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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Rematch: Cobb FBO 335i vs JB4 FBO 335i (Video Inside)



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      11-27-2012, 11:31 AM   #89
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Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
AutoTuning is all the same, I mean here's a quote right off of the Vishnu PROcede forum:

They're all the same: the piggy adapts depending on the conditions, gas octane & mods and can raise/lower boost depending on the conditions. On both the JB4 & PROcede you can fine tune it yourself & create a "Custom Map", but it will not allow you to tune as in-depth as the COBB + ATR will.
You are wrong, Procede haven't had "autotuning" for a long time. Why do you think you can adjust the timing and boost in the Procede user interface then if autotuning could do it for you? Dream on...
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      11-27-2012, 11:35 AM   #90
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Yep. How about this - Cobb is sucks unless you have a protune, or unless you add a Jb4 to it to get the best of both.
Doubtful for getting LC, especially when the DCT already came with it. COBB implemented LC-reprogramming because companies like AMS were making 1,200 HP and the parameters needed to be adjusted for adding over double the HP.

And for all the money we spend modding/maintaining our cars, you make it sound like it's unreasonable to spent another ~$200 on a Custom Tune. You can also do it for Free if you feel comfortable using ATR.
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      11-27-2012, 11:35 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by benzy89 View Post
AutoTuning is all the same, I mean here's a quote right off of the Vishnu PROcede forum:
Now I understand. Your knowledge comes from the marketing texts that are wrong and several years old and not really by first hand experience with the tuning products. No wonder some of your "facts2, such as autotuning were wrong.
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      11-27-2012, 02:47 PM   #92
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Originally Posted by n54door View Post
Yep. How about this - Cobb is sucks unless you have a protune, or unless you add a Jb4 to it to get the best of both.
Cobb does well on its own. Here is a car on stock runflats, no meth, running impressive times despite the terrible 60ft: http://www.e90post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=764931

There's probably another 1-2mph in there, but for an OTS map I'd say that is pretty stout.
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      11-27-2012, 03:33 PM   #93
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Benzy, sorry but ... Not trying to offend you in anyway, but you may as well quit while you're ahead.

Most everything you have said I've heard before from the misguided COBB boys here in Portland at one point in time. Regardless, if you're going to bash other tunes, you should first know what you're talking about before you put your foot in your mouth, well... like you did. Good job...

In Benzy's defense... trust me, I'm not trying to start a tuner war, but we all know COBB has come a long way and will probably surpass the capabilities of the JB and PROcede tunes unless Shiv and Terry come up with something out of this world. Honestly, gauge hijacking isn't worth keeping my tune around if I switch to COBB considering today COBB will do everything I need it to do accept for meth control and Aquamist has a solution for that. Face it, we all know JB and PROcede both have limits with regard to fueling and the only way to fix that is through flashing. Other than that, we all make about the same power today depending on mods and level of tune. This whole platform reminds me of the early days of computing, which vendor will walk away with it all. DR-DOS, MS-DOS, or LINUX??? I also wonder about the JB users who end up buying the COBB AP, how long will it be before they start playing with the COBB and end up using their JB for gauge hijacking and meth control. I know I would... Just my nature to play around with a new toy.. BTW, nothing against JB. I know Terry puts down some good numbers. But as a tuner, why would you turn to another tuner to fix a shortcoming with your tune? I'm not saying Vishnu's solution of shipping your DME is perfect by no means, but Vishnu isn't telling anyone to go spend $800+ on another tune to fix our fueling issues. Regardless, I honestly think I'll end up owning a COBB AP in the near future just because I want the ability to manage the tables, log what I can't log today, and do some of my own tuning to meet my needs, wants, and desires of how I feel my car should perform. Plus, I would never be happy with just an off the shelf tune like some users.

OP, nice video...
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      11-27-2012, 06:24 PM   #94
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Is Terry "turning to another tuner" to overcome "shortcomings", or is he simply using an existing device for different business-related reasons and applying his own tuning through another tuner's device? I see a difference in the two.

I don't think its reasonable to say that using a flash to support a piggy that you already have been using since 2009 (back when piggys were the market) is a lesser method. The market and the ability we have to make power out of these cars is different now than it was when I got my n54 in 2008, for example.

At the end of the day, there will always be folks who tirelessly rep their own choices for the reasons that they made them....

How much heavier is an automatic transmission than a manual transmission, if at all?
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      11-27-2012, 08:58 PM   #95
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Originally Posted by nailer335 View Post
Is Terry "turning to another tuner" to overcome "shortcomings", or is he simply using an existing device for different business-related reasons and applying his own tuning through another tuner's device? I see a difference in the two.

