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BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > E90 / E92 / E93 3-series Powertrain and Drivetrain Discussions > N54 Turbo Engine / Drivetrain / Exhaust Modifications - 335i > Just another n54 engine build thread



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      12-09-2012, 11:08 AM   #23
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Subscribed, this will be a interesting build
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      12-09-2012, 05:16 PM   #24
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Just a picture of the n54 with no oil pan.
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      12-09-2012, 05:19 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by sammy_0559 View Post
Get a Clutch upgrade. first.. trust me.
Exploring clutch options as we speak, its going to be easy to reach once the motor is out so it would be foolish to do this later.
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      12-09-2012, 05:38 PM   #26
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I drive an Alpina B3 Biturbo, it has Mahle pistons and runs 16,5psi stock with a compression of 9.4:1
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      12-09-2012, 06:38 PM   #27
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I drive an Alpina B3 Biturbo, it has Mahle pistons and runs 16,5psi stock with a compression of 9.4:1
boost is only 1 part of the equation. Alpina lowered compression to provide higher power even with really really shitty gas.
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      12-09-2012, 07:10 PM   #28
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The joke was in reference to the poor customer support afforded by Vishnu. They hardly ever (almost never) return emails requesting support, and although they usually answer the phone, they tend to immediately blame hardware before trying to troubleshoot anything to do with the tune. Many of the issue from inexperienced users are hardware related (misfires from bad plugs or coils), however when they assume everyone calling doesn't know anything about their car it gets frustrating. I along with many other Procede users we have found its easier to rely on the forum or learn how to tune things our self, than get quality service from Vishnu. I think its unreasonable for everyone to expect service like Terry offers (because frankly it is above and beyond any company I have ever heard of/dealt with), but replying to an email should be able to be accomplished within 2 business days rather than never /////rant

Now on to the benefits/differences of twin turbos over a single....twins, depending on how they are sized, will typically spool up quicker reducing lag. The downside is if they aren't big enough they don't continue to make more HP all the way to redline (stock and current hybrid turbos). A large single takes a little longer to spool, however will continue to make more HP to redline. The Stage 3 Vargas is building *I think* will spool up quicker than the single and still be able to push enough air to make power all the way to redline, so it may be a win/win. It probably won't have the peak power potential of the single though. Given enough RPMs, the single should make more peak power. The N54 currently isn't revving out 8-9000 RPMs though so it may not matter for now. On another note though, the Vishnu/FFTEC single isn't running anywhere near its max potential right now. You are basically choosing between low end torque/less lag (twins) or top end power (single). Hope that helps.
Properly sized twins offer just as much top end power as a big single. If you are mostly a 1/4 mile guy, go big single. The are much easier to build and you can spool that big turbo at line and lag doesn't matter. If this is a fun street car or road race. Twins is a better choice IMO. I agree the single has not been pushed to its potential. I am not sure exactly why, if it is tuning issues etc?? But the single kit is solid.
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      12-09-2012, 07:59 PM   #29
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Properly sized twins offer just as much top end power as a big single. If you are mostly a 1/4 mile guy, go big single. The are much easier to build and you can spool that big turbo at line and lag doesn't matter. If this is a fun street car or road race. Twins is a better choice IMO. I agree the single has not been pushed to its potential. I am not sure exactly why, if it is tuning issues etc?? But the single kit is solid.
I think Fueling is being a Pain :/ the LPFP has been a good fix for now. but the HPFP really needs to get upgraded when going any sort of bigger turbo. LOL then the injectors are gonna max out then we will need injector upgrades.
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      12-09-2012, 11:09 PM   #30
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I think Fueling is being a Pain :/ the LPFP has been a good fix for now. but the HPFP really needs to get upgraded when going any sort of bigger turbo. LOL then the injectors are gonna max out then we will need injector upgrades.
Depends on how much power you're looking for. Shiv ran 800 whp on e85 with his custom surge tank. He backed it off a bit for Shift Sector, but was still running 100% e85. I think we haven't hit the cap on the HPFP as long as we can supply the volume it demands. The fact that he was able to hit those numbers are very impressive. I don't know how many people would be looking to run a daily driver what that kind of power, but if I was able to run 600 whp and turn 10's with my daily driver I would be very happy. Considering the vast amount of torque we already have with this platform, this car is a real animal. The n54 has shown to be truly and amazing engine.
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      12-10-2012, 02:41 AM   #31
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My bad, I figured you were asking so you could unleash your wealth of knowledge about what makes a single turbo set-up superior. Cheers man.
All good sir! I just wanted the owners POV
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      12-10-2012, 09:08 AM   #32
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Depends on how much power you're looking for. Shiv ran 800 whp on e85 with his custom surge tank. He backed it off a bit for Shift Sector, but was still running 100% e85. I think we haven't hit the cap on the HPFP as long as we can supply the volume it demands.

I think the HPFP is most certainly the limitation at this point. Terry's logs show it cannot keep up with the demands, even with the Low pressure holding target perfectly. I wish we could get more information from Shiv on what they have done specifically on his car, we see the surge tank and the fuel pump, but have they tried replacing the fuel feed line with something larger from the LPFP to the inlet of the HPFP? Are they running higher than 72psi of fuel pressure on the low side?
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      12-10-2012, 10:17 AM   #33
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I think the HPFP is most certainly the limitation at this point. Terry's logs show it cannot keep up with the demands, even with the Low pressure holding target perfectly. I wish we could get more information from Shiv on what they have done specifically on his car, we see the surge tank and the fuel pump, but have they tried replacing the fuel feed line with something larger from the LPFP to the inlet of the HPFP? Are they running higher than 72psi of fuel pressure on the low side?
Well, I wish I had all the answers and had a better understanding of liquid dynamics, but I don't. I know for our solution, running two LPFPs in series will cause an increase in flow volume without increasing pressure to meet the fuel demand. I posted this in another thread and had someone comment that running them in parallel was a better solution, but what they failed to realize is that doing so is not possible without major modifications to the fueling system which is not feasible. I think it's funny how some people just have nothing better to do than shoot holes in a solution with little to no knowledge of what they are talking about.

As far as I know with Shiv's solution, he still has the stock LPFP that feeds a high pressure racing fuel pump. They have a pressure regulator between that and the surge tank, which holds about 1 liter, to keep from over pressuring the surge tank. Then another pressure regulator to keep from over pressuring the line to the HPFP. It's my understanding he is still using the stock fuel lines.

For everyone who is anti Vishnu, you have to remember this is not a Vishnu solution. FFTEC fabricated this and tested this solution. That shop has produced some of the highest HP EVO's anyone has ever seen. They are not new to the world of high performance cars. Yes this is a new platform for them, but when you look at all other applications of high performance fueling solutions, the surge tank solution has been used for years on high HP fuel injected cars. We just haven't adopted the solution on our platform until now. Just watch, everyone with an opinion without any knowledge of how a surge tank works will try to punch holes through this solution. It won't be until a few people actually start using it will it become more acceptable. But honestly, how many people are going to need a surge tank so they can make 800+ whp? I personally would be happy with 600 whp and hopefully the inline booster can supply the demand.

Two years ago if someone would have told you this engine would be running on 100% e85 making as much HP as upgraded turbos made at that time you would have said that wouldn't be possible due to the limitations of the fueling system. Who's to say in the next two years with big turbos and additional fueling solutions this engine won't be making 1000 whp? We won't know until we try.
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      12-10-2012, 12:08 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wedge1967 View Post
Shiv ran 800 whp on e85 with his custom surge tank.
Is there a dyno of this run?
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      12-10-2012, 12:25 PM   #35
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Is there a dyno of this run?
Yes, but I don't have it to publish. Other than the pictures they posted, I don't think anything else has been released regarding the development. To be honest, I was actually shocked to find out Shiv was running 100% e85 and not race gas for Shift S3ctor. It's an impressive looking setup and it seems to be working because he didn't have any issues making half mile passes and some very impressive speeds. I do know they brought a lot of e85 with them and they burned through it quickly considering Shiv didn't make a lot of passes because he was working on customer cars most of the time.
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      12-10-2012, 12:42 PM   #36
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Hmm I wonder what kind of boost was needed for 800whp.... or what rpms.
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      01-04-2013, 04:59 PM   #37
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Bumping this thread for some advice... looks like I am not going to build the engine as stated before but rather just go back to stock. Here's the question at hand, any issues that anyone could think of that would arise if I were to buy a n54 from a salvaged 335xi and swap it into the 535i?
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      01-04-2013, 05:04 PM   #38
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Bumping this thread for some advice... looks like I am not going to build the engine as stated before but rather just go back to stock. Here's the question at hand, any issues that anyone could think of that would arise if I were to buy a n54 from a salvaged 335xi and swap it into the 535i?
Too bad, why not?
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      01-04-2013, 11:20 PM   #39
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Bumping this thread for some advice... looks like I am not going to build the engine as stated before but rather just go back to stock. Here's the question at hand, any issues that anyone could think of that would arise if I were to buy a n54 from a salvaged 335xi and swap it into the 535i?
the engine should be the same, just move over your injectors coil packs and put new plugs in it. move over the better HPFP starter, i cant really see a major difference between the XI and I. exept transmission i could be wrong

but y u no build?
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      01-04-2013, 11:38 PM   #40
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I read through all the post and was about to subscribe to this thread... until I read OP is just going back to stock
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      01-05-2013, 12:17 AM   #41
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The XI has a wacky oil pan so the front axle can pass through it. So just swap oil pans too. I'm not sure of other minor differences, but you have the original engine so just swap out whatever you need. You can also double check and compare the parts diagrams at RealOEM.com
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      01-06-2013, 12:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdbretz View Post
Now on to the benefits/differences of twin turbos over a single....twins, depending on how they are sized, will typically spool up quicker reducing lag. The downside is if they aren't big enough they don't continue to make more HP all the way to redline (stock and current hybrid turbos). A large single takes a little longer to spool, however will continue to make more HP to redline. The Stage 3 Vargas is building *I think* will spool up quicker than the single and still be able to push enough air to make power all the way to redline, so it may be a win/win. It probably won't have the peak power potential of the single though. Given enough RPMs, the single should make more peak power. The N54 currently isn't revving out 8-9000 RPMs though so it may not matter for now. On another note though, the Vishnu/FFTEC single isn't running anywhere near its max potential right now. You are basically choosing between low end torque/less lag (twins) or top end power (single). Hope that helps.
Sorry dude, but none of that makes sense, for many reasons. There's no reason a single should flow more air than equivalent twins and there's no reason that a single 'can make it to redline' while twins magically can't.
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      01-06-2013, 12:22 AM   #43
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What is the stock compression on the N54? If I were you, I'd run 10.5:1 comp pistons. You should get better off turbo power and a lot better spool up with the turbo's and more power per psi of boost (the turbo's will run in a better efficiency area at a lower boost for the same power you'd get with more boost at 9.5:1 comp). In my stock block Honda S2000, it's comp is 11:1 and I run 35 psi of boost; around 850 whp.
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      01-06-2013, 01:32 AM   #44
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What is the stock compression on the N54? If I were you, I'd run 10.5:1 comp pistons. You should get better off turbo power and a lot better spool up with the turbo's and more power per psi of boost (the turbo's will run in a better efficiency area at a lower boost for the same power you'd get with more boost at 9.5:1 comp). In my stock block Honda S2000, it's comp is 11:1 and I run 35 psi of boost; around 850 whp.
No one has swapped out the internals yet on the N54 because:
  • We still haven't hit the limits of the stock internals (no bent rods or failed pistons)
  • The compression ratio has not been maxxed out on any of the current setups (including Dzenno's 550 WHP RB Turbo setups or Shiv's 600 WHP Single Turbo)

I expect this to change when the Vargas Stage 3 Turbos & ProEFI are both released. Once people start seeing 700-800 WHP & are using a standalone, we're gonna start seeing the OEM internals fail (~3 times the OEM WHP)
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