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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Technical Forums > Wheels and Tires Forum Sponsored by The Tire Rack > Tightening wheels lugs, torque wrench?



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      11-26-2012, 02:06 PM   #23
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Yes, always use a torque wrench. When working in auto craft shops here in Germany I encourage people to use a torque wrench, not just goodandtight!
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      11-26-2012, 03:36 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by gpb View Post
Not really any speculation, adding antiseize invalidates the torque value if the manufacturer didn't specify to use it. There *is* speculation as to whether it's needed or not, but I won't get into that as it's been a long time since I lived in the Rust Belt.

Torque is a measure of the sliding friction between the threads as you tighten the bolt. Add antiseize and you change the coefficient of friction, which means you risk over or under torquing the bolts if you go by the specified torque value.

If you must use something on the threads different from the manufacturer's specification, supposedly you can use the K values to figure the new/correct torque values. I'd be really cautious doing this and recheck torque periodically to avoid any unpleasant surprises.
We use "never seize" all the time on our heavy equipment and that kinda became the norm ever time I had to do a brake job on our lite duty trucks and I've always used it on all of my cars and never had a failure.( but I do check my vehicles frequently ,& I've never noticed any " back off")Never seize or a little light grease is fine and won't affect you're torque specs enough to matter.What you're truly doing is "stretching" the thread between the nut and bolt.A thin coat of never seize isn't going to stop the threads from stretching. I'm sure there is a good argument for not doing this, but in my 25 + years of changing brakes and torquing wheels , I've never had any ill effects from using never seize.BUt as time has gone on there is more and more literature saying not to use it and its unnecessary and it can actually lead to premature wear. Manufacturing changes. Things change. You should always do what the owners manual says. In my case its a old habits dying hard....and I'll admit it

Last edited by Reznick; 11-26-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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      11-26-2012, 04:16 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
Never seize or a little light grease is fine and won't affect you're torque specs enough to matter.What you're truly doing is "stretching" the thread between the nut and bolt.A thin coat of never seize isn't going to stop the threads from stretching. I'm sure there is a good argument for not doing this, but in my 25 + years of changing brakes and torquing wheels , I've never had any ill effects from using never seize.BUt as time has gone on there is more and more literature saying not to use it and its unnecessary and it can actually lead to premature wear. Manufacturing changes. Things change. You should always do what the owners manual says. In my case its a old habits dying hard....and I'll admit it
Ha, I see you're in Syracuse. Brings back memories; I spent much of my life in the Finger Lakes region.

Good clarification. Indeed, you're stretching the bolt, effectively putting tension on the threads and sort of "locking" the bolt in place. (gross generalization alert for increasing static friction by pulling the thread surfaces together) Many times the torque spec has a lot of wiggle room, so adding a compound may not have a true effect.

Funny you mention old habits and times changing. I always used Never-Seez on wheel studs and "torqued" wheel bolts by feel back 25+ years ago. Never had a problem, and never had to pull out a torch to get a wheel nut to let go either. Over time I've changed habits and techniques, though I admit I still just go by feel on a lot of stuff. Not exactly practicing what I preach, but I grew up with a dad who rebuilt cars for a hobby I try to be conservative in anything I write here; no telling what level of expertise the reader has. Someone experienced like you are, who pays close attention to things, is a lot different from the fellow (or lady) who has Google whether it's clockwise to tighten or the other way around.
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      11-26-2012, 04:16 PM   #26
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I dont think its laziness on part of the dealer/tire shop, but more of removing a liability from their shoulders.
You have to torque the wheel nuts to spec AND you have to redo them again after 100 miles or so. Not doing this second step increases the chances of lug nuts falling off.

How many people are going to go back to the dealer/tire shop to get them re-torqued? I'm going to say 0.
Because of this, the dealer/shop will over-torque. They dont want your wheel falling off.

I once went to a tire shop. I was happy when I saw the guy pull out the torque wrench. I was not happy when I saw him torque the crap out of the lug nuts.

Got home, loosen them up, put them up to spec. Two days later re-torqued.
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      11-26-2012, 06:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by gpb View Post
Ha, I see you're in Syracuse. Brings back memories; I spent much of my life in the Finger Lakes region.

