are advising to run greater than stock pressure on the low side? What were your high and low pressures? With the Vishnu and the Walbro?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
haha, didn't see your postback.

Just got my flash updated on Friday before Shift S3ctor and honestly I was shocked at how much power I put down on FFTEC's Mustang. After the open house and only getting 365 whp at that time, seeing 422 was off the charts. Even Terry questioned me as to why my tuner would give me a tune that makes more on stock turbos than he ever made. haha I had to laugh at Terry's logic. So if you have a JB4, don't worry... You'll never make more than Terry does.
What's the delta? You are going off the dyno at the shop you got your tune?

A lot of hate in this thread. And misinformation...
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      11-13-2012, 07:22 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
Dude, the E85 sensor is more robust for heavy ethanol mixtures AND when there are sudden changes in fuel mixtures. It is a built in safety failsafe! If you forget to switch map when you fill up with 91, and gun it 15-20 minutes later, there is a very good chance you'll break something. I'm not sure why so many of you are ignoring this...
I have done this before multiple times. While I don't recommend it, you won't break anything. You will misfire and CEL though.
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      11-13-2012, 07:22 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dmacc View Post
There is also the possibility that maybe his hpfp is on its way out, no?
No, see my RB turbo dyno post. It has a log of E60 with and without meth flowing. When meth is flowing the high pressure pump is moving less volume and it's pressure stays above 15. When meth isn't flowing it drops to 9. During both runs low fuel pressure is on target. I know the JB4 outputs high and low fuel pressure in every log. I've never seen that data from the PROcede, can you flex fuel guys log high and low pressure for comparison? Especially at high power levels like 500rw+ on a dynojet.

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      11-13-2012, 07:28 PM   #57
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All this e85 talk has me all excited... till I realized there isn't a single drop of E anything in the state of CT.
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      11-13-2012, 07:48 PM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
haha, didn't see your postback.

Just got my flash updated on Friday before Shift S3ctor and honestly I was shocked at how much power I put down on FFTEC's Mustang. After the open house and only getting 365 whp at that time, seeing 422 was off the charts. Even Terry questioned me as to why my tuner would give me a tune that makes more on stock turbos than he ever made. haha I had to laugh at Terry's logic. So if you have a JB4, don't worry... You'll never make more than Terry does.
No worries, I can certainly use a little support in this thread
Congratulations on your ass kicking performance at shift sector. Really looking forward to seeing the videos.

Terry asked you why Shiv gave you a tune that makes more power than his now single turbo 335i did on stock turbos? What a legend.
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      11-13-2012, 07:55 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
I really don't want to go over the same points over and over. The flash itself is not invasive, and leaves the DME serial unchanged. A dealership won't be able to detect that it's been altered. Apparently someone with an early version was having underboost issues when they completely removed their PROcede and flex fuel sensor, but I'm fairly certain Shiv has resolved that issue. Speak to him.


I NEVER said "because the dealer can detect the flash"

The MOST CURRENT version of the DME flash LIMITS boost to 1-2 PSI when the proceed and/or FF sensor is not hooked up.

The dealer will notice that if they drive your car or check how much boost you are making.
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      11-13-2012, 07:59 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i View Post
I have done this before multiple times. While I don't recommend it, you won't break anything. You will misfire and CEL though.
That sounds healthy .

Look, how you treat your car is your decision. If you believe your car can take that kind of abuse repeatedly then all power to you.
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      11-13-2012, 08:08 PM   #61
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No, apparently adding pressure doesn't help. I had issues with my HPFP, had it replaced and then the LPFP couldn't keep up. After talking to a few people in the know, I waited to get the inline booster because just replacing the LPFP didn't fix the issue for others in the same boat.

If I remember correctly, map 0 was around 250 with DP and DCI, but that was when I pull the 365 with 91 pump and meth. That was at FFTEC and that's where Shiv tuned it after flashing it on Friday before Shift S3ctor.

I'm going over to HPF soon to dyno on their Dynojet. I have stock pulls on that dyno also so it will be good to see the difference. I also have COBB just down the street from me so I can pull up on their Mustang as well. Depends on if I can get Marv to go with me. He was going a few weeks ago and then didn't because of the weather.

I agree about the haters, but those are the people who don't know anything anyway. As far as I'm concerned they can just keep trolling without my reaction. Just a waste of time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ign335i View Post
Yeah, peak torque is usually around where the hpfp craps out... not the lpfp... the pressure and volume are linked in this case unless you are advising to run greater than stock pressure on the low side? What were your high and low pressures? With the Vishnu and the Walbro?




