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      12-01-2012, 06:59 AM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I used to downshift to slow down but when I started getting professional training in high perforance driving with the Skip Barber Racing School I as told that that is not a good technique. They stressed that the brakes are for slowing the car down and the transmission is for getting the car in the proper gear.

Now when I am driving an MT I will use the brakes to slow the car and will heel and toe downshift and double clutch through the gears as the car slows to a point where I need to be in a lower gear. After driving that way for years it became second nature. Double clutching is totally unnecessary in a car with a fully synchomeshed transmission but I do it because I like to and becuase it keeps me in practice for the track car. The only time I use engine braking is when I am descending a long steep hill.

Coasting in neutral is never a good idea.
See , I was taught different. 2 schools of thought I guess.I was 15 when I was put behind the wheel of my first real racecar( not to sound like a spoiled brat but when I was 8 I was given a sprint car to drive around through the acres we had out back. So I was taught to drive a stick at a very young age) I was already pretty good at trail braking the car to get my back end around through a corner but was told to downshift and letting the engine braking and tranny help set the suspension, get the car pointed the way I wanted to go and back on the gas earlier. Obviously I'm not trail braking every corner. My racing days are done due to a bad motorcycle accident ( posted in the bike thread on here)
Its funny to see you say you double clutch you street cars because I still do the same thing. Old habits die hard. Wish I was still out on the track. I'm in Syracuse NY. Watkins Glenn is about 2 hours away and Monticello is about 4. Have fun out there
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      12-01-2012, 07:16 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straightcashhomie View Post
Why is coasting in neutral never a good idea ?
There is nothing really against coasting in neutral, other than that is cost fuel. If you let your foot off the accelerator, while you're slowing down for a light, for example, the fuel supply will be shut off. Saves quite some fuel if you consider how often you slow down.

If you ever have to make an emergency stop, it is recommended to hit the brakes as hard as you can (keep your foot on the pedal if you feel the resistance) and press the clutch. In that way, the ABS system doesn't interfere with the inertia of the engine.

For normal driving is it highly recommended NOT to downshift. Brakes are for braking. Engine braking is only necessary if the brakes would get hot during continuous braking (steep decent). Brake pads are much cheaper than clutches, synchro's, etc. Also, it allows for a much smoother ride. As a driver, you probably think you're good at it with rev-matching etc. but for passenger, it never feels comfortable.
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      12-01-2012, 07:57 AM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
See , I was taught different. 2 schools of thought I guess.I was 15 when I was put behind the wheel of my first real racecar( not to sound like a spoiled brat but when I was 8 I was given a sprint car to drive around through the acres we had out back. So I was taught to drive a stick at a very young age) I was already pretty good at trail braking the car to get my back end around through a corner but was told to downshift and letting the engine braking and tranny help set the suspension, get the car pointed the way I wanted to go and back on the gas earlier. Obviously I'm not trail braking every corner. My racing days are done due to a bad motorcycle accident ( posted in the bike thread on here)
Its funny to see you say you double clutch you street cars because I still do the same thing. Old habits die hard. Wish I was still out on the track. I'm in Syracuse NY. Watkins Glenn is about 2 hours away and Monticello is about 4. Have fun out there

I think we are both using similar techniques. Brakes are for slowing the car down and the transmission is for getting the car into the proper gear. Before the advent of disc brakes race drivers would downshift to slow down to avoid brake fade. That technique became obsolete many years ago.

The brakes are used to slow the car down and to balance the car (i.e. contact patch management and controlling the weight distribution between the front and rear ends of the car) Also keep in mind that the brakes act on all for wheels and engine braking only acts on the drive wheels which will generally be the rear wheels unless the car has full time AWD.

Using the transmission to slow the car will definitely require rev matching. If the revs aren't matched unless you are well below the limits of the car (and depending on the conditions of the road surface you may be a lot closer to the limits than you think) . If you shift to a lower gear without rev matching the car can slow down rather suddenly. This will cause the rear end to unload and shift weight to the front of the car. The front contact patches will become larger and the rear contact patches will become smaller. The result of this can be Trailing Clutch Oversteer (TCO). In other words the rear end can break loose and this can be very sudden and the car can spin out. The traction control on BMWs can help minimize this but there is a point where you can not get around the laws of physics.

