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      11-27-2012, 11:12 AM   #1
Boz335i
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My track comparison - 335i vs M3

E92 335i DCT (JB4, DCI, Performance exhaust, Eibach prokit) 370+bhp 430 ft/lb torque vs E92 M3 DCT with EDC/Competition pack 414bhp

Silverstone full GP circuit track day 23rd Nov 12 (My 1st track day)

Having never been in the position to have an opinion comparing the 335i against the M3 before, I thought I'd share my thoughts with others for anybody interested. Sorry if it goes on a bit.

At this point I will say that I'm sure that I never really explored the full potential of the cars abilities. I bought the car after seeing the Fifth gear shootout between the 335i SE and the S5 and the way Vicky B-H drove the 335i was much more aggressive than I can drive. I never take the car over 6000 rpm and I don't really throw it around corners.

After doing about 8 laps of the track in my 335i, I found that the car held up really well. The track was a bit damp early on and the car was a bit tail happy at times, but great fun. I found that my car could just about outdrag most of the cars on the straight, V8 M3s, 911's etc. The straight six with the performance exhaust sounded great when pushed. The DCT was just perfect on the track.
But then the corners came and coupled with my crap driving skills and my nervousness, I was soon overtaken as my exit speeds were quite low compared to others, then the frustrating bit was that I was generally holding back on the straights as I didn't want to overtake, as I'd be in the same position again at the next set of bends.
I was on a new set of Vredestein Sessantas, and although I think they are great for day to day driving, they're not really that good on the track.

Dan from M3 cutters forum then kindly offered for me to ride as a passenger for a few laps in his M3, how could I refuse! What a great bloke.
He was running on a set of Michelin pilot sports, which I know from my last car are very good on a track.

Anyway, off we went in a car that is designed for the track, first set of bends, I thought he should be slowing down by now, but no! Fuck me!! he was really throwing this car around, he is taking what I thought were diabolical liberties with speeds around bends, not the perfect line at times, but the car is so forgiving, it just takes it in its stride.
It didn't seem to matter whether it's damp or not, it just grips so well around the bends, the car starts to slide, but he just controls the drift really well due to the LSD, then the V8 just pulls the car around the corner. If I took my car around corners at this speed, I'm almost certain that I'd have been in the barriers by now. The power delivery was very smooth and the noise from the V8 at full chat, coupled with the blips from the DCT was sublime. Apparently it's louder in the passenger seat, so I was hearing it louder than the driver (I presume it's designed that way for LHD cars).
After a few laps the brakes started to fade quite badly, so we came in (brakes could be a bit better on a track car).

Now I get what the M3 is about, straight away I thought I'm going to buy one of these. Later my head took over and I thought, will it be worth getting lower than the current 18 mpg I get with mine, paying double for servicing, extended warranty etc, probably not? It's ability would probably be wasted on me. I only do 2000 miles a year and I can't drive the car like that on a daily basis. If I become a better track driver, then I'm getting one for sure. When I told my wife about it, she said why don't you treat yourself, so who knows

Maybe not the best of comparisons as I only drove my car and the M3 driver was a better driver than me.
It would be nice to go around the track with Lars (335Rocks) in his modified 335i to see how it compares (better driver than me/BBK/suspension etc.)
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      11-27-2012, 11:39 AM   #2
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First dibs on your 335i!!
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      11-27-2012, 11:52 AM   #3
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The M3 does feel special in every day driving though mate, even going slowly.
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      11-27-2012, 12:35 PM   #4
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+1 what he said ^^

Also, bare in mind the M3 is not a dedicated track car. If it were it would be way to harsh for daily driving.

And The brakes have always been a weak link on the M's. easily fixed though.

2k miles a year? lol Mate thats ridiculously perfect for owning such a car. Just think if you only do such miles, why not truly enjoy every single one of them?
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      11-27-2012, 12:36 PM   #5
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Nice report!
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      11-27-2012, 12:48 PM   #6
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Good read, keep the 335i and buy Cliosport for the track
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      11-27-2012, 01:45 PM   #7
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Hi Boz,

I don't drive mine much slower on the road, and you can see from my fuelly link that I'm getting 19 ish too, not making it any easier for you am I ?

