E90Post
 


N54Tuning.com
 
BMW 3-Series (E90 E92) Forum > BMW E90/E92/E93 3-series General Forums > Regional Forums > UK > UK Off-Topic Discussions > Tragic news in the USA again



Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      12-18-2012, 04:57 PM   #23
acerboo
Brigadier General
England
57
Rep
3,686
Posts

 
Drives: e92 335d lci
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: kent

iTrader: (2)

there is a state in the us where it is against the law NOT to carry a gun. there is zero gun crime by contrast a neighbouring state has high gun crime. remember gun crimes are carried out by criminals not law abiding people. banning guns would not prevent massacres especially inside large buildings, in fact there are far more effective measures that could be taken that would have the same result though less dramatic
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 06:29 PM   #24
Sir_Pigley
Captain
Sir_Pigley's Avatar
United Kingdom
12
Rep
843
Posts

 
Drives: 525d M Sport
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Banbury

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Send a message via Skype™ to Sir_Pigley
Whilst it is true that "people kill people" if this twat had gone into the school armed to the teeth with knives, he would probably have been disarmed or stopped before he had the chance to kill many people. The fact that with a gun you can kill someone almost instantly from a distance is why you end up with so many casualties.

Even more likely is that the knowledge that you're going to be stopped pretty quickly would actually,prevent this from happening in the first place.

There mis no reasonable basis for having guns so readily available and Americans are just too stupid to recognise the fact. The constitution is so sacrosanct to them that it blinds them to common sense.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-18-2012, 08:43 PM   #25
AlanQS
Colonel
AlanQS's Avatar
Scotland
25
Rep
2,524
Posts

 
Drives: 320d SE Coupe
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Indeed, banning guns isn't the answer as the bad guys can always get them but this little twat looked incapable of moving through the underworld trying to find any so the chances are high that were there no legal guns, he wouldn't have been able to kill all those kids.

Yes, in the States, criminals have guns, but it's the nutters who take mummy's assault rifle and shoot 20 children, not the criminals.
__________________
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 02:39 AM   #26
SteveC
Captain
United Kingdom
14
Rep
888
Posts

 
Drives: M135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North East

iTrader: (1)

"Guns don't kill people...."

Every time something like this happens, you hear the same old tired and illogical phrase; "Guns don't kill people; people kill people"

In actual fact, guns don't kill people and generally speaking, people don't kill people; its people with guns who're doing most of the killing.

If you want to build a deck, buy some power tools....very much harder to do it without

If you want to kill lots of people, buy a gun, preferably several, because its a lot harder to do otherwise.

So who is it that wants to kill lots of people? The socially maladjusted and insane. And how do you identify them and prevent them from getting guns? Short of psychologically profiling your entire population its not possible. So the only remaining option is controlling the supply of guns to try and ensure that the nut jobs in society don't have almost free access to an arsenal of deadly weapons.

Giving an entire population virtually uncontrolled access to tools designed specifically to kill, which the majority of guns are, is asking for trouble. Freedom to carry arms has a price and its US children,innocent bystanders and unarmed citizens who are and will continue paying it.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 02:56 AM   #27
phil200tdi
Colonel
phil200tdi's Avatar
United Kingdom
47
Rep
2,635
Posts

 
Drives: 335i M Sport E90 LCI manual
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Aylesbury

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rich1068
Sheps,

So does that mean that the USA is a sicker and more unbalanced society than anywhere else on Earth? That they have a higher proportion of unbalanced, stone cold killers than we do? Or Canada just over the border? The fact that they have millions of registered and unregistered firearms has nothing to do with the gun crime statistics in the USA?
Canada has more guns per capita than the USA.
__________________
Car: 2010 Jaguar XFR (Stock - For now)
Gone but not forgotten: Highly Modified E90 335i LCI M Sport Manual (circa 480BHP/500lb ft)
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 03:10 AM   #28
SteveC
Captain
United Kingdom
14
Rep
888
Posts

 
Drives: M135i
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: North East

iTrader: (1)

Ahhh...Statistics

Quote:
Originally Posted by phil200tdi View Post
Canada has more guns per capita than the USA.
Canada also has virtually the same land mass and 1/10th the population, so by the simple laws of proportion, 1/10th the gun crime and attrocities.

