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      12-06-2012, 10:52 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anielsen71 View Post

DieselDiner
Actually I dont know. I'l ask him when we map the car.
Thanks! I don't think your EGR set up is as bad as ours, but I've read quite a few accounts of carbon fouling in the UK, so presumably blocking it off should be good for your engine's longevity.
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      12-06-2012, 11:29 AM   #24
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There is an egr bypass avaialble for Eurpean spec d's on ebay - there is a thread I started in the UK section. Last I looked no programming was required and no check engine lights in cars that installed it.
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      12-06-2012, 11:53 AM   #25
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Chris, I *think* our EGR set up is more complicated than the EU system, courtesy of our pollution regs. IIRC, our system is controlled by the computer, whereas their system is more mechanical in nature (I think it's vacuum controlled, but can't recall for sure). I might be wrong, it's been a while since I looked.

Anyway, knowing that our ECU differs from the EU ECU is enough reason to give me pause. Did you find out enough in your research to conclude that we should be able to use their set up over here and not get codes?
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      12-06-2012, 12:15 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by DieselDiner View Post
Chris, I *think* our EGR set up is more complicated than the EU system, courtesy of our pollution regs. IIRC, our system is controlled by the computer, whereas their system is more mechanical in nature (I think it's vacuum controlled, but can't recall for sure). I might be wrong, it's been a while since I looked.

Anyway, knowing that our ECU differs from the EU ECU is enough reason to give me pause. Did you find out enough in your research to conclude that we should be able to use their set up over here and not get codes?
sorry my post more directed at anielson who lives in Denmark. I wish there was a similar bypass option available for our d's.
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      12-06-2012, 02:09 PM   #27
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Hi guys
I know from several UK sites that there are some EGR bypass solutions around.
I haven't really thought about doing it.
I resently had my inlate manifold changed, and saw the old one. There was close to no sod or carbon build up. And that is after 204.000km. That said, I drive a lot of highway km and I often floor it. Its almost every time I drive the needle sees 200km/h or more.
That might have something to do with it... :-)
DPF removal pipe on the way to Denmark. Right now at DHL in Glasgow :-)
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      12-06-2012, 02:25 PM   #28
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We'd be happy to make one - can anyone get us a factory DP?
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      12-06-2012, 02:45 PM   #29
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Review of a Canadian doing some DPF removal on his 335d
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=657415

DieselDiner
And you are there I see :-)
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      12-06-2012, 03:27 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by ar design View Post
We'd be happy to make one - can anyone get us a factory DP?
Removing the dpf and installing a downpipe requires reprogramming too. Can AR do that also?
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      12-06-2012, 03:37 PM   #31
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I am def going to do the DPF & EGR removal with a new IC and a good tune to make it all work together. Just waiting for all the parts to make it happen.
I have done the same things to other Diesels and have had great results in power gains, better fuel milage and cooler temps too
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      12-06-2012, 04:00 PM   #32
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Hey cssnms,

I believe (just a guess) that the reason for the gains when removing the DPF is from removing the restriction in the exhaust. If you do this on a stock car, obviously the car has been programmed with the knowledge that there would be a DPF restricting flow. If you add a tune that has been programmed for not having the DPF, they can make the engine flow more air, have more boost, rev higher ETC without causing damage to the DPF or the engine.

Just like with the gas cars, if you put on aftermarket downpipes, not much really happens until you tell the computer that it CAN flow more air now. This is the reason that you can put some bolt ons to the N54s and gain 100 HP or more. The factory has to limit air flow with the factory IC, downpipes, intake, etc.

When I worked at the dealer they started a 335d with no mufflers, no resonators, just the DPF. Still as quiet as can be. That DPF really is an exhaust restriction. And the only reason it is there is to meet the restrictions for what comes out of the exhaust.
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      12-06-2012, 04:47 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Park2670 View Post
Hey cssnms,

I believe (just a guess) that the reason for the gains when removing the DPF is from removing the restriction in the exhaust. If you do this on a stock car, obviously the car has been programmed with the knowledge that there would be a DPF restricting flow. If you add a tune that has been programmed for not having the DPF, they can make the engine flow more air, have more boost, rev higher ETC without causing damage to the DPF or the engine.

