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      12-07-2012, 04:27 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makkan00
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Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
When modeling my Infinities with Qts values of .7 and .48 I noticed a noticeable drop off above 50hz with the higher Q driver. After listening to both I can confirm that. The higher Q driver had very little impact, but better low end extension. The lower Q driver has excellent impact up top and sounds much more controlled (tighter) but lacks a little on the bottom end. However compared to a sealed enclosure it is still night and day.
Kaigoss, which two subs have you compared?
http://www.crutchfield.com/S-hSIBmQ4...fect12-VQ.html
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      12-08-2012, 11:09 AM   #46
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Posted a DIY on cutting the ski-hole:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...2#post13123392
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      12-08-2012, 04:23 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Posted a DIY on cutting the ski-hole:

http://www.e90post.com/forums/showth...2#post13123392

Excellent DIY Just rated it.


I have done 80% of installation yesterday. I have struggled to fit top brace of JL 12W7 due to tight fitting of the sub in that space. It was getting late last night so I had to stop it.

In next few days, I will be done with the installation and will update.
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      12-08-2012, 04:47 PM   #48
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Quote:
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Excellent DIY Just rated it.


I have done 80% of installation yesterday. I have struggled to fit top brace of JL 12W7 due to tight fitting of the sub in that space. It was getting late last night so I had to stop it.

In next few days, I will be done with the installation and will update.
Thanks!

I can't wait to see how you managed to squeeze that sub in there. It had/has to be a nightmare with the way this particular sub is mounted. Do you think the parcel shelf is going to be rigid enough?
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      12-09-2012, 01:58 PM   #49
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Thanks!

I can't wait to see how you managed to squeeze that sub in there. It had/has to be a nightmare with the way this particular sub is mounted. Do you think the parcel shelf is going to be rigid enough?
There you go.
Fitted and working now.



It was nightmare to fit it and being one person on the task is not easy.
Now 20.4 Kg is sitting at the rear deck with MDF board. Considering the dimensions of this sub, you cannot mount it from the top and I had to insert it from the bottom.

Rear parcel shelf is good enough to bear that weight in normal circumtances. I cannot speak about crash testing as I do not have that facility
However MDF reinforces the rear parcel shelf.


I have increased the subsonic filter to 30Hz as I do not want to cook this sub at lower frequencies. I have kept the gain low as well.

Now how does it sound?


Bass is clean, deep and excellent. It gets very loud and sitting at the rear is out of question when playing loud.

Comparing it to 2X12 inch subs in a box.....2X12 subs firing approx 1000W were earth shaking. At lower frequencies, vibrations were so vigorous that it was shaking all four pillars and front dashboard trim. Drawback of this installation was that sound was more confound to rear boot and bit muddled.

With this sub in the rear deck, there is some rattling coming from the central interior light panel and rear number plate (using metallic pressed plates, which needs to go now). This setup does not shake the car so vigorously (may be due to higher sub sonic filter settings or may be because I have kept the gains low), but bass is clear!

Overall pleased with the setup due to clear sound and more space in the trunk.
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      12-09-2012, 02:19 PM   #50
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Nice

You going to keep this now or try more subs?
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      12-09-2012, 04:03 PM   #51
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Hey makkan...would love to hear it! Does the bass go through you?
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      12-09-2012, 04:23 PM   #52
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Nice

You going to keep this now or try more subs?
Mob
I really want to try Fi IB3 as well, and a part of me was wishing to see failure with this setup.

Unfortunately, this setup worked and worked really well. Bass is more than my requirements and if bass boost is turned on, bass from JL sub over rides everything.

IB3 is still on my trial list but Mrs is fed up with my experiments. So I guess I will have to stop myself here.
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      12-09-2012, 04:33 PM   #53
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Hey makkan...would love to hear it! Does the bass go through you?
Mate,
Very hard to compare this to 2X12 subs. 2X12 subs were shaking my car and could be heard from 200 yards. I guess application of Hoffman's Iron law.

With this setup, it is better for the cabin passengers than the people on the road. Sound is a lot clean and deep, but shaking my car less than the other setup.

I am very conservative with the gains at the moment as I do not want to see this sub dying due to mechanical failure.

If you like to hear it, you are more than welcome buddy.
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      12-09-2012, 06:01 PM   #54
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Quote:
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Mob
I really want to try Fi IB3 as well, and a part of me was wishing to see failure with this setup.

Unfortunately, this setup worked and worked really well. Bass is more than my requirements and if bass boost is turned on, bass from JL sub over rides everything.

IB3 is still on my trial list but Mrs is fed up with my experiments. So I guess I will have to stop myself here.
Haha yeah can't have the Mrs annoyed. Well at least your work has paid off and you've got something you're happy with.

What areas of the rear of your car have you deadened, if any?
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      12-10-2012, 06:23 AM   #55
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What areas of the rear of your car have you deadened, if any?
Dynamat Extreme covering the rear speaker shelf.
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      12-10-2012, 09:34 AM   #56
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Well I managed to smoke my Infinity this morning... time to put in the "spare".