I don't think its reasonable to say that using a flash to support a piggy that you already have been using since 2009 (back when piggys were the market) is a lesser method. The market and the ability we have to make power out of these cars is different now than it was when I got my n54 in 2008, for example.

At the end of the day, there will always be folks who tirelessly rep their own choices for the reasons that they made them....

How much heavier is an automatic transmission than a manual transmission, if at all?
I replied to his other thread saying the same thing. The BMS back end flash was designed/programmed by BMS for 50%+ E85 cars and large turbo cars and just happens to be loaded at home using a Cobb AP as that is the only at home loading system publicly available. It's actually offered for free to JB4 owners who need/want it.

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      11-27-2012, 09:14 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike@N54Tuning.com View Post
I replied to his other thread saying the same thing. The BMS back end flash was designed/programmed by BMS for 50%+ E85 cars and large turbo cars and just happens to be loaded at home using a Cobb AP as that is the only at home loading system publicly available. It's actually offered for free to JB4 owners who need/want it.

Mike
The AP isn't free. The flash is also generated using the Cobb ATP (Protuners) Software.
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      11-27-2012, 10:31 PM   #97
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The AP isn't free. The flash is also generated using the Cobb ATP (Protuners) Software.
+1 Good point Jake. Funny how some people have such a different opinion when the obvious is right in front of them.

This is a quote from http://burgertuning.com/cobb.html

"For large turbo and nitrous customers we suggest the AP to allow loading of our custom pro tuned fueling map which transfers tuning and ignition advance tuning from the JB4 over to the flash side, adds VANOS and additional tuning features, and allows the JB4 to focus on what it does best for large turbos, boost control, meth integration, in dash features, and safety features."

So correct me if I'm wrong, the BS Pro Tune fueling map transfers the tuning to include ignition advance (which the JB4 actually doesn't do that I'm aware of) over to the flash side. Then the JB4 can focus on what it does best... Boost control, meth integration, and gauge hijacking which I think that's all it does anyway right? I'm still not clear as to what safety features the JB4 has? Can someone elaborate on that?

Not trying to start a war over this, just find it comical that more people haven't questioned this solution. Buy the JB4 because it's the best tune for the money, BUT if you really want to make a lot of power, you also have to by a COBB AP to flash your DME to effectively make our tune work.

I think at this point I would have sold my JB4 and bought the COBB as suggested.
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      11-28-2012, 12:44 AM   #98
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The AP isn't free. The flash is also generated using the Cobb ATP (Protuners) Software.
Jake,

Hmm. I understood the BMS back end flash (the actual tuning) to be the subject and the AP to be the direct object (device used to perform the action) of Mike's point... illustrating the importance of reading comprehension, even when marketing Keep doing what you're doing with respect to doing pro-tunes with the COBB AP, you're making lots of customers happy.

Wedge,

Jake's point was completely irrelevant to Mike's comment- it was based on a reading comprehension blunder that rendered it little more than a trite comeback-styled remark. If you intended on communicating that Jake's "good point" was good with respect to accuracy, then yes. It was a factual interjection. The accessport isn't free. I'm really glad that Jake pointed this out because I was about to start calling suppliers of the AP to give me a $6-7XX product for free because that's how I misinterpreted a comment on a public board... wait, no... I understood that the "free" part was the service, not the product. Additionally, that the flash is generated using the ATP software. A factual interjection that carries literal weight and zero contextual (quoting Mike) relevance.

Thank you for the quote from BMS and your astute observation. It looks like you're learning well for being relatively new to the n54 scene. I can't account for BMS's online marketing (or Jakes, whoevers...) and won't begin since I'm relatively impartial to a particular company in this scene and more result-driven. So, in case any of that astute observation was for me, I appreciate you reiterating what I've known since before you joined this forum and likely before you got your used n54 (not knocking getting used n54s, just reiterating that I'm well aware of the differences between flashes and PID controllers). You seem pretty sharp and proactive- delve more into the JB4 product to answer your own question about its safety features. Proactively learning is good, but my hunch is that your question was antagonism.

Terry's choice to use the AP for the minority portion of his customer base is an extremely simple supply chain related business decision, considering that the x>50% E85, large turbo and NOS customers are greatly outnumbered by the "set it and forget it" customers. Think business and it all makes sense. This is a simple business decision, even people who don't have business college degrees can see it's simplicity. (if my memory serves that you were the one to throw up your college degree in support of a comment you made a little while back. )

It's important for people to understand what they want and arrive to their conclusion on their own, since there are factors towards their decision that only they know. IF they want to run lots of E85 or NOS or upgraded turbos, THEN they need a COBB AP to HOME-LOAD BMS's flash, which is how Terry's customer base will be best served, rather than mailing your DME somewhere and having your car down for the entire time its gone.