If you want to use stats to support your point, then you need to compare gun crimes per capita, although population density also has a lot to do with it. Spread the same number of guns across 10,000 sq miles of wilderness vs. New York City.....see what I mean....same population, same # of guns, different density. Ahhh the power of statistics
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 03:14 AM   #29
mowflow
Colonel
mowflow's Avatar
Scotland
28
Rep
2,433
Posts

 
Drives: F20 125d
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (2)

I think when most say ban guns what they mean is that at least a bit of gun control might prevent this kind of thing from happening so frequently. Does your average person looking to protect themselves and their property really need a military grade semi automatic assault rifle with laser scope and hollow point rounds? Definitely fucking not.

In reply to APs examples.

Switzerland has national service. This is why there is a gun in nearly every household (nearly all are ex service rifles). The same is true, or was until recently of both Serbia and Yemen which are the second and third highest countries for guns owned. It is also a fact that although it is impressive to say "nearly a gun in every household" it is also fact that Serbia, which is the next closest country to America for number of guns per head of population actually has nearly half the number of guns. 90 guns per 100 resident in America and 50 per 100 in Serbia.

As for Mexico. It's well known that it has one of the largest organised crime problems in the world due to the drug cartels. Organised criminals the world over have guns. The only good point about that is that they generally use them to kill other criminals. Not innocent people and children in schools. There needs to be a distinction between guns in organised crime and guns in the hands of the insane.

At the end of the day, thankfully I don't have to live in America. I just wish they would stop all being so bloody stupid and short sighted and do something for the greater good rather than thinking about their rights as individuals. The classic "guns don't kill people, people kill people" argument is the most ridiculous and unmeasured argument for lax gun control that I have ever heard, and I've probably read it about 100 times over the last week. I've yet to hear or read one argument which makes a valid and reasonable point in favourite of arming a whole nation to the teeth during peace time.

Something worth thinking about. Until the mid 1960s it was English law that every man over the age of 16 should own a long bow and was required, by law to practice with said long bow for at least 1 hour per week. Dare say we have a few people here old enough. Did anyone do it? Just because some piece of paper several hundred years old says something doesn't make it right.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 03:51 AM   #30
A_P
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
20
Rep
1,698
Posts

 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South East

iTrader: (0)

What gives us the right to sit here in our cosy homes and tell a democratic country what they should do in regards to gun law?

Point being is, there are more social and and psychological issues at play. America also has some seriously famous serial killers some of whom preferred the use of knives.

In regards to people not being able to get guns. Are you guys seriously assuming they don't circulate here in the U.K? Where I grew up guns were and still are readily available. You can hire handguns or if u have some money buy one outright.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 04:30 AM   #31
xenon
Major General
xenon's Avatar
England
73
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coventry

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by acerboo View Post
there is a state in the us where it is against the law NOT to carry a gun.
Don't be ridiculous. Which is this un-named state?

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...-2012121753763

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/i...-2012121853883
__________________
Ian
Current: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, Professional Media, Visibility Pack, Reversing Camera, DAB
Previous: 2011 F10 520d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 04:51 AM   #32
phil200tdi
Colonel
phil200tdi's Avatar
United Kingdom
47
Rep
2,635
Posts

 
Drives: 335i M Sport E90 LCI manual
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Aylesbury

iTrader: (1)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveC View Post
Canada also has virtually the same land mass and 1/10th the population, so by the simple laws of proportion, 1/10th the gun crime and attrocities.

If you want to use stats to support your point, then you need to compare gun crimes per capita, although population density also has a lot to do with it. Spread the same number of guns across 10,000 sq miles of wilderness vs. New York City.....see what I mean....same population, same # of guns, different density. Ahhh the power of statistics

The power of statistics indeed - and all from a 2minute google search:

For comparisons to various cities in North America, in 2007 for example, the homicide rate for the city of Toronto was 3.3 per 100,000 people, yet for Detroit (33.8), Atlanta (19.7), Chicago (15.5), San Francisco (13.6), Boston (10.3) and New York City (6.3) it was higher, while it was only marginally lower in Vancouver (3.1), San Jose (2.9) and Montreal (2.6).