What's the delta? You are going off the dyno at the shop you got your tune?

A lot of hate in this thread. And misinformation...
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      11-13-2012, 08:09 PM   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by atomos319 View Post


I NEVER said "because the dealer can detect the flash"

The MOST CURRENT version of the DME flash LIMITS boost to 1-2 PSI when the proceed and/or FF sensor is not hooked up.

The dealer will notice that if they drive your car or check how much boost you are making.
I thought the issue has been resolved. Wedge has the most current flash, perhaps he can chime in? If I'm wrong, my bad and I apologize.
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      11-13-2012, 08:10 PM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
I thought the issue has been resolved. Wedge has the most current flash, perhaps he can chime in? If I'm wrong, my bad.
My understanding is that the most current flash limits boost, whereas the previous one actually gave slightly higher than stock boost
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      11-13-2012, 08:11 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
haha, didn't see your postback.

Just got my flash updated on Friday before Shift S3ctor and honestly I was shocked at how much power I put down on FFTEC's Mustang. After the open house and only getting 365 whp at that time, seeing 422 was off the charts. Even Terry questioned me as to why my tuner would give me a tune that makes more on stock turbos than he ever made. haha I had to laugh at Terry's logic. So if you have a JB4, don't worry... You'll never make more than Terry does.
To be honest 500rw sounds way out of line for stock turbos even with E85. Most guys make 430-450rw. Sick335 makes 500rw and he seemed to be pulling away from you very easily? Tuners always test everything first on their shop cars before sending them off to customers. It seems strange to me also your tune would make 50whp more than they did. Not trying to be a negative Nancy but as they say extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence right?

Mike
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      11-13-2012, 08:18 PM   #65
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Yeah, I couldn't believe what he said, but then again I don't blame him for questioning my numbers. No one really believed I pull 422 on a Mustang until they were looking at the back end of my car. I guess it's even harder for a tuner like Terry to believe considering the most they have seen on a Dynojet was about 450 with stock turbo's. E85 is no joke when it comes to making power. Can't wait to see what upgraded turbo's will end up making on e85. Should be sick numbers.

For everyone else, just wait on the pump from FFTEC. If you really want to run e85 and make good power don't waist your money and time upgrading your stock pump. Good thing is if your HPFP can't hang and you code, the dealer will replace it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
No worries, I can certainly use a little support in this thread
Congratulations on your ass kicking performance at shift sector. Really looking forward to seeing the videos.

Terry asked you why Shiv gave you a tune that makes more power than his now single turbo 335i did on stock turbos? What a legend.
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      11-13-2012, 08:39 PM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laguna Seca Blue View Post
It should be noted that Mike is BMS' representative on this forum. He has a horse in the race despite the fact that he acts like a 3rd party retailer.

Firstly, let me address the issue that he brought up about the flash requiring constant updates. As I understand it, Vishnu's reflash simply allows the PROcede to do its job within a wider range of parameters. JB4 actually has to run more aggressive timing through the ATP flash because the G5 board cannot advance timing. That very fact alone means that their flash is more extensive and may require updating over time. This is likely not the case with the Vishnu flash, because updates will be delivered directly to the PROcede.

Secondly, Shiv could just have easily have used ATP to create his own flash too. He didn't because you cannot access all the tables required to get the most out of fueling and timing trims. For those of you who are crazy about squeezing every last bit of power of your car, this obviously makes a difference given that Wedge's stock turbo 335i was able to keep up with Terry's RB 135i at shift-sector.

Thirdly, let's do a little bit of math. I know the AP has good resale value, but I think most people are thinking about upfront costs when they purchase any performance modification.

Vishnu PROcede Rev2.5 - $495
Vishnu Flexfuel Kit w/ DME reflash - $795
Total: $1,290

JB4 G5 - $479
Cobb AP - $750-800?
Total: $1,229-1,279

One is a worry free, complete solution, the other is not and they cost almost the same! In fact, if you went the BMS way with Vishnu it would only cost you a little more than $700 (Rev2.5 + $99 flash + shipping DME)

If it was my money, I know what I would do.

Spool Twice - Perhaps you should look up the definition of propaganda. E90post accepts all points of view. The other forum that a number of you frequent shuts out contrarian perspectives. Talk about a vehicle for Propaganda. Unlike many of you, it doesn't bother me when you disagree with me. I appreciate it.
Wow this is very informative. I know this info isn't towards my thread/question but it really helped me decide what's best.
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