"But if you really want to make a lot of power"... I consider a FBO+meth stock turbo 335i to be a lot of power. Many people did for a long time, before you purchased your 335i and joined this forum a little more than one year ago. Hell, many people still do. Many cars have results that indicate that the car is capable making "a lot of power" on just the Piggybacks, without having to "by" an AP. Even if piggy's aren't conceptually sound to the most educated of us, I think they have enough miles on them to justify their market presence and earn respect as a viable solution to many peoples' goals.

I know you say that you aren't trying to start a war, I appreciate your sincere efforts. "I think at this point I would have sold my JB4 and bought the COBB as suggested."

Please, be genuine. Don't pretend to not want to "start a war" when its obvious that you do. You couldn't present yourself any more antagonistically than you are. I understand that you're probably emotionally revved up right now, since this is public and you're concerned about your image and such. Feel free to send me a PM to leave you feeling on top... Or comment below so that your "public" ego is restored.

I already can't wait for the sheeple of the future to ask biased (and a college educated expert) people how to modify their cars to make more power. Then people can rep what they bought and it'll be as awesome as it has been the past four years that I've seen this happen.

Last edited by nailer335; 11-28-2012 at 12:55 AM.
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      11-28-2012, 03:51 AM   #99
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Bravo nailer. Itís difficult to read into the true meaning of an online conversation without knowing anything about the person who wrote it. I can appreciate your sense of humor and truly enjoyed reading your post.

By the way, I would never take offence to your comment with regard to my used n54. I must admit, I did my research prior to making a responsible financial decision with regard to purchasing used vs. new.

With regard to the question about the JB4 product and its safety features, I honestly donít know and left that open for comment. True, I was a little stoked regarding an earlier post made by Mike on another thread. I try to be impartial and I know I should bite my lip and let the trolls go at it, but Iíve made my share of faux pas.

I must agree it was a smart business move to utilize an existing product to provide a small percentage of his customerís with a solution. Iím sure the majority of those who buy new will also purchase the AP from BMS providing them with a nice little profit margin to offset the time spent making their flash not to mention other expenses they incurred.

My apologies to those who may have found my comments to be antagonistic in nature, I should leave my emotions aside and stick to the facts as nailer so kindly brought to our attention. I truly appreciate the words of wisdom and wish more people took the time to analysis a conversation prior to commenting. I take no offense and appreciate your honesty.
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      11-28-2012, 06:57 AM   #100
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
... but Vishnu isn't telling anyone to go spend $800+ on another tune to fix our fueling issues...
No he wasn't, instead of recognizing publicly that the relabeled Haltech box could not provide sufficient fueling, he kept insisting this relabeled Haltech box was a complete tuning solution and was sufficient for fueling, and then releases a flash of his own, to supplement the relabeled Haltech box, with upgraded fueling tables because of the now recognized ceiling of the stock DME, despite downplaying stacked tunes months prior

All 'pokes' aside, yes it was a great video, and I hope to see futured continued development and efforts with your flex-fuel testing. It may convince me to go back to the other side at some point for a more integrated solution.
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      11-28-2012, 07:15 AM   #101
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+1 Good point Jake. Funny how some people have such a different opinion when the obvious is right in front of them.

This is a quote from http://burgertuning.com/cobb.html

"For large turbo and nitrous customers we suggest the AP to allow loading of our custom pro tuned fueling map which transfers tuning and ignition advance tuning from the JB4 over to the flash side, adds VANOS and additional tuning features, and allows the JB4 to focus on what it does best for large turbos, boost control, meth integration, in dash features, and safety features."

So correct me if I'm wrong, the BS Pro Tune fueling map transfers the tuning to include ignition advance (which the JB4 actually doesn't do that I'm aware of) over to the flash side. Then the JB4 can focus on what it does best... Boost control, meth integration, and gauge hijacking which I think that's all it does anyway right? I'm still not clear as to what safety features the JB4 has? Can someone elaborate on that?

Not trying to start a war over this, just find it comical that more people haven't questioned this solution. Buy the JB4 because it's the best tune for the money, BUT if you really want to make a lot of power, you also have to by a COBB AP to flash your DME to effectively make our tune work.

I think at this point I would have sold my JB4 and bought the COBB as suggested.
Ignoring the trollish elements of your post and just answering the fundamental question why have a piggyback in the first place. The answer is simple. The piggyback can do a lot of things the flash tuning alone can't do.