Good clarification. Indeed, you're stretching the bolt, effectively putting tension on the threads and sort of "locking" the bolt in place. (gross generalization alert for increasing static friction by pulling the thread surfaces together) Many times the torque spec has a lot of wiggle room, so adding a compound may not have a true effect.

Funny you mention old habits and times changing. I always used Never-Seez on wheel studs and "torqued" wheel bolts by feel back 25+ years ago. Never had a problem, and never had to pull out a torch to get a wheel nut to let go either. Over time I've changed habits and techniques, though I admit I still just go by feel on a lot of stuff. Not exactly practicing what I preach, but I grew up with a dad who rebuilt cars for a hobby I try to be conservative in anything I write here; no telling what level of expertise the reader has. Someone experienced like you are, who pays close attention to things, is a lot different from the fellow (or lady) who has Google whether it's clockwise to tighten or the other way around.
Ah , so you know lake effect snow well.lol Some people have no clue what its like to be surrounded by water in the winter, things change fast.Funny you mentioned torquing by "feel".Since I grew up in a shop surrounded by tools I got so I could pretty give a 100 ft lbs be "feel" on our lite duty trucks. Then I'd break out the torque wrench to be sure.Sometimes I'm amazed at how little people actually know about their cars( & thats not a slam to those people) , but then I snap back into reality and realize not very many people grew up with the access to the tools I'm used to.Like you I was taught by my dad to tear into things. I will say tearing apart a D9 dozer and transmission is a little different from pulling an engine out of a car. Besides the huge equipment to do it , in truth, rebuilding them is probably easier.lol less smog equipment
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      11-26-2012, 06:08 PM   #28
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I always use a torque wrench when I can and I too am in the anti-seize camp. I only use it on the threads though never the tapered lug seats - you don't want those to be lubricated. Even if you don't use anti-seize on the threads, I'd seriously recommend using it on the hub protrusions - just ask my car. (I'm sure that pounding the wheels off with a hammer and block of wood the first time I took them off was good for the wheel bearings.)
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      11-26-2012, 07:11 PM   #29
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I've used a torque wrench for over 10 years, never giving it any thought. One weekend I loaned my tools out, and figured I'll just tighten the nuts when I get my wrench back. Wouldn't you know 2 days later the car began shaking--at 15-25 mph.

It's really important to retighten with aluminum rims. I find it takes 3X.

p.s. although I use anti-seize on the hubs, I would NEVER use it on the nuts. Nothing like invalidating the use of a torque wrench.

I thought all BMW dealerships hand torqued the lug bolts, but I may be wrong. Perhaps non-dealers use the impact wrench and overtighten, because as I said, it seems to take 3X of retightening to get it right. If they simply do 120 lbs. ft., it'll probably stay overtightened.
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      11-26-2012, 08:40 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 070 View Post
I've used a torque wrench for over 10 years, never giving it any thought. One weekend I loaned my tools out, and figured I'll just tighten the nuts when I get my wrench back. Wouldn't you know 2 days later the car began shaking--at 15-25 mph.

It's really important to retighten with aluminum rims. I find it takes 3X.

p.s. although I use anti-seize on the hubs, I would NEVER use it on the nuts. Nothing like invalidating the use of a torque wrench.

I thought all BMW dealerships hand torqued the lug bolts, but I may be wrong. Perhaps non-dealers use the impact wrench and overtighten, because as I said, it seems to take 3X of retightening to get it right. If they simply do 120 lbs. ft., it'll probably stay overtightened.