Detroit is Toronto's nearest neighbour but has 10x the number of homicides per 100,000 people.
__________________
Car: 2010 Jaguar XFR (Stock - For now)
Gone but not forgotten: Highly Modified E90 335i LCI M Sport Manual (circa 480BHP/500lb ft)

Last edited by phil200tdi; 12-19-2012 at 04:57 AM.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 04:51 AM   #33
mowflow
Colonel
mowflow's Avatar
Scotland
28
Rep
2,433
Posts

 
Drives: F20 125d
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (2)

I agree we don't have the right to say what America should do. Clean your own back yard and all that. However, sometimes it makes sense to sit up and listen to what the rest of the civilised world is saying. All I'm saying listen to the voices that don't have a vested interest in the law. Guns are a HUGE industry in America.

As for guns being readily available in the UK. Some of you lot must live in some right shit holes or be right dodgy bastards. I live in what is regarded one of the more gruesome cities not only in the UK but Europe and guns are rare here, we generally prefer to stab each other.

I've never even heard a gunshot, met anyone that's been shot and have only ever seen one gun that a rather dodgy character I used to know brought over from Germany. Even then he only had 6 rounds for the gun and when they were done he'd be fucked for getting anymore. This is despite, I'm ashamed to admit. Having a slightly dodgy distant past myself and being good friends with several people not currently but previously in Her Majesties custody.

Contrast this to the 7 year old boy from that school that was interviewed on the news at the weekend. At the tender age of 7 he was able to distinguish the gunshots at this incident from the other gunshots that he knows saying "I heard gunshots that didn't sound like our Police gunshots or our Army gunshots or our Ammo control gunshots". Not right that a kid of that age can do that.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 04:57 AM   #34
xenon
Major General
xenon's Avatar
England
73
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coventry

iTrader: (0)

Agreed. Even if they allow the right to bear arms to defend oneself in the home (fair enough) or to go hunting (fair enough, if that's your bag) is there a need to have fully-automatic assault weapons freely available?

Of course even if guns are outlawed entirely, dodgy people would be able to obtain them in the criminal underworld but would a sad, loner nutter know where to get them or know the sort of people in the underworld who could supply them? No.

But if he can just buy one at the local hardware store, just like that....
__________________
Ian
Current: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, Professional Media, Visibility Pack, Reversing Camera, DAB
Previous: 2011 F10 520d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 06:18 AM   #35
A_P
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
20
Rep
1,698
Posts

 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South East

iTrader: (0)

I think a sad lone butter could aquire a gun. I don't live in a shit hole. But guns can be easily aqquired. Its not even about knowing the right people. Its about having money. Ask a kid at school and he will know or know someone who knows an older guy who sells drugs. And that person will know someone who can get a gun. Honestly its not that difficult.

Most cities or large towns will have nicer areas and worser areas.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 06:44 AM   #36
mowflow
Colonel
mowflow's Avatar
Scotland
28
Rep
2,433
Posts

 
Drives: F20 125d
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Glasgow

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by A_P View Post
I think a sad lone butter could aquire a gun. I don't live in a shit hole. But guns can be easily aqquired. Its not even about knowing the right people. Its about having money. Ask a kid at school and he will know or know someone who knows an older guy who sells drugs. And that person will know someone who can get a gun. Honestly its not that difficult.

Most cities or large towns will have nicer areas and worser areas.
Yeah, saw the pics of your M3 and it looked like a nice quiet wee street. Not at all like south central I think most here including myself live in similar areas.

I know several small time drug dealers and I very much doubt any one of them could get me, you or anyone else a gun. A few of them would say they could but that's because a lot of these guys talk shite to make themselves look hard.