Using the brakes to slow the car and downshifting as the car slows are not mutually exclusive and when this technique is used you will get a certain amount of engine braking but it is the brakes that are doing most of the slowing. Let's take an example where you are driving about 65 MPH in 5th gear on a twisty road and are approaching a turn that will require you to slow down to 30 and downshift from 5th to 3rd. I would apply the brakes and as the car slows to about 50 downshift from 5th to 4th while still applying the brakes. This will require rev matching to be smooth and to keep the car settled and you will need to heel/toe in order to stay on the brakes while you downshift. As the car slows down to about 40 downshift again from 4th to 3rd using the same heel/toe technique. All of the downshifting should be completed before you begin to turn. As the car turns gradually and smoothly "trail" off of the brakes. When you reach the track out point of the turn you can begin to accelerate. The is no point at which you should not be on either the brakes or the throttle even if it is "maintenance throtle". This will keep the suspension loaded and the car settled.

Driving down a long steep hill is another matter altogether and in that case engine braking is the way to go.

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      12-01-2012, 08:30 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
I think we are both using similar techniques. Brakes are for slowing the car down and the transmission is for getting the car into the proper gear. Before the advent of disc brakes race drivers would downshift to slow down to avoid brake fade. That technique became obsolete many years ago.

The brakes are used to slow the car down and to balance the car (i.e. contact patch management and controlling the weight distribution between the front and rear ends of the car) Also keep in mind that the brakes act on all for wheels and engine braking only acts on the drive wheels which will generally be the rear wheels unless the car has full time AWD.

Using the transmission to slow the car will definitely require rev matching. If the revs aren't matched unless you are well below the limits of the car (and depending on the conditions of the road surface you may be a lot closer to the limits than you think) . If you shift to a lower gear without rev matching the car can slow down rather suddenly. This will cause the rear end to unload and shift weight to the front of the car. The front contact patches will become larger and the rear contact patches will become smaller. The result of this can be Trailing Clutch Oversteer (TCO). In other words the rear end can break loose and this can be very sudden and the car can spin out. The traction control on BMWs can help minimize this but there is a point where you can not get around the laws of physics.

Using the brakes to slow the car and downshifting as the car slows are not mutually exclusive and when this technique is used you will get a certain amount of engine braking but it is the brakes that are doing most of the slowing. Let's take an example where you are driving about 65 MPH in 5th gear on a twisty road and are approaching a turn that will require you to slow down to 30 and downshift from 5th to 3rd. I would apply the brakes and as the car slows to about 50 downshift from 5th to 4th while still applying the brakes. This will require rev matching to be smooth and to keep the car settled and you will need to heel/toe in order to stay on the brakes while you downshift. As the car slows down to about 40 downshift again from 4th to 3rd using the same heel/toe technique. All of the downshifting should be completed before you begin to turn. As the car turns gradually and smoothly "trail" off of the brakes. When you reach the track out point of the turn you can begin to accelerate. The is no point at which you should not be on either the brakes or the throttle even if it is "maintenance throtle". This will keep the suspension loaded and the car settled.

Driving down a long steep hill is another matter altogether and in that case engine braking is the way to go
.

CA
Yes I guess I should have stressed more in my first post that although I am engine braking , I am on the brakes to slow the car and settle the suspension and yes sometimes I'm modulating the throttle to help set the car where I want it in the corner . I by no means meant to suggest I'm just jamming the car into a progressively lower gear until I come to a stop and at no point am I ever shoving the clutch pedal to the floor and coasting.I learned how to drive a truck without synchros so double clutching and rev matching was necessary,I have had a little experience in a 911 and that taught me to plant the car and keep it planted until I was back firmly on the gas. Even letting off the gas will send your ass end forward very quick. Like I said old habits die hard and when I do get the chance for a spirited drive I still tend to do this , if ther traffic allowes and my motorcycle days had also taught me a lot about trail braking, setting the suspension and getting on the gas earlier. Nice to hear from someone who actually races. I miss it.
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      12-01-2012, 10:54 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by straightcashhomie View Post
How do you guys come to a stop usually? Do you brake with your brakes all of the time or do you let your engine brake, rev match, etc. I usually coast in neutral and use brakes only to brakes with the occasional engine braking. Don't really rev match to slow down much. Figured brake wear would be cheaper than clutch/tranny wear anyday. how about you guys? what do you do and why?
I just coast to a stop, using the brakes as little as possible.

My F-250 truck still has it's original brakes at 57,000 miles.