It was good to chat and glad you liked the pax laps

I've been looking at better brakes, the engine feels unburstable and the chassis is great but 10 mins of that and they were grumbling badly,

I had e91 330d and 335is then an Audi S4 mapped and pulley changed to 420 and nothing feels the same as the M3, and only the 330d did better than 20mpg

And you've now got the green light at home too....

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      11-28-2012, 05:22 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by De30m View Post
Hi Boz,

I don't drive mine much slower on the road, and you can see from my fuelly link that I'm getting 19 ish too, not making it any easier for you am I ?

It was good to chat and glad you liked the pax laps

I've been looking at better brakes, the engine feels unburstable and the chassis is great but 10 mins of that and they were grumbling badly,

I had e91 330d and 335is then an Audi S4 mapped and pulley changed to 420 and nothing feels the same as the M3, and only the 330d did better than 20mpg

And you've now got the green light at home too....

Dan (DMM3)
Hi Dan,

I think I'll get through the winter, then start looking around when the weather improves. 19mpg is impressive, on par with mine.

I knew I shouldn't have got in your car, glad I did though
It does have a proper sports car feel to it.

After driving DCT, it'll have to be DCT again, so will narrow my options down (Phil, I'll let you know if I find something)

I wasn't going to do it, but after the comments on here I'm very tempted.
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      11-28-2012, 05:45 AM   #9
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The 335i is a fantastic car and I'd have another in a heartbeat (would change the run flats). But you can throw as much power and performance goodies at it and one, but it will never feel the same as the M3.
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      11-28-2012, 05:50 AM   #10
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Boz -

Equally Tony (E92fan) took me round donnington in his 335i, and fook me, he was driving it like your mate in the M3 seems to (or faster)

Speeds I could never dream of into corners, clipping apex's and curbs, controlling/fighting the drift on the way out of corners, using all the track and his car just went.

Flat into Craner curves made me want to puke, I was lifted out of my seat he dropped down them so fast.

He had an AP BBK too, so I had seatbelt marks on my chest from the ferocity of the brakes - any they never faded.

You need to get someone to take you out in your own car by the sounds of it - you'll be suprised
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      11-28-2012, 06:36 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Boz -

Equally Tony (E92fan) took me round donnington in his 335i, and fook me, he was driving it like your mate in the M3 seems to (or faster)

Speeds I could never dream of into corners, clipping apex's and curbs, controlling/fighting the drift on the way out of corners, using all the track and his car just went.

Flat into Craner curves made me want to puke, I was lifted out of my seat he dropped down them so fast.

He had an AP BBK too, so I had seatbelt marks on my chest from the ferocity of the brakes - any they never faded.

You need to get someone to take you out in your own car by the sounds of it - you'll be suprised
Cheers for that. I do suspect that I need to experience my car with a good driver. I've seen a couple of video clips of the 335i being driven like that around a track and it looks amazing.
I need to try a track like Bedford, so that if I make a mistake then there will be huge run-offs.

Do you know which setting Tony was using on the traction control.
off so the DTC light comes on, or fully off? And has he got an LSD?

BTW - your mods list looks amazing!
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      11-28-2012, 07:55 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
E92 335i DCT (JB4, DCI, Performance exhaust, Eibach prokit) 370+bhp 430 ft/lb torque vs E92 M3 DCT with EDC/Competition pack 414bhp

Silverstone full GP circuit track day 23rd Nov 12 (My 1st track day)

Having never been in the position to have an opinion comparing the 335i against the M3 before, I thought I'd share my thoughts with others for anybody interested. Sorry if it goes on a bit.

At this point I will say that I'm sure that I never really explored the full potential of the cars abilities. I bought the car after seeing the Fifth gear shootout between the 335i SE and the S5 and the way Vicky B-H drove the 335i was much more aggressive than I can drive. I never take the car over 6000 rpm and I don't really throw it around corners.

After doing about 8 laps of the track in my 335i, I found that the car held up really well. The track was a bit damp early on and the car was a bit tail happy at times, but great fun. I found that my car could just about outdrag most of the cars on the straight, V8 M3s, 911's etc. The straight six with the performance exhaust sounded great when pushed. The DCT was just perfect on the track.
But then the corners came and coupled with my crap driving skills and my nervousness, I was soon overtaken as my exit speeds were quite low compared to others, then the frustrating bit was that I was generally holding back on the straights as I didn't want to overtake, as I'd be in the same position again at the next set of bends.
I was on a new set of Vredestein Sessantas, and although I think they are great for day to day driving, they're not really that good on the track.