Tells me that 500W into a subwoofer that is only capable of handling 400W is not a good thing. Gonna go ahead and order the AE SPB15 now, ahead of schedule LOL.
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      12-10-2012, 11:52 AM   #57
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^^^
Kaigoss
That is the draw back of IB. We should be very careful with the gains and sub sonic filter I guess, otherwise outcome could be 'cooked sub'.

Old pioneer subs are very rigid. I ran single 10 inch pioneer sub with 700-800 watts where it was rated to run on 350 watts.


Cheap Pyle subs are rated good for IB applications as well.
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      12-10-2012, 11:59 AM   #58
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One more thing, I ran few experiments on IB sub with open and closed windows.
On moderate sound volume, there is a sound gain when you open the windows however on full volume, sub starts to roll off quickly with windows are open.

I will be careful not to open the windows / boot when volume is full.
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      12-10-2012, 11:24 PM   #59
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Quote:
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^^^
Kaigoss
That is the draw back of IB. We should be very careful with the gains and sub sonic filter I guess, otherwise outcome could be 'cooked sub'.

Old pioneer subs are very rigid. I ran single 10 inch pioneer sub with 700-800 watts where it was rated to run on 350 watts.


Cheap Pyle subs are rated good for IB applications as well.
Well actually I modeled a bunch of subs yesterday, including your W7, and surprisingly, none of them ever got close to xmax with a 30Hz subsonic filter engaged, even when fed the full Pe (thermal) wattage. But while the subsonic can protect against mechanical damage, it cannot protect against thermal damage. The only way to do that effectively I think is to run a sub and woofer combination where it is physically impossible to feed the sub more watts than what it can handle. In my case I need to look for a Pe rating of 500W or more.
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      12-10-2012, 11:30 PM   #60
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awesome
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      12-11-2012, 12:55 AM   #61
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you persevered, good on u mate, looks awesome, must sound awesome too...does the sub weigh 20 kilos ? is the shelf strong enough to hold this weight? A good DSP is the only thing missing from ur setup now :-)
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      12-11-2012, 02:08 AM   #62
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Kaigoss, would be interesting if you could model the IB3. I'd appreciate that.
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      12-11-2012, 09:09 AM   #63
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Kaigoss, would be interesting if you could model the IB3. I'd appreciate that.
Here you go:



Also the excursion with a 25Hz subsonic filter. Notice how not even the W7 gets much past 20 mm?



With all the reading I have done on this topic in the last few weeks, I have learned that you have to take these graphs with a grain of salt. While they can predict SPL (i.e. how loud they can get at various frequencies), they cannot predict how the subs will sound. I do know however that the Qtc value - the "Q" of the enclosure - will tell you whether or not the sound will be "boomy" or "tight", or somewhere in between. My personal preference is for a more controlled, "fast" sound with good impact, and I have found, through personal experience and feedback from others in the car audio scene who are running IB, that for this to happen your total Q needs to be somewhere in the 0.5 - 0.6 range. Anything closer to, and above 0.7 will start to get a bit too "boomy" for my taste, but others may prefer it. The Qtc system values for each modeled sub can be seen in the individual drivers' boxes.
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      12-11-2012, 01:06 PM   #64
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Thanks for the info

Looks like i'll find out for sure once its in!
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      12-11-2012, 01:21 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaigoss69 View Post
Well actually I modeled a bunch of subs yesterday, including your W7, and surprisingly, none of them ever got close to xmax with a 30Hz subsonic filter engaged, even when fed the full Pe (thermal) wattage. But while the subsonic can protect against mechanical damage, it cannot protect against thermal damage. The only way to do that effectively I think is to run a sub and woofer combination where it is physically impossible to feed the sub more watts than what it can handle. In my case I need to look for a Pe rating of 500W or more.

Very interesting. I always thought that IB sub would die due to mechanical failure. But you pointed out that it is thermal failure which can cook the sub in IB installation.

I looked at your graphs. Couple of things are very intersting especially results for AE SPB 15. Also results for 12W7 are very promising...

As you simulated it in a big box and I wonder with the trunk + windows open (no resistance), would a driver reach its xmax that could lead to mechanical failure?
OR am I extra careful...?

I have tried to look at Pe rating for 12W7 but could not find it on their website....any idea? or Shall I consider its 1000W RMS as Pe?
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      12-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #66
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you persevered, good on u mate, looks awesome, must sound awesome too...does the sub weigh 20 kilos ? is the shelf strong enough to hold this weight? A good DSP is the only thing missing from ur setup now :-)
'Somebody' advised me to go for 12W7 and he was not wrong. More I listen to it, more I enjoy it.
It is 20+ Kg and yes it is sitting at the rear parcel shelf. We do not expect the rear parcel shelf to be that strong but with BMW, yes it holds that weight.

re: DSP....I am old fashioned person and likes RAW music without processing .... So no to DSP for the time being.
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