A few simple examples:

1) Absolute boost targeting (vs. load targeting offered by flash tunes), with no boost mapping constraints. This includes gear dependent boost control, dynamic target control found in auto learning and progressive methanol maps, etc.

2) More robust adaptive wastegate duty cycle routines beyond what you can map in the DME.

3) Progressive methanol mapping and integration including in dash flow readings.

4) Over boost, run lean, temperature protection, and knock detection safety systems that are more robust and configurable than what the DME alone offers.

5) On the fly tuning adjustments (to boost, timing, and air/fuel) required for a functional auto tuning or integrated methanol system. Including taking in external inputs like a methanol flow sensor, flex fuel sensor, etc, and then adjusting tuning as a function of those inputs.

6) Extensive addl features at least on the JB4 side. 2STEP, NLS, user adjustable in dash gauges, shift light, water pump remap, TPMS suppression, code management, etc, etc, covered in the wheel control sheet below.

Now what flash tuning does really well is directly map lambda targets to injector pulse widths so at some point > 450whp you wind up needing to flash to address those issues. While you are flashing anyway BMS makes several other table changes to optimize the flash tuning for higher performance allowed by big E85 mixtures. Changes to the advance maps, VANOS changes, etc. Sure the JB4 G5 has CPS and extra digital I/O one could use to make those same timing / VANOS changes but since you are flashing anyway for the fueling it makes more sense / works better to have those changes done on the DME side.

For JB4 owners the device itself is only $479 new so it's sort of a no brainer to keep it around. Especially considering you get a tuner writing both the flash and JB4 maps for you to go along with it. That alone is probably worth hundreds.... Now in your case I know the PROcede is more limited in its feature set so if you don't care about the boost control, meth control, and in dash stuff it offers and the tuner does not give you support then it might not make sense for you to run it along with a flash. That is a judgement call you will need to make. But you've probably spent thousands of dollars in mods already so why not keep your PROcede around to have the best of both worlds?



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      11-28-2012, 01:27 PM   #102
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Wow u guys are trashing this thread. A couple of things need to be clarified:

1) Procede has disabled autotuning maps for quite some time now (not sure how that relates to the original post, but this is just for clarification since people feel the need to argue with false information)

2) Cobb ap is just as fast as any other tune once its protuned. Its most likely better tailored to your car if you get protuned. Jake is local to me and I have witnessed some of the vehicles he has protuned. They are all fast, so anyone doubting the fact that cobb can "do it all on its own like the piggies" , is wrong.

3.) During the vid, its worth noting that while the autotuning map was being used on the jb4 car, it was also running a lower e85 mixture. Had it ran the same e85 mixture as the cobb car, it would have been more aggressive. Map 5 also detunes itself if you are running too aggressive for the conditions. ALSO: the cobb car in the vid had a slipping clutch which most def affected performance.

All tunes have positives and negatives, so no need to argue. I like whatever makes my car fast. That being said, I've seen plenty of cobb cars that are as fast as mine or faster. I'm unbiased and would reccomend cobb or jb4 if I were asked. Pick the one you like, run it, and have fun.
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Last edited by Stucks; 11-28-2012 at 01:47 PM.
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      11-28-2012, 03:07 PM   #103
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You made a damn goood choice IMO. Used n54 > new n55 all day long.
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      11-28-2012, 03:59 PM   #104
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The forums always get so interesting when it starts to get cold out
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      11-28-2012, 04:48 PM   #105
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Ignoring the trollish elements of your post and just answering the fundamental question why have a piggyback in the first place. The answer is simple. The piggyback can do a lot of things the flash tuning alone can't do.
Thanks for the feedback Mike. My apologies for being a dick about this. I know this was a good move for Terry and BMS and it provided a solution. In the long run it does make sense to move to COBB for table management and JB/PROcede for Boost/Timing/Wastegate/Meth... We all need to focus on facts and not make assumptions. It's much more productive to our community.
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      11-28-2012, 04:50 PM   #106
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The forums always get so interesting when it starts to get cold out
You need a with that ?
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      11-28-2012, 04:54 PM   #107
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Put the JB4 on 50/50 at raise it to 18psi like the Cobb and you got a different race
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      11-28-2012, 07:31 PM   #108
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So it sounds like you can run just as fast with any tune as long as you set it up the same way?
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      11-28-2012, 07:38 PM   #109
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Put the JB4 on 50/50 at raise it to 18psi like the Cobb and you got a different race
Match the final drives and gearing of the cars so the automatic doesnt have that huge advantage and you've got a different race as well.

This thread wasn't to bash other tunes or cause drama yet it always seems to happen no matter what. Enjoy what you have - all the tunes work - just in different ways...and i'll leave it at that
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