Dan from M3 cutters forum then kindly offered for me to ride as a passenger for a few laps in his M3, how could I refuse! What a great bloke.
He was running on a set of Michelin pilot sports, which I know from my last car are very good on a track.

Anyway, off we went in a car that is designed for the track, first set of bends, I thought he should be slowing down by now, but no! Fuck me!! he was really throwing this car around, he is taking what I thought were diabolical liberties with speeds around bends, not the perfect line at times, but the car is so forgiving, it just takes it in its stride.
It didn't seem to matter whether it's damp or not, it just grips so well around the bends, the car starts to slide, but he just controls the drift really well due to the LSD, then the V8 just pulls the car around the corner. If I took my car around corners at this speed, I'm almost certain that I'd have been in the barriers by now. The power delivery was very smooth and the noise from the V8 at full chat, coupled with the blips from the DCT was sublime. Apparently it's louder in the passenger seat, so I was hearing it louder than the driver (I presume it's designed that way for LHD cars).
After a few laps the brakes started to fade quite badly, so we came in (brakes could be a bit better on a track car).

Now I get what the M3 is about, straight away I thought I'm going to buy one of these. Later my head took over and I thought, will it be worth getting lower than the current 18 mpg I get with mine, paying double for servicing, extended warranty etc, probably not? It's ability would probably be wasted on me. I only do 2000 miles a year and I can't drive the car like that on a daily basis. If I become a better track driver, then I'm getting one for sure. When I told my wife about it, she said why don't you treat yourself, so who knows

Maybe not the best of comparisons as I only drove my car and the M3 driver was a better driver than me.
It would be nice to go around the track with Lars (335Rocks) in his modified 335i to see how it compares (better driver than me/BBK/suspension etc.)
Fuel economy the same if that's what your getting. I get 19.2 over first 3k of ownership
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      11-28-2012, 03:14 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
Maybe not the best of comparisons as I only drove my car and the M3 driver was a better driver than me.
It would be nice to go around the track with Lars (335Rocks) in his modified 335i to see how it compares (better driver than me/BBK/suspension etc.)
Boz, it was nice meeting you. I did look for you at the end of the day, but I guess you were out in the M3 at that point. I'm back again at Silverstone GP this Saturday, so you're welcome to drop by. I'm sure it will be possible to get a passenger wrist band on the day for a small fee (pm me if you're interested). As you say, the new M3 is very nice and it can be pretty quick in the right hands, but it needs to be driven hard to extract the power and you need to upgrade the brakes if you plan to have more than a few laps of fun. You can get a 335i pretty close to this with the right mods and power wise you'll leave the M3 on the straights.

<slight rant on>
It's a shame the track was a bit damp for most of the day. It made it pretty much a constant series of red flags and looking through my video footage I had at least 6-7 times where I only managed 1.5 lap before another red flag situation came up. So I never got the chance to really get any heat into the tyres and brakes until my instructor laps and the last hour when people had started to go home. It some times have advantages to have an instructor in the car and be able to jump the queue. Nothing like having the track for yourself!

The attendance (130+) was maybe slightly on the high side, but it wouldn't have been a massive issue had it been marshalled properly and people would look in their mirrors. I find it unacceptable that there were no blue flags and no one had a chat to people not letting other quicker cars pass. So a mix of novices, plenty of oblivious left lane huggers and cars that are fast in a straight line parking it on the apex made for a slightly frustrating day. Add the supposed 2x20min "Novice only" times on the day that were blatantly abused by a quite a few I fail to see the point in this. Fully caged race cars going out in a Novice session and flying around the track. No wonder why one of the Novice sessions was red flagged. Having done a number of track days I don't see why everyone else should be punished for novices choosing Silverstone as their first track day. MSV are offering plenty of cheap half day Novice only track days as Brands Hatch and Bedford Autodrome that cater for this exact purpose. What they should do is to give Novices priority on the instructors in the morning, so they learn to drive the track properly and tell them to look in their mirrors. The makes it 10x better for everyone else on the day as they get up to speed immediately.

I had a few drag races down hangar straight with an TVR and an Alpina B5. The TVR was not too bad to get past and with a bit of a run at him I could squeeze past. The B5 on the other hand was pretty quick in a straight line, but he parked it going around corners and wouldn't let me past. So every corner I had to back off not to run into him and then only be able to follow him down the straight. Guess he didn't pay attention in the drivers briefing, "if people are catching you then that means they are faster, but may not necessarily have the BHP to out drag you, so ease off and let them past". My car is not slow, but out-dragging a 500BHP car is not that easy. Maybe it's time for some RB's .

Maybe I was just unlucky always hitting traffic and hopefully Saturday will be a lot better.
<slight rant done>


Quote:
Originally Posted by doughboy View Post
Boz -

Equally Tony (E92fan) took me round donnington in his 335i, and fook me, he was driving it like your mate in the M3 seems to (or faster)

Speeds I could never dream of into corners, clipping apex's and curbs, controlling/fighting the drift on the way out of corners, using all the track and his car just went.

Flat into Craner curves made me want to puke, I was lifted out of my seat he dropped down them so fast.

He had an AP BBK too, so I had seatbelt marks on my chest from the ferocity of the brakes - any they never faded.

You need to get someone to take you out in your own car by the sounds of it - you'll be suprised
The AP's are nice and you can really feel them when braking from high speeds and the road is dry. Tony's wasn't exactly a slow driver either and I had the pleasure of a few quick laps around the Ring with him. So I know what you mean!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
Cheers for that. I do suspect that I need to experience my car with a good driver. I've seen a couple of video clips of the 335i being driven like that around a track and it looks amazing.
I need to try a track like Bedford, so that if I make a mistake then there will be huge run-offs.

Do you know which setting Tony was using on the traction control.
off so the DTC light comes on, or fully off? And has he got an LSD?

BTW - your mods list looks amazing!
If I remember correctly Tony ran mostly with then just DTC on. With a diff this really allows you quite a bit of unleashed fun and still have ESP to keep the car pointing in the right direction. The other part is learning to feed in the power. With a few mods and a map this car has so much torque that you can spin up the wheels in 3rd if it's not fully dry. So gone are the days when you can just stomp on the pedal and expect it not to bite you back. Turn everything off and it will bite! I only ever run with everything off if it's totally dry and there is little to nothing to hit. I.e. Bedford Autodrome, but last I was there DTC was fine and I didn't feel it cutting power or interfering.
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      11-28-2012, 04:25 PM   #14
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335rocks

I think you were a little unlucky then, but have to agree, 2 Kumho cup cars a 996GT3RS and I think a supercharged M3 plus plenty of other fast cars in the 2 novice sessions was a bit silly

This is the only time I went out that got red flagged,



I have videos lasting 9, 22, 28, 35 mins too, and I didn't film the one with Boz, and maybe the last 15 mins when it felt like everyone was out, so of the track time available I'm pretty happy,

Wish it had dried out.

Next year
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      11-28-2012, 04:40 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335rocks View Post
Boz, it was nice meeting you. I did look for you at the end of the day, but I guess you were out in the M3 at that point. I'm back again at Silverstone GP this Saturday, so you're welcome to drop by.
Thanks for the offer Lars, that's really good of you. Unfortunately I can't make this weekend.

Thanks for the tip off about MSV @ Bedford Autodrome.
I just checked their website and they do an open pit lane day for 99. It sounds perfect for me until I get some more experience.
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      11-28-2012, 04:41 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
I found that my car could just about outdrag most of the cars on the straight, V8 M3s, 911's etc. The straight six with the performance exhaust sounded great when pushed. The DCT was just perfect on the track.
But then the corners came and coupled with my crap driving skills and my nervousness, I was soon overtaken as my exit speeds were quite low compared to others, then the frustrating bit was that I was generally holding back on the straights as I didn't want to overtake, as I'd be in the same position again at the next set of bends.
I would strongly recommend going out with an instructor they can encourage you to drive up to the safe limits and give you some really good track tips.

I was with an instructor and was able to outpace and overtake two 911 which were on the track. The track was dry and I was braking so hard the ABS where coming on a few times, and in the corners I was having to slow down due to the 911 just could not handle them. I too have Michelin pilot sports and non-run flats. Even the instructor was amazed with the Alpina road holding. However the Michelins took hammering and now need a new set.

I confess I was underwhelmed with the 911 performance and road holding I expected more, especially to what the press say about them. Has anyone else found this as well? (it could be the two 911 drivers were totally crap drivers)
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      11-28-2012, 05:03 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
....I need to try a track like Bedford, so that if I make a mistake then there will be huge run-offs....