I consider myself a gentle driver, wanting to go as long as possible before repairs/replacement.
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      12-01-2012, 11:39 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Reznick View Post
SYNCHROS???? slow your car.??..ok I'm not even gonna touch this one Then its pretty obvious you've never drive an early tranny that doesn't have synchros,,,say like , a motorcycle ,a racecar or a large truck.If its not the engine in conjunction with tranny that slows you.so tell me,,,how does the car manage to slow down, cuz its not SYNCHROS! Some people on this forum ,,I swear.


Funny you say I've never driven an "early tranny that doesn't have synchros"

Been riding motorcyles and quads my whole life. Also, my very first car was a Single Turbo 3000GT VR4... and I'm basing my sychro issues from my experience with that. The owner before I found out would try to use the engine as a brake. He would -clutch in- -shift- -clutch out- and the synchros did the work of matching the tranny speed with the engine speed. That in itself is the job of the synchros, otherwise they would grind, which my VR4 started to do. My position on this topic was that the synchros would have to work extra hard to engage the engine at the proper speed which would then allow the engine to be used as a brake. I think you misunderstood me?
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      12-01-2012, 11:43 AM   #51
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I never use engine braking to slow the car down during shifts...that cannot be good for the drive train. Brakes only to slow down, but heel/toe rev match to keep downshifts smooth when driving fast and slowing down quickly.
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      12-01-2012, 12:23 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielGonz View Post


Funny you say I've never driven an "early tranny that doesn't have synchros"

Been riding motorcyles and quads my whole life. Also, my very first car was a Single Turbo 3000GT VR4... and I'm basing my sychro issues from my experience with that. The owner before I found out would try to use the engine as a brake. He would -clutch in- -shift- -clutch out- and the synchros did the work of matching the tranny speed with the engine speed. That in itself is the job of the synchros, otherwise they would grind, which my VR4 started to do. My position on this topic was that the synchros would have to work extra hard to engage the engine at the proper speed which would then allow the engine to be used as a brake. I think you misunderstood me?
I guess you're right. I did misunderstand what you were getting at. I couldn't imagine someone would think your syncros would help slow you down but I've heard some crazy things on here. I get what you are say. But I think if you read the conversation I was having above with captainaudio, I wasn't suggesting you don't use your brakes at all and just jam down through the gears.Doing that ,you will ruin your transmission or at least throw a synchro . I spent a good part of my life racing cars and motorcycles and it was always 2nd nature to row down through the gears when slowing the car allowing the engine to do some of the work. I think maybe we both misunderstood each other. I can't race anymore but I still drive all of my standards this way and I haven't lost a syncro or a tranny yet. I do think there are a lot of people out there that think since they can make a manual transmission go down the road that they know how to drive a stick ( not that I'm saying you're that guy) but it sounds like the guy that owned the the VR4 before you was pretty ham fisted with it. Lets just chalk it up to a misunderstanding.If you've ridden a motorcycle you're whole life , (I have too), then you understand quickly matching your speeds when you're downshifting. Some people have zero concept of this.
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      12-01-2012, 12:47 PM   #53
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If its a dead stop in front i use brakes, if its something like a toll plaza I down shift and use brakes as needed. I dont usually find myself coasting in neutral....maybe by mistake or something.
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      12-01-2012, 12:52 PM   #54
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I still double clutch when I downshift... left over habit from my first MT car which was a Rabbit GTI which had a dead 2nd gear synchro when I bought it and I never bothered to fix it. It was a handy anti-theft device
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      12-01-2012, 02:00 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ctuna View Post
Part of the Joy of having a manual is having it in gear.
And using the brakes as little as possible .
+1

I engine brake all the time, within reason. That's a joy of manual. I coast with the clutch in, and for some long gentle hills on interstates I'll put er in neutral.

To me, brakes are for stopping or sudden slowing, not for reducing speed generally. When you hear the howls of big truckers engine braking, they're not hurting their drivetrain. BMW manual trannys are not delicate and engine braking won't hurt the driveline any more than acceleration hurts it.

It bugs me to be in Interstate traffic and see idiots hitting their brakes every 15 seconds at 75mph on flat grade. Obviously they're driving a slushbox that is admittedly harder (for them) to keep at a steady speed than a manual, but still, it's crazy how many people don't know how to drive. Gas / brake / gas / brake, even the ones who don't tailgate (too badly). Their pads must be toast every 10k.
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      12-01-2012, 03:36 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Digtlartst View Post
+1

I engine brake all the time, within reason. That's a joy of manual. I coast with the clutch in, and for some long gentle hills on interstates I'll put er in neutral.