Just like with the gas cars, if you put on aftermarket downpipes, not much really happens until you tell the computer that it CAN flow more air now. This is the reason that you can put some bolt ons to the N54s and gain 100 HP or more. The factory has to limit air flow with the factory IC, downpipes, intake, etc.

When I worked at the dealer they started a 335d with no mufflers, no resonators, just the DPF. Still as quiet as can be. That DPF really is an exhaust restriction. And the only reason it is there is to meet the restrictions for what comes out of the exhaust.
I do not doubt the dpf might prove to be a tad restrictive when hp is increased, I just don't believe it's as restrictive as some of you would like to think it is.

The reprogram/tune to remove the dpf is just telling the dme thw dpf is no longer there - not to increase airflow. The increase in exhaust gas/heat is a bi-product of increasing the hp and thus reducing back pressure by increasing the diameter of the downpipe ccan prove to be beneficial under certain circumstances eg significant increase in hp via a tune.

Downpipes/cat removal have proven to yield gains in a turbo charged gas car because they are tuned to yield significant hp increases/running much higher boost - more air in, more air out so a larger diameter downpipe is necessary to take full advantage of the tune. Our diesel engines are tuned to make more power in a different fashion - primarily by increasing the amount of fuel being delivered. This in itself does/will increase exhaust gas temps, so allowing that heat to more easily escape has its" benefits - helps to lower egt's, reduces back pressure and yes as a result I suspect a hp bump.

Like I said, I hope removing the dpf does yield 30hp more, but I suspect it will be far less at the expense of an increase in soot/black smoke output.

Last edited by cssnms; 12-07-2012 at 09:07 AM.
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      12-07-2012, 08:14 AM   #34
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FWIW a friend of mine had the DPF removed and tune added to his truck and the company that did it made him sign a legal release stating that the truck was for offroad use only. Something about the company wanting to shield themselves from legal liability with regards to selling the downpipes.
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      12-07-2012, 09:06 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Socom View Post
FWIW a friend of mine had the DPF removed and tune added to his truck and the company that did it made him sign a legal release stating that the truck was for offroad use only. Something about the company wanting to shield themselves from legal liability with regards to selling the downpipes.
You're right since removing emission control devises is illegal and labeling the mods for "off road" use is certainly one way to mitigate liability.
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      12-07-2012, 09:20 AM   #36
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Chris I beleive that those guys that live in areas where they are going to be tested would not benefit from it, unlike people from Florida and of course you in MURLAND were they are not stringient in testing. correct me if Im wrong i lived in Florida for 10 years
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      12-08-2012, 12:28 PM   #37
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Just for your information gents, as many of you will know we spent countless hours developing our dpf removal kits. I can confirm that on the e90 330d 231hp and 335d 286hp models that fitting the downpipe to a stock car with no software modifications results in a loss of power, not to mention outrageous turbocharger behaviour.

The reason this happens is simple, the reduction in backpressure causes the boost to reach its set limiter much earlier and as power on the diesel vehicles is controlled by injection two things happen here to protect the vehicle... the car will adjust the vanes very slightly(or wastegate depending on model) and reduce injection to limit the boost pressure... A direct result of this is a loss of power.

The DPF flows reasonably well when not blocked but the bigger issue is exhaust gas temperatures... as these particular models have the DPF bolted straight to the turbo, the heatsoak causes EGT's to climb...this has a direct affect on turbo and charge air temperatures.

The engine management system has injection limiters based on exhaust gas temps, intake air temps, backpressure levels etc... limited injection = limited power :-)

I hope you don't mind my input but having invested 500hours plus of dyno time on these models, perhaps this can take some of the guesswork out of it. I'm happy to provide any information that you feel may be helpful.