Yes on the never seize around the hub. Nothing like beating the hell out of a rim and tire to try to get it off the vehicle. But I think you have to consider how the never seize is used as a factor. I was always taught an extremely light coat on lugs . So light so it wouldn't come up through the lug once it was tightened down . The difference on the actual torque would be negligible .Remember too the torque specs are based off of a new clean nut or stud. I'm betting very few people actually wire wheel the studs or chase the lug nut threads with a tap and clover to clean them up.As I posted before, I have 25+ yrs as a professional mechanic. There was a time when never seize was always used.I've never had one wheel ever come loose off the 1st torque ,aluminum or steel, or warped a rotor and I personally do all our brakes. Large and small vehicles.This is all while using never seize. Now it seems nobody can decide that if the torque is affected , by how much? As I said before if BMW says don't use it , then don't use it. But if you end up being 3lbs off, that can be equal to the inaccuracies in the wrench itself...and no I don't don't have Harbor Freight specials. Most of my tools are Snap ons.We have torque wrenches that are small and one that is about 4' long for big work


Well I guess this kinda proves what I was getting at about the application of never seize. http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/...sp?techid=107&

Last edited by Reznick; 11-27-2012 at 12:57 PM. Reason: added info
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      11-27-2012, 07:38 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
Well I guess this kinda proves what I was getting at about the application of never seize.
http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/...sp?techid=107&
Looks like the link above is broken...
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      11-27-2012, 07:44 AM   #32
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When I did my brakes, I wire brushed with a dremel, the rust area on the hubs and wheel centers. I anti seized those areas plus the brake pad guides as they were built up with soot.
The wheels couldn't come off or go back on any more perfect. I highly advise this step.
I torqued my wheels yesterday after getting home, raised the wheels off the ground, loosened them and then snugged the bolts, then torqued them. NO ANTI SEIZE on lug bolts! I however to my surprise noticed a difference. The steering doesn't feel as if each wheel is fighting eachother. It seems to glide better now. I do believe I have a bad wheel up front, still a slight vibration at certain times.
Could be the cracks/dry rot between the treads, out of round, something is going on but the torque on the lugs made a hard to believe noticeable improvement.
Thanks for this post.
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      11-27-2012, 08:10 AM   #33
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I have 3/8 torq wrench
is it okay for the lug nuts or do i need 1/2 torq wrench for proper job done?
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      11-27-2012, 08:40 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90sexion View Post
I have 3/8 torq wrench
is it okay for the lug nuts or do i need 1/2 torq wrench for proper job done?
What's the torque range on your existing wrench? That's what matters, not the driver size.

I believe the spec for E9x lug bolts is 88 ftlbs, so if your wrench only goes to 90, you may want a second one with a higher range because accuracy falls off towards the ends of the torque range.

Last edited by gpb; 11-27-2012 at 09:02 AM.
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      11-27-2012, 08:45 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90sexion View Post
I have 3/8 torq wrench
is it okay for the lug nuts or do i need 1/2 torq wrench for proper job done?
I don't see why not as long as it works properly and will tighten to the specification you need. It may be a little harder to use because of the shorter pull!
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      11-27-2012, 12:58 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zzzbullseye View Post
Looks like the link above is broken...
Sorry fixed the link http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/...sp?techid=107&

This was the first part of the write up on TireRack & it basically says what I said about the application of never seize in my reply above .

Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle dealer.

Wheel lug torque specifications are for clean threads that are free of dirt, grit, etc. If applying an anti-seize lubricant, it is important to note it can be applied only on the threads of nuts or bolts. The lubricant must not be used on either seat of the hardware of the wheel. With the seat being the main point of friction where torque is measured, extreme caution must be used if an anti-seize lubricant is applied to the threads as excess can either drip or be pushed onto the lug seat resulting in inaccurate torque values.

A thread chaser or tap should be used to remove any burrs or obstructions of the threads allowing the lug hardware to be turned by hand until it meets the wheel's lug seat. Once lugs are snugged down, finish tightening them with an accurate torque wrench. Use the appropriate crisscross sequence (shown below) for the number of wheel lugs on your vehicle until all have reached their proper torque value. Be careful because if you over-torque a wheel, you can strip a lug nut or hub, stretch or break a stud or bolt, and ca
Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle deal

Last edited by Reznick; 11-27-2012 at 01:05 PM.
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      11-27-2012, 05:18 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
Sorry fixed the link http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/...sp?techid=107&

This was the first part of the write up on TireRack & it basically says what I said about the application of never seize in my reply above .

Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle dealer.