No matter what, it's still a shit load more difficult and expensive here than it is in America. And rightly so.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 08:56 AM   #37
rich1068
has left the building
United Kingdom
54
Rep
3,363
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Agree with mowflow. I think the 'if I want a gun I can get one' argument is largely bogus. I believe it's an extension of the largely unfounded fear of crime phenomena pushed by certain parts of the media.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:16 AM   #38
acerboo
Brigadier General
England
57
Rep
3,686
Posts

 
Drives: e92 335d lci
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: kent

iTrader: (2)

Quote:
Originally Posted by xenon View Post
its not ridiculous its a fact but I cant recall the name of the place, they do apparently have one day a year where people are reminded that they must carry a gun by wearing t shirts! if you have knowledge to the contrary I would gladly admit im wrong
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:30 AM   #39
xenon
Major General
xenon's Avatar
England
73
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coventry

iTrader: (0)

Just consider what you're saying. Are you seriously suggesting that there is a state where carrying a firearm is mandatory? What about children? Are they forced to carry a gun or only those over 16? What about the little old lady and the local priest (who presumably is a conscientious objector)? Is he required by law to carry a Glock in his cassock and she a snub-nosed .45 in her wicker basket?

What about the bloke who was arrested for a bar fight? Is he released from the drunk-tank in the morning by the seargent who waves an admonishing finger at him before returning his wallet, keys and .357 Smith & Wesson?

There are plenty of things stated as "fact" on the internet with absolutely no providence or veracity but that has to be the biggest load of nonsense stated as fact that I've ever heard.
__________________
Ian
Current: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, Professional Media, Visibility Pack, Reversing Camera, DAB
Previous: 2011 F10 520d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:36 AM   #40
A_P
Lieutenant Colonel
United Kingdom
20
Rep
1,698
Posts

 
Drives: E46 M3
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: South East

iTrader: (0)

LOL some valid counter points there. Would be pretty insane if it was mandatory by law.

Which state is it? I dont mind sending an email to the towns Mayor to confirm?
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:39 AM   #41
xenon
Major General
xenon's Avatar
England
73
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coventry

iTrader: (0)

It's nonsense, obviously. Would you be arrested for "failing to carry a concealed weapon in public" or would the law require you to carry your weapons holstered with a belt full of bullets like a Mexican bandit?
__________________
Ian
Current: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, Professional Media, Visibility Pack, Reversing Camera, DAB
Previous: 2011 F10 520d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 09:50 AM   #42
Boyd1963
Major
Boyd1963's Avatar
United Kingdom
16
Rep
1,301
Posts

 
Drives: 2011 320d e92
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Bournemouth

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
Sep 2011 E92  [0.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by acerboo View Post
there is a state in the us where it is against the law NOT to carry a gun. there is zero gun crime by contrast a neighbouring state has high gun crime. remember gun crimes are carried out by criminals not law abiding people. banning guns would not prevent massacres especially inside large buildings, in fact there are far more effective measures that could be taken that would have the same result though less dramatic
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...-us-state#data


The state with zero gun crime has got to be Florida or Alabama. Err! Maybe not.
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 10:05 AM   #43
xenon
Major General
xenon's Avatar
England
73
Rep
5,036
Posts

 
Drives: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Coventry

iTrader: (0)

It would also be interesting to know what happens at this un-named state's airports. Do people wishing to fly out of this state (where they must carry a gun) have to drop their firearms into a bucket before they board? Or are they exempt from IATA regulations that affect the rest of the known world and are allowed to continue to carry their guns on-board?

On the same subject, if I arrive at an airport in this state, am I (with no firearms training) issued a gun by an official at arrivals? Can I pick between a pistol or a fully-automatic assault weapon?

Seriously acerboo, have a word!
__________________
Ian
Current: 2013 F10 520d M-Sport, Professional Media, Visibility Pack, Reversing Camera, DAB
Previous: 2011 F10 520d M-Sport, 2008 320i M-Sport Coupe, 2002 325i, 2001 318i valvetronic, 1998 318i, 1996 525i, 1990 Porsche 944S2
Appreciate 0
      12-19-2012, 10:05 AM   #44
rich1068
has left the building
United Kingdom
54
Rep
3,363
Posts

 
Drives: F30 330d M Sport
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Isn't Florida one of the states where you can carry a concealed firearm? How mental is that? Who else here can think of friends, acquaintances, colleagues, employees etc that would fly through a gun check but letting them carry a gun under their coat would be a very bad idea?
Appreciate 0
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:24 PM.




e90post
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST