[pgviper]

I understand that this has been going on for a while. However, it seems to me that all of the Jewish friends that I know are about to fly over to "support Israel". How is this conflict any different that any of the previous ones?

Also, seems as if the Palestinian death toll is about 8x the amount as the Israeli death toll from throughout the years. Palestine shot over missiles killing three and then Israel sent airstrikes into the Gaza Strip killing at least 19 Palestinians, including seven militants and 12 civilians, among them six children and a pregnant woman. Now Israel is calling for 30,000 troops to be recruited from the reserve to prepare for a ground battle. Is this really necessary? The Prime Minister of Israel is up for re-election in January, could this be a way of showing force in his last days before the election.

What should the United States position be on this conflict? Is there a line that should be drawn for whether we should step in or not? If we do, I feel that the whole region can sprial out of control considering Iran being a threat and the Syrian civil war taking place along with Egypt having a new leadership. Overall, I feel that the Prime Minister of Israel is being selfish in that Israel needs to steer away from a "get even" response and understand that whatever they do next will affect countries all over the world.

Thoughts?



*** I understand this conflict is extremely complicated, just trying to grasp what's going on and here other people's opinions.***

[mspeasl]

This mess has been going on since before the time of Christ and nothing will change it. Not us or anybody. Read your Bible it gives the low down on all of it.

[pgviper]

I am catholic and I do understand this. But things seem to be getting more intense than they usually are and with all of the volatile situations over there, it seems like it could become a huge mess very fast.

[hks786]

Violence will continue until Israel allows the state of Palestine to exist. If you look at the map over the last few decades you will see the land of Palestine decreasing and Israel growing over time. Gaza is the biggest concentration camp in the world.

[kmarei]

This conflict will never be resolved as long as th US blindly backs israel
Israel can pretty much do as it pleases, without worldwide condemnation
And if you so much as open your mouth about their actions
You are labeled as anti-Semitic and all hell breaks loose
Keep in mind that gaza is an occupied territory
It's a small area packed with millions of palestinians, it's actually one of the most densely populated areas on the planet
Ever hear of any pressure on Israel to give back the land they occupied?
No
All you hear about is "Israel, our biggest ally"
Please someone explain to me why it's your biggest ally
What was the last good thing Israel has done for the US

Another thing to think of
I'm sure you've heard of the whole fiscal cliff issues facing the US
Do you know what is the one thing that is EXEMPT from all spending cuts?
US aid to Israel
I'm shocked how that doesn't trouble US citizens?
So the federal government faces cuts to all departments, including the military
But no one can touch a dime going to israel

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by mspeasl

This mess has been going on since before the time of Christ and nothing will change it. Not us or anybody. Read your Bible it gives the low down on all of it.

I usually disagree with anything you say, but on this one we're on the same page. This is a fact of life. Cats and dogs, fire and gasoline, beer and liquor, sleeping pills and alcohol, Israelis and Muslims, they are all bad combinations. Best to avoid them all.

The real issue facing us now is the fiscal cliff. Please resolve that and then worry about stuff beyond our control.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by Templar

With every post you make, your ignorance astounds me more and more...

It isn't his ignorance that is astounding, it's yours. We blindly support Israeli actions that are taken right from the Nazi playbook. Perspective is everything.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by M_Six

It isn't his ignorance that is astounding, it's yours. We blindly support Israeli actions that are taken right from the Nazi playbook. Perspective is everything.

I deleted that post for a reason, so I won't go there. But if you think that our support of Israel is truly blind, you are definitely ignorant. There is a very real reason we support that country, and the administration is fully aware of that reason. Not that I necessarily agree with that reason at all... Saying our support is blind is not an accurate statement.

[OldArmy]

Originally Posted by pgviper

Also, seems as if the Palestinian death toll is about 8x the amount as the Israeli death toll....

Don't get upset because the Israeli's are better at killing. Hamas started this, they position their weapons in the middle of civilians to maximize collateral damage and casualties when the Israeli's strike back. And, since they started this one, no one should cry foul when the victim strikes back hard.


...that Israel needs to steer away from a "get even" response and understand that whatever they do next will affect countries all over the world.

Things have changed, the threat to Israel is greater now. No longer is there a relatively secure border with Egypt. No longer can they count on the United States--our weak and vacillating leadership has contributed mightily to this increasingly unstable situation. And Iran? Full speed ahead in developing weapons (and a declared willingness for first use) that actually do pose an existential threat to Israel. The Israelis may just be in a mood to bring this all to a conclusion on their own terms while they still can. Moderation and tit-for-tat responses may be a thing of the past.



*** I understand this conflict is extremely complicated...

Agree 100%, hopefully this won't go to a full scale conflagration.

[M_Six]

Originally Posted by Templar

I deleted that post for a reason, so I won't go there. But if you think that our support of Israel is truly blind, you are definitely ignorant. There is a very real reason we support that country, and the administration is fully aware of that reason. Not that I necessarily agree with that reason at all... Saying our support is blind is not an accurate statement.

You're correct, "blindly" was a poor choice of words. We are fully aware of the tactics Israel uses and we support them anyways, even though we condemn similar actions by other countries. That only makes it worse, though.

[Templar]

Originally Posted by M_Six

You're correct, "blindly" was a poor choice of words. We are fully aware of the tactics Israel uses and we support them anyways, even though we condemn similar actions by other countries. That only makes it worse, though.

Agreed. It's more like we look out the window, see what's going on, and just close the shutters.

[Team Plutonium]

A few critical points that I think often get glossed over in the discussion of Israel and its place in the Middle East:

1) There was a continuous presence of a Jewish community in what is now Israel. Prior to the declaration of the State, that community was small and mostly ultra-religious. But there was never a time in post-Biblical history that Jews did not live in Israel (despite multiple attempts by Roman, Assyrian, Persian, Christian, Ottoman, and Muslim empires to oust them).

2) The concept of Israel as a "safe haven" is entirely reasonable, considering the historical experience of the world Jewish community. While there have been other genocidal attempts, no religio-ethnic community has been so consistently and systematically disposessed from so many places on just about every contintent in the world.

3) Prior to the U.N. Partition Plan in 1947, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian People." The vast majority of people referred to as Palestinians are members of nomadic Jordanian tribes. In my opinion, the great error of the post-WWII Middle East international intervention was turning over Jordan to the Saudi royal family. The King of Jordan was not a Jordanian, and had little regard for Jordanian nomads. He was only too happy to volunteer them as poster children for the Arab League (because if they were trapped at the border in refugee camps, they wouldn't be prone to rioting over the usurper King in Amman). The Saudis wanted control of Jordan because it was their goal to control all three of the primary Muslim holy sites. They already had Mecca and Medina, the wanted to add Al-Quds (Jerusalem) to their trophy cabinet.

4) Everything that has happened in the Middle East since 1947, has been colored by #3. There was no legitimate reason why Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, et. al could not have absorbed any actual refugees in 1947. (Israelis and Israeli Arabs have worked together bettter than Jews and Arabs in any Arab country). But the Arab League, as a policy, rejected all refugees precisely because they wanted to use them as pawns to put pressure on Israel.

[mspeasl]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

A few critical points that I think often get glossed over in the discussion of Israel and its place in the Middle East:

1) There was a continuous presence of a Jewish community in what is now Israel. Prior to the declaration of the State, that community was small and mostly ultra-religious. But there was never a time in post-Biblical history that Jews did not live in Israel (despite multiple attempts by Roman, Assyrian, Persian, Christian, Ottoman, and Muslim empires to oust them).

2) The concept of Israel as a "safe haven" is entirely reasonable, considering the historical experience of the world Jewish community. While there have been other genocidal attempts, no religio-ethnic community has been so consistently and systematically disposessed from so many places on just about every contintent in the world.



3) Prior to the U.N. Partition Plan in 1947, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian People." The vast majority of people referred to as Palestinians are members of nomadic Jordanian tribes. In my opinion, the great error of the post-WWII Middle East international intervention was turning over Jordan to the Saudi royal family. The King of Jordan was not a Jordanian, and had little regard for Jordanian nomads. He was only too happy to volunteer them as poster children for the Arab League (because if they were trapped at the border in refugee camps, they wouldn't be prone to rioting over the usurper King in Amman). The Saudis wanted control of Jordan because it was their goal to control all three of the primary Muslim holy sites. They already had Mecca and Medina, the wanted to add Al-Quds (Jerusalem) to their trophy cabinet.

4) Everything that has happened in the Middle East since 1947, has been colored by #3. There was no legitimate reason why Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, et. al could not have absorbed any actual refugees in 1947. (Israelis and Israeli Arabs have worked together bettter than Jews and Arabs in any Arab country). But the Arab League, as a policy, rejected all refugees precisely because they wanted to use them as pawns to put pressure on Israel.

Very well stated.

[Fox128i]

Originally Posted by mspeasl

Very well stated.

X2. I totally agree.

[SfValley335i]

This weeks conflict was started when Israel killed a member of Hamas, Israel says hamas is a terrorist group but they were democratically elected...