Best wishes,

Stan

Last edited by ecotuneuk; 12-09-2012 at 06:43 AM.
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      12-08-2012, 06:08 PM   #38
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Hi Stan
Thnx for the explanation.
Can you then confirm that with an optimal mapping, that takes care of the changed backpressure will be a performance gain by removing the DPF and "tell" the engine management that it's gone?
At least that is what I hear from you guys, from Promotec in South Africa and from the tuning my car.
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      12-09-2012, 06:30 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anielsen71 View Post
Hi Stan
Thnx for the explanation.
Can you then confirm that with an optimal mapping, that takes care of the changed backpressure will be a performance gain by removing the DPF and "tell" the engine management that it's gone?
At least that is what I hear from you guys, from Promotec in South Africa and from the tuning my car.
Our pipes are manufactured with specific bends to provide a slight but consistent backpressure. This is then matched to the geometry or duty cycle maps in the software... once this change has been made in the software and the turbo is no longer racing for the boost limiter there is a gain of around 10-15hp on all m57n2 variants.

At this point further software modifications result in enormous power gains.

One thing these engines do not lack at stock settings is airflow... they run a lambda of around 1.25-1.3 standard... for this reason any modifications such as intercoolers etc will give no gain whatsoever... certainly not without further tuning.

Once the downpipe is installed you can really advance the injection timing to give the fuel more time in the cylinder to burn(Where some of your economy improvements come from), the first few degrees of advance actually reduce the EGT as DPF installed cars are set up to keep the DPF very warm as much as possible... think of the positive chain reaction here..:-)

You can then add significantly more fuel with a smokeless result without even asking for more boost, mainly due to the cooler running EGT and charge temp.

When more fuel is injected and the lambda starts to aproach 1.0 you can add more boost and inject more fuel if desired. This is when the party starts :-)

Finishing up with a lambda just over 1.0 means that you have improved the pumping efficiency of the engine by providing the correct amount of air required rather than an excess... additional strain on the turbo to provide more air than is required is done for emissions reasons by the manufacturer but has a real negative effect on the efficiency of the engine and the life of the charger.

We are trying... and failing to be be honest to get hold of a USA downpipe so we can provide an off the shelf solution to our USA customers... so far we have provided this service to a few in the states but they have have had a downpipe manufactured within our guidelines locally.

FYI - 335D Graphs

Injection relative to backpressure in mbar


Injection relative to Exhaust Gas Temp in degree C.
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      12-09-2012, 06:45 AM   #40
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Hi Stan

Hmm...This is very interesting information.
I really look forward to get my downpipe fitted and get the car reampped once again after that :-)
But it makes me wonder....Aren't there any alternative solutions for the particle problem that doesn't have the negative sideeffect of the filter restraining the airflow in the exhaust?
How is the law in the UK? Is it illegal there to remove the DPF on cars that are fitted with this from the factory or?
I think it is here in Denmark and thats why I will keep my OEM downpipe to fit every second year at MOT test.
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      12-09-2012, 07:05 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anielsen71 View Post
Hi Stan

Hmm...This is very interesting information.
I really look forward to get my downpipe fitted and get the car reampped once again after that :-)
But it makes me wonder....Aren't there any alternative solutions for the particle problem that doesn't have the negative sideeffect of the filter restraining the airflow in the exhaust?
How is the law in the UK? Is it illegal there to remove the DPF on cars that are fitted with this from the factory or?
I think it is here in Denmark and thats why I will keep my OEM downpipe to fit every second year at MOT test.
There is a lot of scaremongering going on at the moment regards MOT testing and changes to the test. I have heard of not a single failure, even by our mainland Europe customers.

It has always been the case that tampering with the emissions system "should" make the car fail an MOT however, like HID bulbs and Aero Wipers the cars continue to pass.

(Below is partially extracted from previous replies I have made on this subject... i can't type that fast :-P )

There are a few things to consider here -

1. An MOT tester is not allowed to remove any covers during the test.
2. There is no change to the testing method on diesel vehicles in 2012 however the smoke limit has been reduced by 50% from 3.0 to 1.5
3. A DPF installed BMW will on average score 0.1 with the DPF installed and 0.5 with the DPF OFF. (1/3 of the new low pass limit)
4. There is currently no way of testing for the presence of a catalytic converter on a diesel through exhaust emissions... they don't even produce a reading on the petrol cat tester.
5. Catalytic converters and DPF’s are now available integrated to pipe work seamlessly therefore visually it would be impossible to tell if there is one installed.
6. MOT testers tend to work on many varied vehicles as opposed to multiple brands therefore it would be very difficult and time consuming for an MOT tester to know if a cat had been installed as standard or not. Our 2006 Mercedes Viano never had one from the factory only silencers.
7. CAT's on diesels are for odour control only as they assist in condensing the sulphur vapour however, now that new low sulphur fuels are in place even this is not so much of an issue any more.

