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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N57 / M57 Turbo Diesel Discussions - 335d > Carbon build up! Here is how to stop it!



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      11-25-2012, 08:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
http://www.edmunds.com/autoobserver-...-adopters.html

This is a good read on the carbon issue with direct injected engines.
Good read. Thanks for the link. It is interesting to see that (outside of engine design). The main semi-controllable items which they site are injection event timing and gas return design. These seem to be two that we might be able to tackle.

It makes me wonder what the engines look like for those who have an aftermarket tune (non-piggyback). If one of these tunes not only increases power initially but also holds off degradation it could be a major winner.
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      11-25-2012, 09:41 PM   #24
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I bougth my 335d a month ago. Very happy. I mean, extremelly hapy. Car is a beast. One of the last brought into US and produced in Aug2011.
5100mi, cold weather, premium,convenience
deep blue ext/black oyster interior.


I am sure BMW became aware long ago of the issue you guys are reporting on the posts above. Considering the M57 powerplant has been available in Europe since 1998, this engine has certainly gone through multiple cycles of debugging and improvements since then. We should not consider the engine (or the application) to be flawed conceptually on its design. Hardware in Europe is the same as in US. And in Europe the engine is calibrated to generate even more horsepower, 286 vs 265. To say the engine is not demanded on E90 application and this being the cause for the problem is a very grosse especulation. Why the more powerful version of the E9x family in Europe survives w/o carbon build up?

Now in reality, the variable added for our cars is the diesel fuel in North America. And for that BMW was required to develop a specific control module software. This software is different on every application hence issues building on the 335d but not on the X5d in US.

My car is listed for the 'emissions recall' - software upgrade. I am yet to schedule the service but tried to get additional information on exactly what is being addressed by the recall. No information is disclosed by dealers what is unusual. Recalls are public and normally well publicized as required by law when end users are exposed to risks while using the product.

However all indications are that this is what is known as a 'white recall' . And these do not require public disclosure as the end user is not exposed to any risk.

White recalls are 'damage control' measures that a manufacturer executes
to avoid extended maintenance costs and consequent brand image degradation.
This is probably what BMW is doing.

The million dollar question is: whatever changes are done to the 335d sw, do they fix the issue?

As I get additional exposure to this matter , i will post here.
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      11-25-2012, 09:56 PM   #25
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Why drive hard when you can just hook up a camper like this guy:



But seriously, drive it hard all the time and you might blow something else like an injector.
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      11-25-2012, 10:02 PM   #26
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The engine itself might be the same as in Europe but the emissions controls to meet US requirements is all new. It is the added emissions contol that are causing these issues. The good news (if there is any) is the european emissions requirements will soon be about the same as the US. So in a way we helped BMW debug these systems for the european market.
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      11-25-2012, 11:00 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbsilver View Post
The engine itself might be the same as in Europe but the emissions controls to meet US requirements is all new. It is the added emissions contol that are causing these issues. The good news (if there is any) is the european emissions requirements will soon be about the same as the US. So in a way we helped BMW debug these systems for the european market.
KB, I do not disagree with your input. Couple of comments on it:
Emission regulations US and Europe are not comparable. Engine cycles are different, fuels are different, test requirements are different, vehicle classes definition are different.
Now, technology to control emissions is marching in paralell as all companies are global and exposed to both markets.

The challenge is not achieve the emissions standards or fuel consumption targets, it is to get there at a cost the market will digest.
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      11-26-2012, 08:39 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimodem View Post
Why drive hard when you can just hook up a camper like this guy:


FANTASTIC!
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      11-26-2012, 09:29 AM   #29
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Hi Guys
I live in Europe and have a E91 330d. Here we also have carbon buildup in the engines.
Well, maybe not in the engine itself, but in the intake manifold. Partly because of the Carbon build up the problem with the swirl flaps was present on the first generations of the M57 engine producing 204hp here in europe. My first E46 330d was the first generation without the swirl flaps. On that model the turbo was known to last for approx. 250.000km and then had to be changed. Mine lasted 302.000km.

On my E91 I have resently had to get the inlet manifold changed as a precaution to the swirlflaps falling off and getting into the engine because of carbon buildup around the flaps. I saw my manifold and the carbon inside it was not that bad.
I have seen and heard of others who mostly drive in the city and drive short trips where the engine actually brakes down and has to be changed after only 30.000km. That was not BMW's though.
Injectors does not last more that about 200.000km, sometimes less.
Properbly because I drive a lot of highway in my approx 50-55.000km a year. And almost every time i'm there I run at everything between 130km/h to 200-240km/h depending on the traffic and who I meet on the way that wanna play ;-)
In that perspective I agree....floor it and the carbon buildup will be less than it will be if you just drive to the local backery every sunday morning and back.....
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      11-26-2012, 10:10 AM   #30
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How often should we FLOOR IT? And I realize the correct answer should be - as often as possible! Which is the case for me, but I take it easy in the cold months, as I run summer tires / only drive the car sparingly.
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      11-26-2012, 11:03 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryebread
How often should we FLOOR IT? And I realize the correct answer should be - as often as possible! Which is the case for me, but I take it easy in the cold months, as I run summer tires / only drive the car sparingly.
Floor it every time you enter highway. A few more times to pass a few people on the highway
Do not floor it in the city because you will only put more miles to the shoes and brakes!
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      11-26-2012, 01:41 PM   #32
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Saw that comin!!
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      11-26-2012, 01:54 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimodem View Post
Why drive hard when you can just hook up a camper like this guy:



But seriously, drive it hard all the time and you might blow something else like an injector.
I'm just going to do some chassis reinforcement and start towing the wife's x5 everywhere. That should add a bit of load :-)
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      11-26-2012, 02:29 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FormerRotor
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quasimodem View Post
Why drive hard when you can just hook up a camper like this guy:



But seriously, drive it hard all the time and you might blow something else like an injector.
I'm just going to do some chassis reinforcement and start towing the wife's x5 everywhere. That should add a bit of load :-)
lol
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      11-26-2012, 03:17 PM   #35
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I'm not trying to start an argument but I don't agree with the flooring part. I'm on my third head replacement and I floor my 335D all the time. Wouldn't the lower cetane cause more carbon to build up? I understand the EGR closes at WOT but lets be realistic you are not driving WOT all the time.

My wife drives the x5D and it has had NO issues. She drives normal.

Unless there's a solution to this issue I will be selling this car in the next few months. I would be willing to keep this car if there was a service manual available showing how to take the damn thing apart. I talked to bentley and they have no plans on writing up anything for the N57.
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      11-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elester12
I'm not trying to start an argument but I don't agree with the flooring part. I'm on my third head replacement and I floor my 335D all the time. Wouldn't the lower cetane cause more carbon to build up? I understand the EGR closes at WOT but lets be realistic you are not driving WOT all the time.

My wife drives the x5D and it has had NO issues. She drives normal.

Unless there's a solution to this issue I will be selling this car in the next few months. I would be willing to keep this car if there was a service manual available showing how to take the damn thing apart. I talked to bentley and they have no plans on writing up anything for the N57.
JBD it!
It Will help in some way by increasing fuel therefore putting more loads !
As for low cetane fuel! I just bought a stage 3 snow performance that I will mix 50/50 and bought a secondary 5 micron fuel filter with a built in water separator and a heater too !
I will add a secondary oil filter 1 micron as well too!
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      11-26-2012, 03:37 PM   #37
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Next is to remove DPF/ urea/ EGR delete!
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      11-26-2012, 04:05 PM   #38
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My question in post #20 has not been answered by the OP. So do we have a 100.000 km (mls?, in one year? second hand?) engine really without soot build up, or a wrong diagnostic?

This is not model/engine specific. Diesel engines with EGR recirculate particulate matter (soot) back to the intake. As some have indicated, that is based on a steady state map. If you accelerate above a certain minimum rate (which is really low), EGR is cut off. Also EGR is cut off when outside the emissions box (eg where they measure emissions, or on a EPA cycle where it has little impact on the total). On my 320d that steady state limit is at 2390 rpm in 6th, or about 85kph indicated. Above that 85 kph level road there is no more EGR requested. So that has been my cruising speed. On a 330d/335d, I'd expect that rpm to be higher as you'll have less load on the engine. I do 90% highway. And even with that my intake system is not very clean. I've an ODB reader showing EGR position.

The EGR recirculates dry soot. It comes out of the engine, pre turbo, at 500C or so. That has to be bone dry. So it leaves a dry, powdery coating. The problem starts on the back side of the throttle valve, where this dry stuff mixes with intake air containing oil from the breather.

Oil Catch Cans...certainly a move in the right direction but I have my doubts. Search for "coalescing filters". A bit of wire mesh in a coffee cup sized tin is miles away from where the heavy duty truck industry is moving. And there is flow restriction, too much restriction and these won't flow. Great from no oil carry over perspective. Not so great from a oil perspective, where the water vapours etc can't escape.

I'm running a coalescing filter given to me, stuck in a housing made from diy shop bits.The filter element is I think 4" dia, 8" long. Last time i took it apart it was black on the outside, oil on the bottom, and as new on the inside after at least 20k mls.

And here's the info from Pierburg, you might recognize the components under the hood, as Pierburg supplies BMW and many others. It shows the basic chart where EGR is in operation.
Attached Images
File Type: pdf pierburg egr.pdf (916.4 KB, 1307 views)
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      11-26-2012, 07:07 PM   #39
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Has anyone spent any time consulting with a rep from BMW NA? It sounds like a serious matter. We paid a premium for the D. We deserve a car that will last.
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      11-26-2012, 07:42 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryebread View Post
Has anyone spent any time consulting with a rep from BMW NA? It sounds like a serious matter. We paid a premium for the D. We deserve a car that will last.
I wrote BMW Group to include contacting them on Facebook. I included links to several threads regarding the issue. They forwarded my inquiry to BMW NA, which sent me a canned response to which I responded reiterating this is NOT an isolated problem as they would like everyone to believe.

I would encourage anyone and everyone that's had a problem or concerned about this problem to contact BMW Group - forget BMW NA let BMW Group direct your inquiry to BMW NA, put the mother ship on notice!




Thank you for contacting BMW of North America, LLC regarding your concerns with your 2011 BMW 335d.

Please be assured the quality of our vehicles receives our constant attention, nevertheless, despite our best efforts, a problem may occur with a particular vehicle or component. We appreciate your feedback on this vehicle, and will use your comments to improve our future models.

Should you have specific questions regarding your vehicle, we suggest talking to the service team at your local BMW center. A list of our authorized BMW centers categorized by name, state or ZIP Code can be found on our website at: www.bmwusa.com, under “Dealer Locator.”

For any non-technical inquiries, you can contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117, Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time.

Sincerely,

Emily Dunn
Customer Relations and Services
Representative

-----Original Message-----

From: bmwgroup.customerservice@bmwgroup.com
Sent: 11/26/2012 12:00:00 AM
To: bmwagcom <BMWAGCOM@bmwusa.com>
Subject: General Contact Form - Anfrage von Christopher

Dear colleagues,

please find enclosed the customer's complaint.

Best regards,
BMW Group Customer Service Team

################################################## ###########

------------------------------------------------------------------
Bayerische Motoren Werke Aktiengesellschaft
Board of Management: Norbert Reithofer, Chairman,
Frank-Peter Arndt, Milagros Caiña Carreiro-Andree,
Herbert Diess, Klaus Draeger, Friedrich Eichiner,
Harald Krueger, Ian Robertson
Chairman of the Supervisory Board: Joachim Milberg
Registered in: Munich HRB 42243
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      11-26-2012, 09:49 PM   #41
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Has anyone spent any time consulting with a rep from BMW NA? It sounds like a serious matter. We paid a premium for the D. We deserve a car that will last.
Wouldn't call it serious but could be of concern for those who drive city most of the time.
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      11-26-2012, 11:56 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cssnms View Post
Should you have specific questions regarding your vehicle, we suggest talking to the service team at your local BMW center. A list of our authorized BMW centers categorized by name, state or ZIP Code can be found on our website at: www.bmwusa.com, under “Dealer Locator.”

For any non-technical inquiries, you can contact the Customer Relations and Services Department at 1-800-831-1117, Monday through Friday from 9:00 A.M. to 9:00 P.M., Eastern Standard Time.

Sincerely,

Emily Dunn
Customer Relations and Services
Representative
FYI, I discussed carbon buildup with my service team leader today in the course of a broader conversation. His response what that while he had seen carbon issues on a number of BMW engines (as Lexus, Audi, etc), he has not yet heard of any on the d. He did go on to say, however, that the problem usually rears its head in the gas vehicles after around 75k, but he does not have many diesel service clients with that kind of mileage. He suggested that i stay on top of oil changes and do what I can to fill up with the cleanest fuel possible.

Off the record, he unofficially recommended that--if it is a personal concern to me--i investigate possible additive options (although he felt that the success thereof may be limited by the direct injection design).
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      11-27-2012, 12:01 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jffeijao View Post
I bougth my 335d a month ago. Very happy. I mean, extremelly hapy. Car is a beast. One of the last brought into US and produced in Aug2011.
5100mi, cold weather, premium,convenience
deep blue ext/black oyster interior.
...
However all indications are that this is what is known as a 'white recall' . And these do not require public disclosure as the end user is not exposed to any risk.

White recalls are 'damage control' measures that a manufacturer executes
to avoid extended maintenance costs and consequent brand image degradation.
This is probably what BMW is doing.

The million dollar question is: whatever changes are done to the 335d sw, do they fix the issue?

As I get additional exposure to this matter , i will post here.
Jffeijao, welcome. Glad to have you on our side. From the sound of your post, im thinking you will be another strong addition to the community.

Btw I love that interior/exterior combo.
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      11-27-2012, 07:20 AM   #44
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Jffeijao, welcome. Glad to have you on our side. From the sound of your post, im thinking you will be another strong addition to the community.

Btw I love that interior/exterior combo.
Tks FormerRotor.
I am learning with you guys and will be very happy to contribute.
As we may all be somewhat concerned with the 'carbon build up' issue, the best we can do is get educated on the matter and do the right thing.

There is no vehicle model without issues. Onwers/market realize just some of them, depending on how 'intrusive' they are.
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