To me, brakes are for stopping or sudden slowing, not for reducing speed generally. When you hear the howls of big truckers engine braking, they're not hurting their drivetrain. BMW manual trannys are not delicate and engine braking won't hurt the driveline any more than acceleration hurts it.

It bugs me to be in Interstate traffic and see idiots hitting their brakes every 15 seconds at 75mph on flat grade. Obviously they're driving a slushbox that is admittedly harder (for them) to keep at a steady speed than a manual, but still, it's crazy how many people don't know how to drive. Gas / brake / gas / brake, even the ones who don't tailgate (too badly). Their pads must be toast every 10k.
If you are cruising at 75 on flat grade on an Interstate I would assume that you would be in one of the highest (if not the highest) gear. Engine braking would be minimal when you let off the accelerator and certainly no more than would be present in a car with an AT. In order to get a significant amount of engine braking at 75 miles an hour you would have to either be in what is probably too low of a gear or you would be constantly downshifting and rev matching.

If a driver is constantly on or off the brakes it is most likely because he/she is not looking far enough ahead and is depending on the car immediately in front for cues on when to slow down. Sometimes in heavy traffic I will brush the brakes lightly just to fire the brake lights as a warning to the car behind me that I am slowing down.

I drove my Lexux SC300 MT for 120,000 mile using the techniques I described a few posts back. At 120,000 I was still on the original brake pads and the original clutch.

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      12-01-2012, 04:18 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by m@rco View Post
There is nothing really against coasting in neutral, other than that is cost fuel. If you let your foot off the accelerator, while you're slowing down for a light, for example, the fuel supply will be shut off. Saves quite some fuel if you consider how often you slow down.

If you ever have to make an emergency stop, it is recommended to hit the brakes as hard as you can (keep your foot on the pedal if you feel the resistance) and press the clutch. In that way, the ABS system doesn't interfere with the inertia of the engine.

For normal driving is it highly recommended NOT to downshift. Brakes are for braking. Engine braking is only necessary if the brakes would get hot during continuous braking (steep decent). Brake pads are much cheaper than clutches, synchro's, etc. Also, it allows for a much smoother ride. As a driver, you probably think you're good at it with rev-matching etc. but for passenger, it never feels comfortable.
That's exactly what I was about to say!
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      12-01-2012, 06:11 PM   #58
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brakes all the way
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      12-01-2012, 07:08 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
If you are cruising at 75 on flat grade on an Interstate I would assume that you would be in one of the highest (if not the highest) gear. Engine braking would be minimal when you let off the accelerator and certainly no more than would be present in a car with an AT....
You might be surprised. The BMWs I've driven with the AT have a lot of engine braking. I got an X3 loaner once and was afraid I was going to get hit from behind because I literally did not need the brakes (so no brake lights) while in automatic mode until I was just about stopped. On the other hand, some years back I had a couple different experiences driving Ford products with ATs and I can tell you they offered absolutely zero perceptible engine braking including on the highway. We do at least get the benefit of some.
_____

As for me, I like to use some engine braking through downshifting, but am less likely to downshift lower than 3rd unless setting up to accelerate again, and I always rev-match. I don't like being caught in a gear that I have no ability to accelerate in, and really don't like just rolling along in neutral.
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      12-01-2012, 08:25 PM   #60
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The torque converter on the BMW Steptronic (and many other modern ATs) is locked up once the car is in motion so the engine is directly connected to the drive wheels the same as would be the case with an MT. At that point engine braking is going to be a function of the final drive ratio (transmission plus rear end) rather than the type of transmission. If the car is in one of the higher gears in order to get a significant level of engine braking it will be necessary to downshift to a lower gear.


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      12-01-2012, 10:38 PM   #61
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Guess everyone just has their own ways lol. Sometimes I'll just leave it in gear to slow er down then neutral and brake
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      12-01-2012, 10:50 PM   #62
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Perspective from professional high performance driving instuctors in the section below.

As is stated on the road it is a matter of personal preference but IMO if you are driving an MT because you feel it gives more control (a very common argument in the numerous MT vs AT threads here) then why not drive it in a manner that gives the most contol?