Wheel lug torque specifications are for clean threads that are free of dirt, grit, etc. If applying an anti-seize lubricant, it is important to note it can be applied only on the threads of nuts or bolts. The lubricant must not be used on either seat of the hardware of the wheel. With the seat being the main point of friction where torque is measured, extreme caution must be used if an anti-seize lubricant is applied to the threads as excess can either drip or be pushed onto the lug seat resulting in inaccurate torque values.

A thread chaser or tap should be used to remove any burrs or obstructions of the threads allowing the lug hardware to be turned by hand until it meets the wheel's lug seat. Once lugs are snugged down, finish tightening them with an accurate torque wrench. Use the appropriate crisscross sequence (shown below) for the number of wheel lugs on your vehicle until all have reached their proper torque value. Be careful because if you over-torque a wheel, you can strip a lug nut or hub, stretch or break a stud or bolt, and ca
Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle deal
Good info from Tire Rack as usual.
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      11-27-2012, 06:47 PM   #38
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Breaker bar to remove and always a torque wrench to tighten.
Drive 30 miles or so and re-torque.
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      11-27-2012, 07:02 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
Yes on the never seize around the hub. Nothing like beating the hell out of a rim and tire to try to get it off the vehicle. But I think you have to consider how the never seize is used as a factor. I was always taught an extremely light coat on lugs . So light so it wouldn't come up through the lug once it was tightened down . The difference on the actual torque would be negligible .Remember too the torque specs are based off of a new clean nut or stud. I'm betting very few people actually wire wheel the studs or chase the lug nut threads with a tap and clover to clean them up.As I posted before, I have 25+ yrs as a professional mechanic. There was a time when never seize was always used.I've never had one wheel ever come loose off the 1st torque ,aluminum or steel, or warped a rotor and I personally do all our brakes. Large and small vehicles.This is all while using never seize. Now it seems nobody can decide that if the torque is affected , by how much? As I said before if BMW says don't use it , then don't use it. But if you end up being 3lbs off, that can be equal to the inaccuracies in the wrench itself...and no I don't don't have Harbor Freight specials. Most of my tools are Snap ons.We have torque wrenches that are small and one that is about 4' long for big work


Well I guess this kinda proves what I was getting at about the application of never seize. http://www.tirerack.com/wheels/tech/...sp?techid=107&
I think tire rack does not recommend anti seize on the lugs. They say extreme caution must be used if that's done. It's just a wheel going on a car, why do something that turns it into brain surgery?

I don't see what the purpose would be, it's flirting with danger and definitely affecting the torqued value. Yes, even a good torque wrench can be +/- 3 lbs. at 85 lbs. ft., so why throw it off another 3-4? Now you could be at 79.

The anti seize is so the BMW rim doesn't get stuck to the hub, which it will without. The nuts come off like butter when dry. Again, just imho never, ever, ever, use anti seize on the lugs or on other cars, the nuts. It's playing around introducing risk, with no reward....
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      11-27-2012, 07:08 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedwagon View Post
I don't see why not as long as it works properly and will tighten to the specification you need. It may be a little harder to use because of the shorter pull!
85 lbs. ft. is not a lot, I don't see why a 3/8 wouldn't work. But all my impact sockets are 1/2. Also, remember, torque wrenches are not accurate below 20% of the top of their range, so if you're in that range, a torque wrench with a lower range is needed. Ex for a 30-250 wrench like mine, you cannot get down into a < 50 range.

That's why there are 3/8 wrenches with ranges of 5-75 and 10-100. With a 10-100 you can do down to 20 lbs. ft. With a 5-75 you could get down to 10 lbs. ft.
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      11-27-2012, 07:39 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 070 View Post
I think tire rack does not recommend anti seize on the lugs. They say extreme caution must be used if that's done. It's just a wheel going on a car, why do something that turns it into brain surgery?

I don't see what the purpose would be, it's flirting with danger and definitely affecting the torqued value. Yes, even a good torque wrench can be +/- 3 lbs. at 85 lbs. ft., so why throw it off another 3-4? Now you could be at 79.