No dead Hamas member then no bombings today. Simple, Israel started this crap for their own good, political or preparing for Iran, who knows.

muslims, christians and jews lived in this area for ages without much issue. Problems began when jews tried to create their own 'country' and in doing so they pushed out the muslims... In reaction to this happening for so long without resolve, muslims around the world hate jews and americans. Hate for americans for funding the jewish state. Hence this all helped create arab terrorist that came to america on 9/11.

Once this israel/palestine issue is solved then the worlds religious wars/problems would be solved.

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by SfValley335i

This weeks conflict was started when Israel killed a member of Hamas, Israel says hamas is a terrorist group but they were democratically elected...

No dead Hamas member then no bombings today. Simple, Israel started this crap for their own good, political or preparing for Iran, who knows.

muslims, christians and jews lived in this area for ages without much issue. Problems began when jews tried to create their own 'country' and in doing so they pushed out the muslims... In reaction to this happening for so long without resolve, muslims around the world hate jews and americans. Hate for americans for funding the jewish state. Hence this all helped create arab terrorist that came to america on 9/11.

Once this israel/palestine issue is solved then the worlds religious wars/problems would be solved.

Correct, they voted for Hamas, who was on the radio yesterday morning as the long-range rockets fell just outside of Jerusalem saying that their goal is to "liberate Palestine". They COULD have chosen peace, but they didn't. Israel may not be perfect in terms of their relationship with the Palestinians, but 60 years of running to bomb shelters and watching THEIR children be killed (although they tend not to shove the dead bodies in front of cameras with the abandon that the Palestinians do) will do that to a people. Moreover, as Golda Meir said, "we can forgive you for killing our children, we cannot forgive you for making us kill yours". The media tends to gloss over the fact that Israel puts up with vast numbers of Israeli deaths by rockets and suicide bombers before launching a retaliatory strike. When deciding whether Israel is "Justified" or not in terms of it's military operations, try to imagine what the US would do if faced with the same behavior from Canada or Mexico. Just how many rockets would have to land in the US before it launched a massive strike against the offending country?

The vast majority of so-called Palestinians should have been repatriated to Jordan or Egypt some 45 years ago. But their home nations chose to use them as pawns in a geopolitical game. It is fundamentally unfair to make that Israel's problem, but that's what's been done. Jordan and Egypt don't want them NOW, because their numbers have grown over 2-3 generations and they've been radicalized by their living conditions. But, realistically and reasonably, who should be absorbing these refugees? It's not for lack of capacity that Jordan and Egypt won't take them back. They pulled the pin on a grenade in 1947, and are afraid they can't put that pin back in before the grenade explodes.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

A few critical points that I think often get glossed over in the discussion of Israel and its place in the Middle East:

1) There was a continuous presence of a Jewish community in what is now Israel. Prior to the declaration of the State, that community was small and mostly ultra-religious. But there was never a time in post-Biblical history that Jews did not live in Israel (despite multiple attempts by Roman, Assyrian, Persian, Christian, Ottoman, and Muslim empires to oust them).

2) The concept of Israel as a "safe haven" is entirely reasonable, considering the historical experience of the world Jewish community. While there have been other genocidal attempts, no religio-ethnic community has been so consistently and systematically disposessed from so many places on just about every contintent in the world.

3) Prior to the U.N. Partition Plan in 1947, there was no such thing as a "Palestinian People." The vast majority of people referred to as Palestinians are members of nomadic Jordanian tribes. In my opinion, the great error of the post-WWII Middle East international intervention was turning over Jordan to the Saudi royal family. The King of Jordan was not a Jordanian, and had little regard for Jordanian nomads. He was only too happy to volunteer them as poster children for the Arab League (because if they were trapped at the border in refugee camps, they wouldn't be prone to rioting over the usurper King in Amman). The Saudis wanted control of Jordan because it was their goal to control all three of the primary Muslim holy sites. They already had Mecca and Medina, the wanted to add Al-Quds (Jerusalem) to their trophy cabinet.

4) Everything that has happened in the Middle East since 1947, has been colored by #3. There was no legitimate reason why Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, et. al could not have absorbed any actual refugees in 1947. (Israelis and Israeli Arabs have worked together bettter than Jews and Arabs in any Arab country). But the Arab League, as a policy, rejected all refugees precisely because they wanted to use them as pawns to put pressure on Israel.

Wow
Never thought I'd find so many things I disagree on in only 1 post

1) yes the Jews were always there, just like they've been in most countries in Europe
That doesn't mean they get to take over the entire country and kick its inhabitants out.
And the Arabs also loved there, so why do you find it rightfully jewish, but not rightfully Arab?