From my perspective I prefer to use the same tehniques on the street that I do on the track. It may not be necessary but it keeps me in practice. I found that some habits that I had developed over the years, although not really a problem on the street, were a hinderance to track driving and were very hard habits to break.

================================================== ==========================================


The following is an extract from the Russ Bentley books "Speed Secrets - Profressional Race Driving Techniques"

"Again, the reason for downshifting is not to slow the car. I can't emphasise this enough. That's what brakes are for. Too many drivers try to use the engine compresion braking effect to slow the car. All they really achieve is upsetting the balance of the car and hindering braking effectiveness (if the brakes are right at the limit before locking up and you then engine braking to the rear wheels, you will probably lock up the rear brakes), and more wear and tear on the engine. Brake first, then downshift."


This is from Skip Barber's "Going Faster"

"What downshifting is really for.
We ask this basic question of every racing school class. The most frequent (and incorrect) answer is, "to help slow the car down." In a racecar with good, durable brakes (the majority of modern racecars), downshifting to help slow the car down is unnecessary. The brakes slow the car down. You downshift to get the car in the proper gear to exit the corner."


Now Russ Bentley has raced Indy cars, World Sports cars (including endurance) and is now a race instructor, Skip Barber should need no introduction, but the book I refer to has been written with the assistance of ten instructors from the Skip Barber Racing School.

Brakes slow the car, not the engine; unless your brakes are shot in which case you do not have a lot of choice, but unless you're Moss or Fangio you're not going to win like this.

Problems with Compression braking on the track

1. Its less effective than normal braking.

As Compression braking effects only the driven wheels it will have a major effect on the brake bias of the car; incorrect brake bias (or brake balance) can increase braking distances significantly. Even with 4WD cars the effect of engine braking is limited to the front/rear split of power distribution and will normally affect the brake bias negatively.

It is also not possible to accurately predict the level of Compression braking or modulate it once it has been applied, making accurate and controlled braking almost impossible.


2. It does not give ‘more’ braking force if you are already at the limit

This one is a common myth of Compression braking, that it will allow you to get more braking force for free. While in the distant past braking systems were not powerful enough to exceed the grip limit of tyres (and this is a long way in the past), modern braking systems are more than capable of exceeding the grip levels (measured in straight line braking as the slip percentage) of the tyres.

If you are already at the braking ‘threshold’ adding more braking force through compression braking is just going to exceed the slip percentage and lock the tyres.

(For Example) if when the clutch is released (with the car at 50mph) the tyres are already using the full 10% slip in braking, the additional braking caused by compression braking (20mph vs. 50mph) will exceed the 10% max by a large margin, the rear wheels will lock, the tyres will flat spot, braking distance will actually increase and unless the car is totally straight the major rear bias will possibly cause a loss of control.


When to use Compression braking?
Obviously with road driving compression braking and its use is very much a case of personal preference; however on the track most instructors and drivers share the belief that the disadvantages more than outweigh the advantages (and some would argue that it has no advantages).

However should you find yourself in an older car (historic racing), suffering from brake fade or even brake failure then you have little choice but to use what ever method you can to slow the car.

As Skip Barber’s book says:

”In this case you certainly do use the downshift to slow the car down – but it’s a last resort”
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Last edited by captainaudio; 12-01-2012 at 11:06 PM.
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      12-02-2012, 11:06 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
.
.
.
This is from Skip Barber's "Going Faster"

"What downshifting is really for.
We ask this basic question of every racing school class. The most frequent (and incorrect) answer is, "to help slow the car down." In a racecar with good, durable brakes (the majority of modern racecars), downshifting to help slow the car down is unnecessary. The brakes slow the car down. You downshift to get the car in the proper gear to exit the corner."
.
.
.
Okay, so, I'm curious -- If you're on the track coming up fast on a sharp turn that will require you to be two or three gears lower than you are currently, are they recommending you sequentially downshift as you brake, or just get on the brakes, then skip straight to the required gear when ready?
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      12-02-2012, 11:27 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by R608 View Post
Okay, so, I'm curious -- If you're on the track coming up fast on a sharp turn that will require you to be two or three gears lower than you are currently, are they recommending you sequentially downshift as you brake, or just get on the brakes, then skip straight to the required gear when ready?
Curious also.
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      12-02-2012, 12:21 PM   #65
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yeah, i dont know why you would brake with tranny
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      12-02-2012, 03:31 PM   #66
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Originally Posted by captainaudio View Post
Perspective from professional high performance driving instuctors in the section below.