Some more info.... >

In diesel engines, conditions in the engine differ from the spark-ignition engine, since power is directly controlled by the fuel supply, rather than by controlling the air supply. Thus when the engine runs at low power, there is more than enough oxygen present to burn the fuel, and diesel engines only make significant amounts of carbon monoxide when running under a load, much less so on turbocharged models where air content is much higher than required.

Diesel exhaust is well known for its characteristic smell; but in Europe this smell in recent years has become much less because the sulphur is now removed from the fuel in the oil refinery, plus the effect of catalytic converters.

I am confident that somewhere in the country there will be a tester who will try to fail a car but it's really as simple as asking him to prove a cat or DPF is not fitted... unless he wants to get the chop saw out, it's impossible and given he only has set tools to use, can't even remove a cover and the smoke limit is completely acceptable, he's hardly going down that road.

The worst possible pollutants are particulates(smoke) and given that our product still leaves a car well below the threshold along with a reduction in overall fuel consumption, we feel we are doing the environment a favour... it's a shame about the red tape and legislation that often has more to do with money making than the environment or the end user.

We do offer different versions of our DPF removal downpipes... our sports cat versions have become more popular recently and is actually what I have fitted to my own X5 35D... This makes absolutely sure that there is no odour and looks quite oem... it's more expensive naturally but there is absolutely no compromise on performance with this part.

X35D DPF OFF Sports Cat
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      12-09-2012, 08:09 AM   #42
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As I read your information, removing the downpipe is the first step of gettings some real power out of this engine.
What you wrote about the missing effect of adding a bigger IC for these cars, I can someway agree.
I had some dynos before fitting the bigger IC at aprox 260hp/606nm and after fitting the IC and a remap, it dynoed 267hp/615nm. Barely any change.
But the drive after fitting the bigger IC has changed. The accelleration from 80km/h and upwards is amazing. A quite different pull when flooring it. And that is with only 7% more fuel added compared to OEM.
I hope to get the pipe fitted and remaped this week, but unfortunately we got at lot of snow here in denmark these days. So testing will not be in ideal conditions :-(

And by the way, thnx for sharing the information :-)
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      12-09-2012, 08:21 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by anielsen71 View Post
As I read your information, removing the downpipe is the first step of gettings some real power out of this engine.
What you wrote about the missing effect of adding a bigger IC for these cars, I can someway agree.
I had some dynos before fitting the bigger IC at aprox 260hp/606nm and after fitting the IC and a remap, it dynoed 267hp/615nm. Barely any change.
But the drive after fitting the bigger IC has changed. The accelleration from 80km/h and upwards is amazing. A quite different pull when flooring it. And that is with only 7% more fuel added compared to OEM.
I hope to get the pipe fitted and remaped this week, but unfortunately we got at lot of snow here in denmark these days. So testing will not be in ideal conditions :-(

And by the way, thnx for sharing the information :-)
You gained 7hp after an intercooler and remap... this surely cant be right...

A 7% increase in injected quantity should result in at least an extra 20hp...

Are you referring to the Ecotune downpipe? There are cheap counterfeits out there to be avoided... manufactured in Czech Republic weighing nearly half a kilo less due to poor gauge steel. The angles for supporting backpressure are also incorrect... the real cheek is they contacted us offering them for less than 100 euro pc. Quite entertaining in all honesty as we couldn't even cover our materials at that price never mind manufacture them :-)
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      12-09-2012, 08:42 AM   #44
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Yep, I ordered your downpipe wedensday and got it Friday.

The 7% was compared to stock. Stock is said to be 231hp/500nm. didn't get a dyno before remapping first time.
Remap only with 7% more fuel gave me aprox 260hp/600Nm. a gain of aprox 30hp/100nm
And after adding the bigger IC we did a remap again with almost no difference on the dyno. But it gave a big change in the way mid accelerations are done :-)
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