2) How would you feel if we offered the USA as a safe haven to all the American Indians? I mean they we're here first no?


3) utter rubbish
The entire population of the Arab world consisted of nomadic tribes
So you think nomadic tribes are not good enough to warrant a country?
The fact is, find any map of the area prior to the creation os Israel
That area is called Palestine
Whether you like it or not, that's what the entire world referred to it as

4) how shocking
The Arab governments did not welcome the new state that was created in place if an existing state? How rude of them!

Here is a picture to show what's happened in the past 64 years
Try to be objective and tell me which party has done more damage
And this also shows why the Israelis have no desire to achieve peace at all
In about 10 more years there won't be any more areas controlled by the palestinians and they won't have to worry about the 2 state solution, because one of them will be killed

[Team Plutonium]

To be fair and balanced, I'm not excusing some of the choices that Israel has made with regard to the way it has treated refugees. But I think they've done better than just about any other country in the world when faced with this sort of problem. Can you think of any other country in the world EVER that repelled its attackers in a defensive war, captured large a,punts of territory, and then GAVE IT BACK in order to facilitate a peace agreement? That's what Israel did with the Sinai. The Egyptians could have absorbed a large number of refugees then. Instead, they created more, by pushing refugees who had been living in Israel-controlled Sinai into Gaza.

Again, my rants against the behavior of the arab countries /palestinians is in no way an excuse for behavior on the part of the Israelis that violates the Geneva Convention, but it sure is an explanation. When I lived in Israel, everyone stopped what they were doing for 30 seconds at the top of every hour to hear the news on whatever radio or TV was on, not to hear the latest sex scandal, but to see where/if the rockets were falling. To do that day in and day out for more than half a century has to take a toll on the psyche of both an individual and a people. Remember, all they have to do is say, "OK, we will stop trying to destroy you", and then ACTUALLY STOP. It won Arafat a Nobel Peace Prize.

[kmarei]

Originally Posted by Team Plutonium

Correct, they voted for Hamas, who was on the radio yesterday morning as the long-range rockets fell just outside of Jerusalem saying that their goal is to "liberate Palestine". They COULD have chosen peace, but they didn't. Israel may not be perfect in terms of their relationship with the Palestinians, but 60 years of running to bomb shelters and watching THEIR children be killed (although they tend not to shove the dead bodies in front of cameras with the abandon that the Palestinians do) will do that to a people. Moreover, as Golda Meir said, "we can forgive you for killing our children, we cannot forgive you for making us kill yours". The media tends to gloss over the fact that Israel puts up with vast numbers of Israeli deaths by rockets and suicide bombers before launching a retaliatory strike. When deciding whether Israel is "Justified" or not in terms of it's military operations, try to imagine what the US would do if faced with the same behavior from Canada or Mexico. Just how many rockets would have to land in the US before it launched a massive strike against the offending country?

The vast majority of so-called Palestinians should have been repatriated to Jordan or Egypt some 45 years ago. But their home nations chose to use them as pawns in a geopolitical game. It is fundamentally unfair to make that Israel's problem, but that's what's been done. Jordan and Egypt don't want them NOW, because their numbers have grown over 2-3 generations and they've been radicalized by their living conditions. But, realistically and reasonably, who should be absorbing these refugees? It's not for lack of capacity that Jordan and Egypt won't take them back. They pulled the pin on a grenade in 1947, and are afraid they can't put that pin back in before the grenade explodes.

Only thing is
The borders of the US are agreed upon by the entire world
The borders of Israel are considered illegal by the UN
And they are occupied territories
The actual legal area of Israel is much smaller than what you see on the map now
But when Iraq invaded Kuwait
All hell broke loose
Well Israel invaded areas that used to belong to other countries
But that's ok cuz we feel bad for the Jews, so we'll just turn our heads

[kmarei]

Until the Israelis give the Palestinians the right to their own country
They will never live in peace
You can't expect peace when you are occupying the land of someone else
How peaceful would you be if someone walked into your house and called it his. Because he used to live there earlier?

[Team Plutonium]

Originally Posted by kmarei

Until the Israelis give the Palestinians the right to their own country
They will never live in peace
You can't expect peace when you are occupying the land of someone else
How peaceful would you be if someone walked into your house and called it his. Because he used to live there earlier?

Palestinians would first need to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, which seems to be the real hold up to a two-state solution (which the Israelis have, frankly, been quite generous to offer, considering the history).

[Fox128i]

I hate to sound cynical here, but for many there can be no peace until the last Jew is out Israel/Palestine. There are those that hate and despise them for no other reason than the fact that they are Jewish.