Do you know which setting Tony was using on the traction control.
off so the DTC light comes on, or fully off? And has he got an LSD?

BTW - your mods list looks amazing!
+1 I'll be booking a bedford day in spring next year, I was given a 200 MSV voucher for my 40th off friends....

Tony used DTC on, 1 push, as he said I've found that gives more than enough wheelspin, slide and tail out if you want but keeps it from going way off.

Yes he had a quaife.

thanks - mods list getting longer, wallet getting more empty - meth kit in the garage waiting fitment
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      11-28-2012, 05:18 PM   #18
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Some great write up guys!!! ....


and yes Tony does have an lsd! and one of the fastest 335i on here!
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      11-28-2012, 06:08 PM   #19
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335rocks

I think you were a little unlucky then, but have to agree, 2 Kumho cup cars a 996GT3RS and I think a supercharged M3 plus plenty of other fast cars in the 2 novice sessions was a bit silly

This is the only time I went out that got red flagged,

Wish it had dried out.
Looks like I must have caught every single track closure. Guilty parties shall remain nameless!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boz335i View Post
Thanks for the offer Lars, that's really good of you. Unfortunately I can't make this weekend.

Thanks for the tip off about MSV @ Bedford Autodrome.
I just checked their website and they do an open pit lane day for 99. It sounds perfect for me until I get some more experience.
I really like Bedford as it's one of those tracks where most kerbs are painted, it's flat with loads of run off area, so you can really get to know your car. Dry, wet or damp it's pretty good fun and one of the safest tracks to learn how your car behaves on the limit. It can be a little hard on the brakes if you push it, but all part of the fun.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Estoril Sport View Post
I would strongly recommend going out with an instructor they can encourage you to drive up to the safe limits and give you some really good track tips.
+1 on that. I would recommend that you try to book the instructor time so you have a couple of hours on track before you have the tuition. This way you get to learn the track before hand and I find I'm able to pickup more from the instructors.
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      11-28-2012, 06:12 PM   #20
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.. and one of the fastest 335i on here!
Not at the moment, it's missing a rather important lump!
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      11-30-2012, 06:46 AM   #21
Alpina_B3_Lux
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2009 335i  [4.39]
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Boz, it was nice meeting you. I did look for you at the end of the day, but I guess you were out in the M3 at that point. I'm back again at Silverstone GP this Saturday, so you're welcome to drop by. I'm sure it will be possible to get a passenger wrist band on the day for a small fee (pm me if you're interested). As you say, the new M3 is very nice and it can be pretty quick in the right hands, but it needs to be driven hard to extract the power and you need to upgrade the brakes if you plan to have more than a few laps of fun. You can get a 335i pretty close to this with the right mods and power wise you'll leave the M3 on the straights.
I agree. Throw a Quaife plus coilovers into the 335i and you'll be close to the M3 in cornering speeds, and pull away from it in the straights.

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The AP's are nice and you can really feel them when braking from high speeds and the road is dry. Tony's wasn't exactly a slow driver either and I had the pleasure of a few quick laps around the Ring with him. So I know what you mean!
The AP Racing brakes are great. IRRC Tony uses a track compound on the track, as opposed to the normal pad compound for the street. Having changed my stock brakes recently to a Performance Friction BBK I can assure it's a big difference. Vastly superior also to the M3 brakes.

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If I remember correctly Tony ran mostly with then just DTC on. With a diff this really allows you quite a bit of unleashed fun and still have ESP to keep the car pointing in the right direction. The other part is learning to feed in the power. With a few mods and a map this car has so much torque that you can spin up the wheels in 3rd if it's not fully dry.
In 3rd? I get a christmas tree in my dashboard even in 5th gear when it's not totally dry. In third gear I can provoke wheelspin at leisure even when it's dry and I'm on my summer tyres. The torque is addictive though.

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Alpina_B3_Lux is offline   Germany
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      11-30-2012, 06:51 AM   #22
idnan
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Originally Posted by Alpina_B3_Lux View Post
In 3rd? I get a christmas tree in my dashboard even in 5th gear when it's not totally dry. In third gear I can provoke wheelspin at leisure even when it's dry and I'm on my summer tyres. The torque is addictive though.

Alpina_B3_Lux
Yeah but you've got a very special set of turbos on yours
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