The anti seize is so the BMW rim doesn't get stuck to the hub, which it will without. The nuts come off like butter when dry. Again, just imho never, ever, ever, use anti seize on the lugs or on other cars, the nuts. It's playing around introducing risk, with no reward....
Umm... tell that to my dad, who I was trying to help swap tires this past weekend. Vehicle was an '02 GTI 1.8T but lugs look identical to BMW. From just a summer's worth of all-weather driving, the lugs were so corroded that it took a breaker bar with a 5' "cheater pipe" to bust the lugs loose - no normal hand tools, and not even the local service station's impact wrench could get them off.

I think lug bolts are even worse than lug nuts in this regard, because if you have exposed lug nuts they are likely "acorn" style where there's no easy path for water/salt to get on the threads, while with lug bolts, the bit that protrudes through to the backside of the hub can get splashed with all sorts of nastiness.

Now the service station did finally break down and put anti-sleaze on the threads and they did advise my dad to check the torque after a couple days of driving, so they have a functional clue...
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      11-27-2012, 08:50 PM   #42
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I always use torque wrench....since i switch rims at home between winter/summer sets i get paranoid that they will go flying off in middle of the highway so i check like once every few weeks to make sure it didn't get loose.
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      11-28-2012, 07:07 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John 070 View Post
I think tire rack does not recommend anti seize on the lugs. They say extreme caution must be used if that's done. It's just a wheel going on a car, why do something that turns it into brain surgery?

I don't see what the purpose would be, it's flirting with danger and definitely affecting the torqued value. Yes, even a good torque wrench can be +/- 3 lbs. at 85 lbs. ft., so why throw it off another 3-4? Now you could be at 79.

The anti seize is so the BMW rim doesn't get stuck to the hub, which it will without. The nuts come off like butter when dry. Again, just imho never, ever, ever, use anti seize on the lugs or on other cars, the nuts. It's playing around introducing risk, with no reward....
Did you actually read my first post. I clearly said " If the manufacturer says not to use never seize the DON't use it.period". and here is what tire rack says

Proper installation requires that the wheel lug torque be set to the recommended specification for your vehicle. These torque specifications can be found in your vehicle's owner's manual, shop repair manual or obtained from your vehicle dealer.

Then I went on to say that if you are using never seize, use it very sparring( when I do use it , I put it on and then wipe it with a rag. You'd have to squeeze your fingers against the stud deep into the threads to get any on your hands.) so that it doesn't get all over the place or interfere with the stretching of the treads. And here is the 2nd paragraph from tirerack

Wheel lug torque specifications are for clean threads that are free of dirt, grit, etc. If applying an anti-seize lubricant, it is important to note it can be applied only on the threads of nuts or bolts. The lubricant must not be used on either seat of the hardware of the wheel. With the seat being the main point of friction where torque is measured, extreme caution must be used if an anti-seize lubricant is applied to the threads as excess can either drip or be pushed onto the lug seat resulting in inaccurate torque values.

Nowhere in that paragraph does it say NOT to use never seize. It says nothing about never seize not being used on threads . They point out that never seize should never dripped or be pushed onto the lug seat because it would give an inaccurate torque value. Which is what I had said.

Yes extreme caution does need to be used as they stated, because they are talking about the improper use of never seize....so they are talking about using it.
As I stated before , my family has owned and operated a heavy equipment business for the last 30+ yrs. I've worked on the huge stuff right down to the small stuff, but I'm always the one that does the brake work on our light duty fleet truck ,right up to our heavy duty service duallies . I do every bit of work I can on all of my personal cars,,brakes included. I only stated that in all my years I have NEVER had a failure or have a lug back off. (Hell we even ran 2 open wheeled supermodifidies that do upwards of a 150 mph on a 5/8th oval and they get never seize on the lugs too). I'm not turning any of this into brain surgery...If the manufacturer says don't use it I don't , but there are lots of times this isn't addressed. I'm going off years of experience and so far it hasn't ever failed me
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      12-06-2012, 11:40 PM   #44
asus389
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So here's a question for you guys. If someone had previously used anti-seize on your lug threads, how do you go about "un-doing" it? Is there something that can be used to clean it off of the lugs and out of the lug holes? Its pretty gooey stuff.
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