As is stated on the road it is a matter of personal preference but IMO if you are driving an MT because you feel it gives more control (a very common argument in the numerous MT vs AT threads here) then why not drive it in a manner that gives the most contol?

From my perspective I prefer to use the same tehniques on the street that I do on the track. It may not be necessary but it keeps me in practice. I found that some habits that I had developed over the years, although not really a problem on the street, were a hinderance to track driving and were very hard habits to break.

================================================== ==========================================


The following is an extract from the Russ Bentley books "Speed Secrets - Profressional Race Driving Techniques"

"Again, the reason for downshifting is not to slow the car. I can't emphasise this enough. That's what brakes are for. Too many drivers try to use the engine compresion braking effect to slow the car. All they really achieve is upsetting the balance of the car and hindering braking effectiveness (if the brakes are right at the limit before locking up and you then engine braking to the rear wheels, you will probably lock up the rear brakes), and more wear and tear on the engine. Brake first, then downshift."


This is from Skip Barber's "Going Faster"

"What downshifting is really for.
We ask this basic question of every racing school class. The most frequent (and incorrect) answer is, "to help slow the car down." In a racecar with good, durable brakes (the majority of modern racecars), downshifting to help slow the car down is unnecessary. The brakes slow the car down. You downshift to get the car in the proper gear to exit the corner."


Now Russ Bentley has raced Indy cars, World Sports cars (including endurance) and is now a race instructor, Skip Barber should need no introduction, but the book I refer to has been written with the assistance of ten instructors from the Skip Barber Racing School.

Brakes slow the car, not the engine; unless your brakes are shot in which case you do not have a lot of choice, but unless you're Moss or Fangio you're not going to win like this.

Problems with Compression braking on the track

1. Its less effective than normal braking.

As Compression braking effects only the driven wheels it will have a major effect on the brake bias of the car; incorrect brake bias (or brake balance) can increase braking distances significantly. Even with 4WD cars the effect of engine braking is limited to the front/rear split of power distribution and will normally affect the brake bias negatively.

It is also not possible to accurately predict the level of Compression braking or modulate it once it has been applied, making accurate and controlled braking almost impossible.


2. It does not give ‘more’ braking force if you are already at the limit

This one is a common myth of Compression braking, that it will allow you to get more braking force for free. While in the distant past braking systems were not powerful enough to exceed the grip limit of tyres (and this is a long way in the past), modern braking systems are more than capable of exceeding the grip levels (measured in straight line braking as the slip percentage) of the tyres.

If you are already at the braking ‘threshold’ adding more braking force through compression braking is just going to exceed the slip percentage and lock the tyres.

(For Example) if when the clutch is released (with the car at 50mph) the tyres are already using the full 10% slip in braking, the additional braking caused by compression braking (20mph vs. 50mph) will exceed the 10% max by a large margin, the rear wheels will lock, the tyres will flat spot, braking distance will actually increase and unless the car is totally straight the major rear bias will possibly cause a loss of control.


When to use Compression braking?
Obviously with road driving compression braking and its use is very much a case of personal preference; however on the track most instructors and drivers share the belief that the disadvantages more than outweigh the advantages (and some would argue that it has no advantages).


However should you find yourself in an older car (historic racing), suffering from brake fade or even brake failure then you have little choice but to use what ever method you can to slow the car.

As Skip Barber’s book says:

”In this case you certainly do use the downshift to slow the car down – but it’s a last resort”
Nice info. I always wish I had the chance to go to Skip Barber before my accident. I don't think it could be much clearer.I was taught by the local track pro. Like I said I think people misunderstood me when I was talking about shift down through gears, but whatever. The only problem I see ,Is that most people will never get behind the wheel of a real race car with a true racing gearbox.Its completely different from even a modified street car for the track.Maybe I'm reading into things wrong but it seems most of the posters on here are actually wondering info people row down through the gears matching the revs and feeling the engine and tranny working or simply or pushing in the clutch at coming to a stop & put it in 1st. I will say, the point above about modern brakes couldn't be more true. Some stock brakes available now or light years ahead of "racing brakes " from ten years ago.

BTW...I'm figuring you have a specific track car.Just wondering what you're running. Not to jack the tread , but you supplied a lot of good info
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